Should pokemon able to learn Gyro Ball also be able to learn Rapid Spin?

[Zeb]

OK, so I saw this on another site, and thought it would be a nice little topic to discuss.

If you battle competitively, you're probably well aware that the number of pokemon who can learn entry hazards (Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic Spikes) is quite large, while the number of pokemon who can learn Rapid Spin (for those who aren't competitively driven, Rapid Spin removes the entry hazards) is really quite abysmal in comparison.

So, to even things out I'm sure we all agree that more Rapid Spinners are needed. There are pokemon who quite clearly should learn the move but don't for some reason. The point about Gyro Ball is quite relevant, as the move's description is:

The user tackles the opponent with a high-speed spin. The slower the user the great the damage.

A high-speed spin. A rapid spin. They both sound like they would require the same technique, don't they?

So, here are the list of pokemon that can learn Gyro Ball but cannot learn Rapid Spin. Obviously some are going to make more sense knowing Rapid Spin than others:

Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff
Magnemite/Magneton/Magnezone
Voltorb/Electrode
Koffing/Weezing
Typhlosion
Miltank
Bronzor/Bronzong
Lickilicky
Ferroseed/Ferrothorn
Geodude/Graveler/Golem
Onix/Steelix
Omanyte/Omastar
Dunsparce
Qwilfish
Shuckle
Magcargo
Lunatone
Solrock
Glalie
Metang/Metagross
Wormadam (Steel)
Drifloon/Drifblim
Tepig/Pignite/Emboar
Munna/Musharna
Woobat/Swoobat
Venipede/Whirlipede/Scolipede
Darumaka/Darmanitan
Solosis/Duosion/Reuniclus
Golett/Golurk

Quite a large list, and like I said, not everything on there seems to make sense knowing Rapid Spin, but Gyro Ball and Rapid Spin seem to need the same technique to be executed, so I think they're plausable.

Also to note is that a lot of the pokemon currently able to learn Rapid Spin, can also learn Gyro Ball.

And some on there stand out as pokemon that would make good spinners. Others... not so much. But the more merrier.

Discuss.

 

[winstein]

Remember that Gyro Ball is a TM, meaning that it's guaranteed to have a wider distribution than Rapid Spin, because the latter haven't got a Move Tutor treatment. However, I do agree that most Pokemon could be great with Rapid Spin.

Not every Pokemon I see on the list would be ideal Rapid Spin learners. For example, Miltank has that Scrappy ability to ensure it removes the entry hazards, which I think would be too much unless you have Ferrothorn (because it punishes spinning), but even then it can heal off that damage. Besides, it's more of a rolling attacker than a spinner, but that's just my opinion. I will list down Pokemon I would love to see with this move:

Glalie - Definitely! It is largely at a huge disadvantage in terms of usefulness compared to Froslass without Moody, because it has a huge movepool advantage over Glalie due to the benefits of being a Ghost-type. Glalie needs this move to differentiate it further, and with it, could function as a flexible Spinner + Spiker.
Voltorb/Electrode - Well, it's alright. Being the fastest Pokemon with this move (since Accelgor, Deoxys and Ninjask aren't listed) is quite beneficial, but what's even beneficial is surprising the spinblocker with a Volt Switch! Forretress can do this too, but Electrode packs a bigger punch with it.
Golett/Golurk - One of the only two Ghost-types listed, a Ghost-type spinner will make things interesting because it has the ability to threaten any spinblocker, and even better is that they are very powerful offensively. If Stealth Rock is added to their movepools, they're good to go.
Drifloon/Drifblim - Another Ghost-type spinner, so it will be decent for them, since they are also immune to the ground! Shame about their Rock weakness, though.
Venipede/Whirlipede/Scolipede - Another in which makes sense in general, and this would make Scolipede a better Pokemon, but the only problem is the weakness to Rock, which is a pity.
Shuckle - Basically, it now has another move to use despite its virtually non-existent offences, besides Knock Off.
Ferroseed/Ferrothorn - Although I would love this family to learn it, I am not sure if it will make Forretress even less viable.
Geodude/Graveler/Golem - Sure, give then something useful.
Lunatone & Solrock - Sure, let's get more Levitating spinners, even if both won't be really popular.
Munna/Musharna - Although they don't seem to be able to learn it logically, it would heighten their status as a supporter even more.
Jigglypuff/Wigglytuff - Another one that seems like illogical learners, but since they're already considered inferior than its pink fairy friends, why not?
Onix/Steelix - Would be awesome.
Magcargo - Even though it doesn't make sense for something like Magcargo to learn it, I think it would make it stand out more, simply because it makes for an unconventional spinner.
Snivy's family - Even though they don't learn Gyro Ball, I think it would be cool for this family to learn it due to their twister-based attacks.



Pokemon that shouldn't have this move:

Miltank - It has Scrappy, making the whole concept of a spinblocker moot.
Wormadam (Steel) - I guess it has to do with the other forms not being able to learn this move.
Metang/Metagross - They're already very strong, so perhaps they could do without it.
Dunsparce & Qwilfish - Don't see them logically having it.
Solosis/Duosion/Reuniclus - They're already powerful attackers, so I would leave them as they are. Besides, I think a Magic Guard spinner might be too good, even though people probably thought Magic Guard + Skill Swap was too good, despite having users with it now.
Omanyte/Omastar - Another case of "I think they're great that they could do without it". In their case, they have access to all forms of entry hazards AND Shell Smash.
Darumaka/Darmanitan - See above, except in their case, it's extremely powerful Attack.
Magnemite/Magneton/Magnezone - It's something I would actually love to see, but I am going to predict that the ability to trap Steel-types and spin hazards would be too good. You don't see natural trappers with this move for a reason, I think.
Bronzor/Bronzong - I imagine that they will be too good with this move because they are already Levitating Pokemon and possess a great support movepool.
Tepig/Pignite/Emboar - Doesn't seem like logical learners, so I guess not.
Typhlosion - Doesn't seem like a logical learner, even though a Fire-type spinner is a great thing to have (Torkoal is the only one so far).
Koffing/Weezing - Levitating spinner is cool, I suppose, but not quite a logical learner.
Woobat/Swoobat - Don't see them having it and using it well, especially when Starmie has a better type combination.
Lickilicky - In an effort to provide Wigglytuff with a niche, I have to say no.


Thanks for reading.

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

It depends on their body portions. other than that, sure. Their needs to be more diversity on rapid spinners, so we don't have to resort to only Starmie, Forretress, and Donphan.

Glalie - Definitely! It is largely at a huge disadvantage in terms of usefulness compared to Froslass without Moody, because it has a huge movepool advantage over Glalie due to the benefits of being a Ghost-type. Glalie needs this move to differentiate it further, and with it, could function as a flexible Spinner + Spiker.

Who in their right mind would want to send out a Glaile to use rapid spin on a hazard move like Stealth Rock that could easily cripple it?

Golett/Golurk - One of the only two Ghost-types listed, a Ghost-type spinner will make things interesting because it has the ability to threaten any spinblocker, and even better is that they are very powerful offensively. If Stealth Rock is added to their movepools, they're good to go.

Please no, fire, ice, flying, and bug types have suffered in last gen's metagame, and we don't want them to be used less in this metagame than before.

 

[winstein]

Glalie - Definitely! It is largely at a huge disadvantage in terms of usefulness compared to Froslass without Moody, because it has a huge movepool advantage over Glalie due to the benefits of being a Ghost-type. Glalie needs this move to differentiate it further, and with it, could function as a flexible Spinner + Spiker.

Who in their right mind would want to send out a Glaile to use rapid spin on a hazard move like Stealth Rock that could easily cripple it?

Just because a Pokemon have a type disadvantage, doesn't mean they shouldn't learn it. Examples of Pokemon with Rapid Spin with a type disadvantage against rock: Torkoal, Cryogonal, Pineco, Anorith/Armaldo and Delibird (double). Some of these Pokemon are still decent users despite their weakness, like Cryogonal (because of recovery and great Special Defence) and Torkoal (great Defence). It boils down to an extra option for them to do something else.

Anyway, the big reason I wanted Glalie to get this move is due to the very big advantage Froslass has in terms of movepool (for example, she gets Thunderbolt, Destiny Bond and Thunder Wave). The latter is blessed with more attacks and support moves that make Glalie pale in comparison, even though Glalie has its share of moves that Froslass couldn't learn (like Earthquake and Gyro Ball). In other words, Glalie should learn more moves that Froslass can't, so that it has certain advantage over her.

Golett/Golurk - One of the only two Ghost-types listed, a Ghost-type spinner will make things interesting because it has the ability to threaten any spinblocker, and even better is that they are very powerful offensively. If Stealth Rock is added to their movepools, they're good to go.

Please no, fire, ice, flying, and bug types have suffered in last gen's metagame, and we don't want them to be used less in this metagame than before.

Stealth Rock might be a hindrance to you, but in the grand scheme of things, it is necessary. Flying-types won't be affected by any other entry hazard otherwise (because the other two are grounded, which they are immune to), Fire-types is a great offensive type, so this move would keep them in check, and Bug-types don't have many weaknesses (one of which is Fire). Only the Ice-types are truly hurt by this because they don't have many resistances.

Besides, it would be interesting to see how a Ghost-type Stealth Rock (and Rapid Spin) user would fare, because we haven't have one of this type yet.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Lord Clowncrete]

I feel that ferrothorn should have rapid spin. Ferroseed is clearly spinning in b/w poke-animations.

It depends on their body portions. other than that, sure. Their needs to be more diversity on rapid spinners, so we don't have to resort to only Starmie, Forretress, and Donphan.

Glalie - Definitely! It is largely at a huge disadvantage in terms of usefulness compared to Froslass without Moody, because it has a huge movepool advantage over Glalie due to the benefits of being a Ghost-type. Glalie needs this move to differentiate it further, and with it, could function as a flexible Spinner + Spiker.

Who in their right mind would want to send out a Glaile to use rapid spin on a hazard move like Stealth Rock that could easily cripple it?

Golett/Golurk - One of the only two Ghost-types listed, a Ghost-type spinner will make things interesting because it has the ability to threaten any spinblocker, and even better is that they are very powerful offensively. If Stealth Rock is added to their movepools, they're good to go.

Please no, fire, ice, flying, and bug types have suffered in last gen's metagame, and we don't want them to be used less in this metagame than before.

As if stealth rock will become more popular just because a couple of more Pokemon get it.

@winstein

I don't feel that foretress will become less viable if ferrothorn got rs. Foretress still has some niches which ferro just can't match like volt switch, a slightly different typing and of course toxic spikes.

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

The only Pokemon who could use Rapid Spin effectively out of those are Bronzong, Metagross and Ferrothorn. The rest just aren't that good Pokemon even with Rapid Spin. Besides, these 3 Pokemon are already REALLY GOOD. I don't think I want to know what would happen if they were to get better.(especially Ferrothorn)

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

Just because a Pokemon have a type disadvantage, doesn't mean they shouldn't learn it. Examples of Pokemon with Rapid Spin with a type disadvantage against rock: Torkoal, Cryogonal, Pineco, Anorith/Armaldo and Delibird (double). Some of these Pokemon are still decent users despite their weakness, like Cryogonal (because of recovery and great Special Defence) and Torkoal (great Defence). It boils down to an extra option for them to do something else.

You do realize that both Cryogonal and Torkoal have low HP, which wastes their highest defenses. It's why Cofagrigus wasn't used much. I understand you really want to help Glalie, but it'll take more than just Rapid Spin to improve him.

Stealth Rock might be a hindrance to you, but in the grand scheme of things, it is necessary. Flying-types won't be affected by any other entry hazard otherwise (because the other two are grounded, which they are immune to), Fire-types is a great offensive type, so this move would keep them in check, and Bug-types don't have many weaknesses (one of which is Fire). Only the Ice-types are truly hurt by this because they don't have many resistances.

Besides, it would be interesting to see how a Ghost-type Stealth Rock (and Rapid Spin) user would fare, because we haven't have one of this type yet.

And because of Stealth Rock, most Pokemon from those types are sent down to the lower tiers where they will be forever ridiculed by elitists and newcomers, and they now must have a secondary type to neutralize damage from Stealth Rock in order to play normally. Keep in mind that Flying and Bug types aren't much of a threat because they're viewed as mediocre (Bug types are still considered as joke characters despite the improvements they had in Gen V), and most fire types are glass cannons, so there isn't need to keep them in check when they're already just as easy to KO as the Ice types.

 

[winstein]

You do realize that both Cryogonal and Torkoal have low HP, which wastes their highest defenses. It's why Cofagrigus wasn't used much. I understand you really want to help Glalie, but it'll take more than just Rapid Spin to improve him.

Cofagrigus' main issue is its lack of reliable recovery, and it didn't even get Pain Split yet (it is possible that a future Move Tutor would be added to remedy this). Low HP isn't very much of an issue for a wall if it has great defences and good recovery. If it is, then why is Skarmory one of the most used Pokemon, even though it has less HP than Cryogonal and Torkoal? Another Pokemon with low HP that manages to be annoying is Dusclops (it has a base HP of 40), thanks to the power of Eviolite and great defences. In addition to this, it has Pain Split to make sure it could stay healthy most of the time.

Yes, you're right. Glalie needs more than Rapid Spin to be useful (besides Moody), which I pointed out in other threads before. I have several moves in my wishlist for that particular Pokemon, like Shell Smash and Icicle Crash. Whether or not it will help it in the long run is another story, but ultimately, if it is more useful than it currently with those moves, I am happy.

Stealth Rock might be a hindrance to you, but in the grand scheme of things, it is necessary. Flying-types won't be affected by any other entry hazard otherwise (because the other two are grounded, which they are immune to), Fire-types is a great offensive type, so this move would keep them in check, and Bug-types don't have many weaknesses (one of which is Fire). Only the Ice-types are truly hurt by this because they don't have many resistances.

Besides, it would be interesting to see how a Ghost-type Stealth Rock (and Rapid Spin) user would fare, because we haven't have one of this type yet.

And because of Stealth Rock, most Pokemon from those types are sent down to the lower tiers where they will be forever ridiculed by elitists and newcomers, and they now must have a secondary type to neutralize damage from Stealth Rock in order to play normally. Keep in mind that Flying and Bug types aren't much of a threat because they're viewed as mediocre (Bug types are still considered as joke characters despite the improvements they had in Gen V), and most fire types are glass cannons, so there isn't need to keep them in check when they're already just as easy to KO as the Ice types.

I am not sure about Flying-types being "not much of a threat". It is a great offensive type (in addition to being a nice defensive type; Fighting resistance is great), and if a Pokemon has Flying STAB and a powerful move, they are threatening. Take Tornadus for example: its STAB Hurricane packs a powerful punch on types that don't resist it (only three types do), and because nothing is immune to Flying attacks, they will take some damage. Staraptor also demonstrates the power of Flying attacks on those that don't resist it, with its great Attack and Reckless to make it even stronger. Honchkrow is in the same boat due to its powerful Brave Bird attacks. Gyarados is slightly different in that it can take advantage of the resistances Flying-type brings (mainly Fighting) to get a free turn. Perhaps they will be much more threatening if Stealth Rock doesn't exist, because keep in mind that Spikes cannot normally affect them.

Fire-types, from what I see, are not as popular now because of the weather. Drizzle is one of the most popular weathers, and this is bad for Fire-types because it weakens their attacks. Add that to how Water-types are generally useful and it might be a contributing factor. Sandstorm is another popular weather, and Tyranitar is the main starter. Tyranitar also happens to be very threatening to many Fire-types because it is a powerful and generally bulky Rock-type. In other words, Stealth Rock is not the only reason Fire-types are not as popular.

I don't understand why Bug-types are considered "joke characters", unless it's your opinion. Weakness to Rock is not the reason, because every type has their own weaknesses. Volcarona certainly isn't a joke character despite its double weakness to Rock thanks to Quiver Dance; Accelgor is super fast, has good Special Attack and a good Final Gambit; Yanmega's offensive potential is great because Tinted Lens make sure resistance is not an issue (unless it's a double resistance); Crustle is a good Pokemon with possession to entry hazards and the ability to use Shell Smash. They don't sound like "joke characters" to me. Yes, perhaps the "Early bugs" had given the type in general this reputation, but it's not proper to generalise a type because of some members; the Bug-type has their own merits, like any other type.


By the way, this will be my last reply to you regarding this subject, because further talk will derail this thread about Gyro Ball and Rapid Spin users. You can reply if you want, but I won't reply to you about what I just said.

Thanks for reading.

 

[rubinek]

When I first saw Ferroseed, I thought "A new spinner? Woot!" only to learn that it doesn't learn the move despite having one of the sickest spinning animations in B/W. =/

After seeing the anime, I also approve of Snivy family learning this move. It doesn't resist Toxic Spikes, but neither does Donphan, and he's a pretty good spinner.

 

[Lord Clowncrete]

Just because a Pokemon have a type disadvantage, doesn't mean they shouldn't learn it. Examples of Pokemon with Rapid Spin with a type disadvantage against rock: Torkoal, Cryogonal, Pineco, Anorith/Armaldo and Delibird (double). Some of these Pokemon are still decent users despite their weakness, like Cryogonal (because of recovery and great Special Defence) and Torkoal (great Defence). It boils down to an extra option for them to do something else.

You do realize that both Cryogonal and Torkoal have low HP, which wastes their highest defenses. It's why Cofagrigus wasn't used much. I understand you really want to help Glalie, but it'll take more than just Rapid Spin to improve him.

Stealth Rock might be a hindrance to you, but in the grand scheme of things, it is necessary. Flying-types won't be affected by any other entry hazard otherwise (because the other two are grounded, which they are immune to), Fire-types is a great offensive type, so this move would keep them in check, and Bug-types don't have many weaknesses (one of which is Fire). Only the Ice-types are truly hurt by this because they don't have many resistances.

Besides, it would be interesting to see how a Ghost-type Stealth Rock (and Rapid Spin) user would fare, because we haven't have one of this type yet.

And because of Stealth Rock, most Pokemon from those types are sent down to the lower tiers where they will be forever ridiculed by elitists and newcomers, and they now must have a secondary type to neutralize damage from Stealth Rock in order to play normally. Keep in mind that Flying and Bug types aren't much of a threat because they're viewed as mediocre (Bug types are still considered as joke characters despite the improvements they had in Gen V), and most fire types are glass cannons, so there isn't need to keep them in check when they're already just as easy to KO as the Ice types.

Ahem, the 2 most used Pokemon in OU are Bug and flying type respectively. Joke characters my ass.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Personally I'd prefer it if Rapid Spin were to become as widespread as possible. Especially a big yes on Miltank. Scrappy + Rapid spin = screw hazards.

A lot of pokémon are in lower tiers for the sole reason that they can't be used anywhere else because of Stealth Rock. And that sucks.