Salamance's jump from OU to Uber

[DCM]

(I am aware this discussion is taking place in the discussion thread, but figured it'd be worth it to make it's own thread).

Couple of quick things I'd like opinions on.

1) Was the movement a good idea? Why/Why not?

2) What Pokemon do you see on the rise now that salamance is Gone? What do you see on the Decline?

3) Is salamance viable in Ubers?

4) Will stall rule as predicted?

5) What do you see replacing it? Will anything be able to?

 

[cyrus106]

Salamence is a weaker rayquaza, I personally don't see why the hell it was moved to Ubers

 

[Dawn~]

Ubers isn't technically a tier. It's just a banlist for standard.

They moved it because they insist that it's too good for OU.

But what happens now that Salamence is gone? The next best Pokemon gets Uber'd?

 

[F-22]

Your questions are copied/pasted from the Smogon thread.

Anyways, I think the "Salamence is not uber" argument has been done to death; I do not plan on playing this new metagame but obviously stall and Infernape are on the rise, and Heatran will likely supplant Scizor as the #1 Pokemon in OU, a post it has held since September/October 2008 when Platinum was released. It remains to be seen whether the metagame will continue to be Steel-centered; it may well be, but not to the degree it was before as within two months both of the top 10 OU dragons were banned when. They're not an absolute team necessity anymore. Celebi will land in the top 10 with its new toy Nasty Plot, a potential revenger removed so it can run something like Leaf Storm / Earth Power / Recover / Nasty Plot @ LO. Dragonite will also have a predictable rise in usage, but will fail o reach the top 10.

I think of course the topic is whether the circumstances that led to its ban were valid. I didn't agree with Latias' ban but it went at least 3 rounds of suspect testing before being banned, and the selection was a little bit less subjective than it was for the Mence voting. My chief complaint is not that I disagree with an obviously wrong decision but the suspicious circumstances.

So yeah, I won't say more until other people post here.

 

[evkl]

I think perhaps the biggest question to address is "why do we have a banlist?" (As Lycopene noted, Uber is basically the banlist for OU.) And this point seems (to me) to be talked past a lot--we just take the fact that there is a banlist for granted. It exists. But why, exactly? What purpose is it designed to serve?

I think, personally, a banlist should strive to create an open metagame with multiple viable strategies and prevent ridiculous consolidation at the top. Obviously if Arceus was allowed it'd be mandatory on every team if someone wanted to win--same goes for Mewtwo, etc.

In this sense, any Poke that by their presence alone mandates a strategy (or makes a strategy nonviable) should be on the banlist. What constitutes those two could be up for debate, but...that's my philosophy, generally speaking.

 

[Dexington]

The movement was not a good idea. It changes things a lot. Steel types will not be used as much, because they were ideal partners for Mence. Likewise, the Fire/Grass/Water core will be more common with most people running Infernape/Heatran, Shaymin/Celebi and Starmie/Suicune/Gyarados.

Stall will be the dominant style once you get your CRE high enough and face those douchebags at the top, but in the lower levels it should still be entertaining as there will be variety for a little while as people start trying new things.

I see a rise in Breloom, as the best check to him now is Gliscor and he really isn't used that often. Heatran/Infernape will definately go up as well and with them Tentacruel/Starmie/Suicune/Gyarados will go up a little. Scizor will finally go down because people think it's only good as a Mence check, but that's just stupid.

And Dragonite or Flygon will be used to replace Mence, but that won't work really well.

 

[Rev]

I think it's sad that Salamence has gone from having at least four viable and usable sets in OU, to only two sets in Ubers, with both dubbed as only usable in conjunction with Rayquaza.. things like this just kill the diversity of the metagame.

 

[F-22]

evkl brings up a good point; the problem with Smogon policy reviewers is that their focus has shifted from what overcentralizes the metagame (our traditional notion of an uber) to attempting to achieve balance ("ideal metagame" is another term used). As stated before, we cannot achieve true balance, but we can achieve something everyone is content with. I think that is part of the reason why Mence was banned: it doesn't fit into their idea of balance (or bland stall...), but people were fine with it in our imperfect metagame.

 

[Dawn~]

The movement was not a good idea. It changes things a lot. Steel types will not be used as much, because they were ideal partners for Mence. Likewise, the Fire/Grass/Water core will be more common with most people running Infernape/Heatran, Shaymin/Celebi and Starmie/Suicune/Gyarados.

Stall will be the dominant style once you get your CRE high enough and face those douchebags at the top, but in the lower levels it should still be entertaining as there will be variety for a little while as people start trying new things.

I see a rise in Breloom, as the best check to him now is Gliscor and he really isn't used that often. Heatran/Infernape will definately go up as well and with them Tentacruel/Starmie/Suicune/Gyarados will go up a little. Scizor will finally go down because people think it's only good as a Mence check, but that's just stupid.

And Dragonite or Flygon will be used to replace Mence, but that won't work really well.

Um. Celebi obliterates Breloom. Celebi is the BEST Breloom counter. HP Ice > Breloom. And Celebi resists all of Breloom's moves.

Also, your post almost sounds like an argument FOR Salamence's ban. The fact that he changes THIS MUCH could be looked at like he's so good and broken, that the entire Metagame changes completely now that he's gone.

Imagine how much it'd change if we took out Blissey, though.

I think perhaps the biggest question to address is "why do we have a banlist?" (As Lycopene noted, Uber is basically the banlist for OU.) And this point seems (to me) to be talked past a lot--we just take the fact that there is a banlist for granted. It exists. But why, exactly? What purpose is it designed to serve?

I think, personally, a banlist should strive to create an open metagame with multiple viable strategies and prevent ridiculous consolidation at the top. Obviously if Arceus was allowed it'd be mandatory on every team if someone wanted to win--same goes for Mewtwo, etc.

In this sense, any Poke that by their presence alone mandates a strategy (or makes a strategy nonviable) should be on the banlist. What constitutes those two could be up for debate, but...that's my philosophy, generally speaking.

I totally agree with you on the banlist. Salamence does NOT make stall nonviable, therefore, by that logic, Salamence should be OU still. It should not be banned.

Garchomp, on the other hand, I believe should be banned. It's way too powerful.

But Salamence... no. It's not worthy of being banned, it's simply NOT that good.



I can't remember who said it in the other thread, but they said that Salamence was a joke before Garchomp was banned. Flygon and Dragonite were jokes before Salamence was banned.

What now? The same thing is going to happen. At this rate they'll eventually ban Kingdra! Or the Dragon type altogether.

 

[F-22]

Forgot something, when I say "Smogon" I mean the elitists, the policy reviewers, what have you. It's well understood that the regular average member has nothing to do with any of this but just wanted to clarify lol.

@Lycopene: Salamence wasn't necessarily a joke in the Garchomp era, people just used more gimmicky sets like Specsmence and such though it agree that Garchomp outclasses Mence for "sweeper that tears through teams rawr".

Flygon become OU when Garchomp was banned (same typing ooooo!!) but it remained at the bottom of the tier; it was used to beat up on electrics but that's it.


They're more likely to ban Heatran or Jirachi or something along those lines next. Smogon has not announced any intention of ending the suspect process or these bullshit Smogon Councils.

 

[Angad]

I'm just so disappointed in Smogon, I thought they would be better than this.

 

[Dawn~]

Forgot something, when I say "Smogon" I mean the elitists, the policy reviewers, what have you. It's well understood that the regular average member has nothing to do with any of this but just wanted to clarify lol.

@Lycopene: Salamence wasn't necessarily a joke in the Garchomp era, people just used more gimmicky sets like Specsmence and such though it agree that Garchomp outclasses Mence for "sweeper that tears through teams rawr".

Flygon become OU when Garchomp was banned (same typing ooooo!!) but it remained at the bottom of the tier; it was used to beat up on electrics but that's it.


They're more likely to ban Heatran or Jirachi or something along those lines next. Smogon has not announced any intention of ending the suspect process or these bullshit Smogon Councils.

A gimmick is a joke. I know what you mean though, but people would NOT pick Mence over Chomp, and that you have to agree with.

Not a joke, necessarily, but definitely not that good. And now look. Banz0rd.

 

[F-22]

Well, I just took your use of the word joke to mean "omg mence was bullshit no one used it". Usage was always high and it most certainly wasn't as much of a joke as Flygon was. But yeah.

 

[Angad]

Well, I just took your use of the word joke to mean "omg mence was bullshit no one used it". Usage was always high and it most certainly wasn't as much of a joke as Flygon was. But yeah.

Flygon was and still is Garchomp Jr.

 

[Ino-Chan]

(I am aware this discussion is taking place in the discussion thread, but figured it'd be worth it to make it's own thread).

Couple of quick things I'd like opinions on.

1) Was the movement a good idea? Why/Why not?

2) What Pokemon do you see on the rise now that salamance is Gone? What do you see on the Decline?

3) Is salamance viable in Ubers?

4) Will stall rule as predicted?

5) What do you see replacing it? Will anything be able to?

1. I'm not sure. I prefer it gone, but I don't do OU that often.

2. Like said before, Shaymin and other grass types. Also Dragonite and Flygon

3. Not sure. Doesn't Rayquazza outclass it?

4. Nope. It will most likely go up in usage though.

5. I don't think anything will match it, but Dragonite will be the next best thing.

 

[Dawn~]

Well, I just took your use of the word joke to mean "omg mence was bullshit no one used it". Usage was always high and it most certainly wasn't as much of a joke as Flygon was. But yeah.

Yeah, but it was never as high as Chomp.

Basically, compare it to Latias. Both the good dragons were used frequently (a lot of the time on the same team).

 

[Lt.]

1) Was the movement a good idea? Why/Why not?
No, there is no reason for him to be taken out, he was not overpowerd, and he did not drasticly change the playstyle

2) What Pokemon do you see on the rise now that salamance is Gone? What do you see on the Decline?
The ice type is now officialy dead, the 3 remaining dragons, only flygon should have trouble with ice type, Dragonite has enough bulk to survive most ice beams, albeit barly, and a priority to get past revenge ice shards, and kingdra has no ice weakness, hell, even flygon might have something, i wouldn't know, i've never used a flygon

3) Is salamance viable in Ubers?
No, he's as viable as garchomp is, and that's not at all
Ryquaza greatly outclasses him, same typing, and the only thing salamance beats ryquaza on is speed, by 5 points.

4) Will stall rule as predicted?
I doubt it, So long as heatran and breloom remain, i don't thing stall will take over

5) What do you see replacing it? Will anything be able to?
Dragonite. or Flygon, hell, when those 2 eventualy get banned, they's go with kingdra, were gonna go through all the Dragons and Psyedos eventualy, mark my words

 

[LizardMan]

I just think its so funny, how nobody had a problem with Salamence for 3 years, until a Smogon mod/respected member said "Hey, lets make Mence suspect!"

 

[Angad]

I just think its so funny, how nobody had a problem with Salamence for 3 years, until a Smogon mod/respected member said "Hey, lets make Mence suspect!"

Exactly! That hits the nail on the head,

 

[Our Wasted Years]

1) Was the movement a good idea? Why/Why not?
No because the only people that had a problem with it were the ones with the stall teams, or the ones that couldn't figure out how to take it down. I personally think he won't shine in Ubers like Garchomp does, but I can't really judge it since I don't play in that tier.

2) What Pokemon do you see on the rise now that salamance is Gone? What do you see on the Decline?
Shaymin definitely, also Infernape, Flygon, and Dragonite. As for the decline I can see Scizor probably go down.

3) Is salamance viable in Ubers?
Can't really say, I don't play in that tier.

4) Will stall rule as predicted?
lol no.

5) What do you see replacing it? Will anything be able to?
Replace it completely? Nothing. Dragonite and Flyon will try but they CAN'T because they can't really be used like Mence was.