should they do something about all these crappy Normal-type attacks?

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Yamato-san

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is it just me, or are a lot of the Normal-type attacks just plain useless? Now, I'm not gonna berate something like Tackle or Horn Attack, because they work well enough as starter moves (and they especially serve their purpose since almost every Pokemon that can use such attacks, and there are quite a few, start off with them), and their weak power is compensated by a high amount of PP (which could be useful if you, say, enjoy taking long ventures into the wild). I'm more referring to stuff like Razor Wind, Egg Bomb, Mega Punch, etc. When you look at most other types, their list of attacks is actually comparatively low, with each attack serving their basic purpose (including the aforementioned "starter attacks"), especially now with the physical/special split; attacks have another trait that can make them stand apart from one another (so instead of Fire Punch being a weaker Flamethrower, albeit accessible to different Pokemon, it's completely different now that it plays off of a different stat). Normal, however, still seems to be plagued with attacks that are just a poor man's version of one-another.

Now, you might be thinking that a move like Mega Punch isn't that bad, but when you compare it to something like Return or Body Slam, both widely-learned moves, it really has nothing to offer. 80 base power, no extra effects, no higher CH ratios, and its accuracy isn't even 100%? Fuck that. The same goes for Slam, as well as Egg Bomb (which is even more useless since the attack's exclusive to three Pokemon, two of which are part of the same evolution chain that has a completely unusable attack power, with the third having attack that's decent but inferior to its special attack). Cut's another one... I know not every HM can't be as battle-worthy as Surf, but 50 attack and 95% accuracy? That makes you wonder why Pokemon couldn't just use Slash on the field (for that matter, why doesn't Cut have a high CH ratio as well? Most other slicing attacks benefit from that).

And Razor Wind is just pure shit due to its huge drawbacks and little pay-off. No 2-turn attack should have an average base power of 80... hell, if Solar Beam is any indication (in spite of it getting a boost from Sunny Day way back in generation 2), 120 power should be a minimum if it has no other extra effects (at least Dive is slightly popular for its hiding capabilities). Also, 2-turn attacks shouldn't be attacking on the second turn since that only serves to leave you wide open for a switch before you can do anything (at least Hyper Beam could grant a KO before you're a sitting duck), and if they do, they should have a very high attack power to compensate (which is why I wouldn't berate Sky Attack in that regard... plus, Sky Attack could at least work with the Power Herb now). Skull Bash at least gets a higher attack power, and it raises defense while it's in use (why couldn't Razor Wind do something similar like, say, raise special defense? On another screwed-up note, Razor Wind only has 10 PP, Skull Bash has 15), though Skull Bash can't really be deemed a usable attack neither.

Also, all of the attacks I've mentioned tend to be learned at higher levels, which makes them even more useless. I mean at a lower level, something significantly stronger than Tackle but having drawbacks could have some incentive to use, but this? Really, by the time these Pokemon learn such attacks, it's like nobody would give a crap about them since much better options are available. Anyway, I think in the next generation, these attacks should really be tinkered with to make them slightly more usable and/or unique (much like how the draining attacks and Vine Whip got slightly more PP recently).
 
I agree. IMO I think there's no need for any normal moves next gen PERIOD, unless they're (STAB) signature moves. Dark needs some special moves, Dragon could use some moves, and the special types need some more physical moves. Rentorar(Luxray) really needs a good STAB physical attack.

Back on topic; I think the moves are there just to have more options, and for n00bs to use. While those moves are useless, sometimes using a certain strategy they CAN be useful (but you'd have to be a genius to make them useful). So I think they're just their to add bulk to the number of moves.
 
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^ Quick question: who's Rukushio?

On-topic: yeah, I have to agree. Some Normal-type moves are simply crap. I mean, I get that, in the early stages of the game, they're great as 'beginner' moves -- Tackle in particular comes to mind. But once you get into the latter stages of the game, as well as the metagame, they become all but useless.
 
I agree that most normal moves are sucky, but work well in the start of the game. But your forgetting that Return, Body Slam and Hyper Beam are also normal moves that tend to be used a lot ;).
 
I agree also. Return is not that great if you ask me, but frustration can be better if your pokemon is allowed to faint a lot.

I kinda like body slam, but it should go on weight base, heavier the foe, more damage. (depending on the pokemon its using it on too)

Covets alright, I only really use it to covet items of wild pokemon anyway.

Taclke and other moves are good at start but are not good later on in the game when pokemon are at higher levels. Splash? Thats no good unless in a cute contest.

Secret power is good IMO, but not the best move ever. Its best used not in Battle tower challanges to get is full effect though.

Natural Gift I never thought to be anything great, none of my pokemon know this move and I don't think I'd teach them it.

Rapid Spin I found, although good at first, its crap in later stages when a pokemons higher level.

Also, is Thrash a normal type outrage?

I have wondered why some pokemon like Tauros have to be a high level to learn take down. It learns it at lv51 as with Granbull 49, but others such as luvdisc learn at lv14

I'd agree with Razor Wind being crap. If a pokemon uses it on me and my pokemon is on or around its level, I seem to KO the pokemon using it first, or if it does it, it does little damage.
 
I think it's because Normal is more like a miscellaneous type, so all the attacks that wont go elsewhere will be there.

Plus, if they only made moves for competitive sake like return or Body Slam, there wouldn't be any moves designed simply to get you through the game, which most normal type moves are.

Oh, and Thrash is a normal type outrage...
 
Irinya said:
I agree that most normal moves are sucky, but work well in the start of the game. But your forgetting that Return, Body Slam and Hyper Beam are also normal moves that tend to be used a lot ;).
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how was I forgetting that? I was clearly stating that Return and Body Slam (as well as Hyper Beam to an extent) are good moves. In fact, I was using those attacks to make my point on why those other moves sucked.

For that matter, did some of you even read my post correctly? I was not at all insinuating that the Normal-type sucks and should only be used for beginners. I was saying that the Normal-type is plagued with a lot of attacks that're utterly pointless and have had practically nothing to improve on them for four generations (about the only exception I could think of is Skull Bash getting a defensive boost in generation 2... there's also the addition of Power Herb, except I think Sky Attack's the only move that even warrants using up an item like that, and maybe Solar Beam in unfavorable weather). I did, however, bring up beginners to demonstrate how even weaker attacks can have their purposes, but stuff like Razor Wind and Mega Punch just seems to fall into a lukewarm area.

plasticporygon said:
I think it's because Normal is more like a miscellaneous type, so all the attacks that wont go elsewhere will be there.

Plus, if they only made moves for competitive sake like return or Body Slam, there wouldn't be any moves designed simply to get you through the game, which most normal type moves are.

Oh, and Thrash is a normal type outrage...
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once again, I was acknowledging attacks that're simply there to get you through the game (Tackle, etc.). The thing is, these attacks don't even serve that purpose, as by the time you get them, you may just as well just teach your Pokemon Strength if you're looking for a Normal-type attack with that kind of power and better accuracy. Also, can you honestly give me one reason to teach Egg Bomb to the few Pokemon that learn it?

d.aisuke said:
I agree. IMO I think there's no need for any normal moves next gen PERIOD, unless they're (STAB) signature moves. Dark needs some special moves, Dragon could use some moves, and the special types need some more physical moves. Rentorar(Luxray) really needs a good STAB physical attack.
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off-topic, but I'll comment nonetheless. While it is highly ironic that Dark was previously a Special type and now has just a single special attack (not counting Hidden Power), I think Dark Pulse serves its purpose well enough (it's essentially a special Crunch, which has always been seen as the best Dark-type move). Dragon also has some good moves already (Dragon Claw is a widely-learned physical, Dragon Pulse is a widely-learned special, and those more physically inclined but lacking claws can also use Dragon Rush or, courtesy of the new move tutors, Outrage, which are both decent albeit with some drawbacks). I do agree, however, that the elemental types need some better physical moves. The punches being restricted to certain Pokemon is one thing, but why do the fangs have to be barely more powerful than Bite and with slightly less accuracy (trying to make Flame Wheel/Spark look like viable alternatives, I guess)? Also, Rentorar could easily get a good STAB physical (assuming recoil's not a major issue) if they'd just take away Volt Tackle's exclusivity (and because of certain counterparts keeping synchronized with eachother's movesets, this may also be the reason certain Fire-type quadrapeds can't get that Flare Blitz they so desperately need).
 
I personally think that those starter exclusive moves were there simply to differentiate the starters.

But on topic, I think they should split Normal into two or more sub-types...
 
Well i agree that some normal type moves suck but hyper beam and mega kick are really good. both moves do 120 each.

i think fustration is useless. at first yes it's really good but if you make it faint alot then consider to use the move and you win the more the pokemon likes you. keep useing it and it becomes useless it you ask me.

other thing i hate about normal type attack it that they cant hit ghost when ghost pokemon are weak againest normal. the only move i know that can hit a ghost type pokemon is knock off which dosen't really help to win a battle.

that is really all.
 
Correction, Hyper Beam does 150.

Frustration does suck, that's why it's on movesets for WiFi(but Frustration has the same power on Shoddy), Ghost attacks and Dark attacks can hit Ghost hard.
 
battlefreak602 said:
other thing i hate about normal type attack it that they cant hit ghost when ghost pokemon are weak againest normal. the only move i know that can hit a ghost type pokemon is knock off which dosen't really help to win a battle.
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1. How can Ghosts be weak to Normal if Normal type moves don't hit them? Ghosts are immune to Normal, not weak to it.

2. Knock Off is a Dark type move, and can be extremely useful for, say, relieving a tank of their Leftovers, or stealing the Shed Shell off of a Skarmory/Bronzong/Metagross/etc. But, as it's a Dark type move, it's off topic.
 
Yamato-san said:
off-topic, but I'll comment nonetheless. While it is highly ironic that Dark was previously a Special type and now has just a single special attack (not counting Hidden Power), I think Dark Pulse serves its purpose well enough (it's essentially a special Crunch, which has always been seen as the best Dark-type move). Dragon also has some good moves already (Dragon Claw is a widely-learned physical, Dragon Pulse is a widely-learned special, and those more physically inclined but lacking claws can also use Dragon Rush or, courtesy of the new move tutors, Outrage, which are both decent albeit with some drawbacks). I do agree, however, that the elemental types need some better physical moves. The punches being restricted to certain Pokemon is one thing, but why do the fangs have to be barely more powerful than Bite and with slightly less accuracy (trying to make Flame Wheel/Spark look like viable alternatives, I guess)? Also, Rentorar could easily get a good STAB physical (assuming recoil's not a major issue) if they'd just take away Volt Tackle's exclusivity (and because of certain counterparts keeping synchronized with eachother's movesets, this may also be the reason certain Fire-type quadrapeds can't get that Flare Blitz they so desperately need).
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I agree. For in-game purposes, I have hacked Rentorar with Volt-Tackle, but that's besides the point.
I can understand why Volt-Tackle is pika-line exclusive, so I let it go. But they can easily have the same attack and rename it, like they've done before. They really need to expand the move-pool, and make sure every pokemon, or at least it final evolution has 1 GOOD( not Decent) STAB physical and Special attack.
If Rentorar, Booster and Gallop (I know there are plenty of others that should go here I just can't think of them) don't get better STAB moves next gen I may riot. XD


As far as the fang moves; WTF is their point? They do barely any damage(competitively they suck , In-game they're ok), the only reason they're used if they're used is because certain pokemon have no other options. (ie. Booster).

And on the original topic, you have to have shit moves to balance the good moves, just like in society you have to have the poor to balance the rich, becuase if every move is a good move, then there are no bad moves.
 
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Gallop already has Flare Blitz. And because I'm an anarchist, your last paragraph slightly offends me because the poor shouldn't exist at all.
 
My guess as to why such moves exist is that, much like Pokémon, moves tend to change over generations of games, but none of them get "erased" from the games forever. These moves once had a use in RBY when Pokémon move availablity was limited to it's learnt moves leveling up (back when that depended on how late in the game the Pokémon in question was caught) and TMs.

However, as generations of games come and go, some of these moves no longer had a place in the developing metagame. The only solution aside from outright erasing them entirely would be to make these "awful" attacks more and more exclusive to a small number of Pokémon.
 
MetaRobo said:
Gallop already has Flare Blitz. And because I'm an anarchist, your last paragraph slightly offends me because the poor shouldn't exist at all.
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Well, When I say good, I mean with out recoil damage.

Oh, sorry. But Again if there were no poor, then there would be no rich or middle class either.
I like the Joker's kind of anarchy, but that's off topic.
 
PDL said:
My guess as to why such moves exist is that, much like Pokémon, moves tend to change over generations of games, but none of them get "erased" from the games forever. These moves once had a use in RBY when Pokémon move availablity was limited to it's learnt moves leveling up (back when that depended on how late in the game the Pokémon in question was caught) and TMs.

However, as generations of games come and go, some of these moves no longer had a place in the developing metagame. The only solution aside from outright erasing them entirely would be to make these "awful" attacks more and more exclusive to a small number of Pokémon.
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first of all PDL, THANK YOU for being one of the only people in this thread who seemed to understand what the hell it was I was getting at. Second of all, THANK YOU for presenting a pretty good point at that.

But anyway, while I do agree with most of that (I mean, surely Slam would've been quite noteworthy at a time when Pokemon like Pikachu and Utsubot had no better alternatives for a physical attack, at least in their natural movesets), there's still a few holes. After doing a quick look-up, I discovered that the TMs which taught Mega Punch, Razor Wind, and Egg Bomb back in generation 1 were all meant to be bought from the Tamamushi department store, and in the case of the latter two, buying them was the only method to obtain them (you find a Mega Punch TM lying on the ground earlier on, and it might've been pretty useful at the time you got it). Again, the question of "why even bother?" comes up, as even back then, these moves served apparently no purpose.

Now, generation 1 had some pretty shitty TMs as is... Teleport? Honestly. Water Gun was another one, but I've heard someone bring up that it could at least serve its purpose at the time you get it (Mt. Moon... surely you could teach it to one of your Normal-types while you're walking around an area festering with Rock-types that resist most of your low-level Pokemon's physical techniques). But in this case, you're likely able to buy these moves at a point when much better moves are already available (the TMs are pretty pricey, too), and as I said before, Strength could do a much better job as a Normal-type attack (and I don't think there's a major gap between the first time you can access the department store to the time you get HM 04).

And you also bring up a good point that these moves are mostly forgotten and have been simply overlooked over the years, but what I find strange is that Razor Wind doesn't really seem like an attack that they just "forget" about so easily (though I do wonder why they keep neglecting to let Nyula learn it... surely the kamaitachi Pokemon should get to learn the Kamaitachi attack). I mean, when Absol premiered with the rest of generation 3, Razor Wind seemed to be played up as its signature attack (it's hard to tell if that's still the case since Absol doesn't seem to have been promoted much in generation 4 thus far). We also have the anime showing it off a bit (particularly in a recent gym battle), and there's even a team in Pokemon Dungeon 2 who're named after it (with two out of its three members being Pokemon that can learn the attack). So if they're continually bringing it up, why do they leave the attack as being so god damn useless? I mean, a power upgrade (Leaf Blade got one, seemingly to make up for Jukain's signature attack turning physical) or something to make its ridiculous charging more worthwhile shouldn't be that hard to do, should it? Ironically enough, Razor Wind seems to have only gotten more useless in generation 4, since it became a special attack and the majority of the already few Pokemon that learn it are physically inclined.
 
Geez... you know, some people actually do like some of these so called crappy moves. There's nothing wrong with them and if you do want to use them, then don't. That's the wonder of the game. No two pokemon are legally the same.
 
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