Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree.

[Grave-E]

So I think we're all well aware that the anime likes to do it's own thing by now. Some liberties are taken when it comes to the battling side of things, and this can be a factor that's liable to cause a bit of a stir, especially in regards to type charts and which move should or shouldn't effect which monster.

But even so, are there times where you're fine with (or would be fine with if they are yet to try something you have in mind) the show not completely abiding by the rock-paper-scissors rules? Does it involve incorporating a move into some kind of strategy? Or is it simply due to the nature of a move itself ie. A Fire Punch still injuring a water pokemon by virtue of it being a powerful physical blow, or a Hydro Pump propelling a grass type into a wall.

 

[Karamazov]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

I don't mind at all when type effectiveness isn't a big focus. As long as type immunities aren't ignored, it's awesome. It's not impossible for Pokemon with the type distadvantage to win a battle in the game, at least.

I also like it when a Pokemon defeats another Pokemon, despite having a disadvantage. It just goes to show how strong that Pokemon is, and how well it's been trained. Let's say Ash beat Burgh's Leavanny with Tranquill instead of Pikachu. Whoop dee do. Other than giving the bird the match she deserves, it's too obvious and boring. It has a x4 type advantage. At least with Pikachu, the rat has a disadvantage to overcome.

I just wish the anime took type advamtage into account a little more than it does. But not in every single match.

Well, I just blathered on and on about nothing, didn't I?

 

[Winterdaze]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

One of the most common ways of turning type advantages on their head in the games is to teach Pokemon moves that are effective against their weaknesses. I like it when that happens in the anime, because it allows for a believable way for a disadvantaged Pokemon to come out on top. When two Pokemon both have moves that are capable of seriously damaging each other, it really adds to the tension of a battle.

Another nice manoeuvre is using ineffective moves for a tactical purpose. Cabernet's Stoutland luring Palpitoad to let it's guard down with the non-effective Thunder Fang, only to switch to Ice fang was a neat example of this.

 

[Freefall]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

Some consistency wouldn't hurt and that was always missing in regards of this matter. Sometimes super-effective moves seems to be annihilate the foe in the anime and other times... well, you know.

I don't mind these unless they are obviously against nature. The fire punch one is a good example, it came to my mind at first too. It must hurt to take one of those even when you are a <whatever> type. On the other hand, seeing i.e. a water gun doing anything to a (let's say) water or grass type is just wrong. One won't be struggling if I pour him with a hose.

Of course you can't implement the brilliant game mechanics 100% to the anime, that would turn out to be terrible. Also, the whole make up for the type disadvantage thing is loveable, makes sense and kinda gives one of the most serious essences to the show but the balance of physical/special moves and the damage taken (aka effectiveness) in every particular battle is being handled a bit too much random.
In case of they are used in a special way - usually involving the battlefield and surroundings or changing self-moves or the foes' - these stuff are much more easy to believe and accept to the mind. Using them charge-forward/directly is making the noises in my head rise up in most cases.

 

[BugMite]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

Whenever there's strategy involved.

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

If we're talking about the anime just plain ignoring the type chart as opposed to working around it, I'd say any matchup that isn't intuitive. Like, with fire on grass it's pretty obvious why that one type is effective on the other, but what about something like flying on fighting? There's the "have you ever tried to punch a bird?" this, yes, but that applies to flying's resistance to fighting, not flying's effectiveness on fighting, and it's still not even that intuitive. And anyway, the better way to incorporate that would be to have a fighting type having a hard time landing a hit on a Pokemon that's flying. All you can really do for flying on fighting is tell us "oh, flying is good against fighting!" without actually showing us why or how this works. (Yes, that little bit in the Don tournament bothered me, why do you ask?)

Basically, there's a lot of things in the games that don't translate directly into a non-game environment, and the anime would really benefit from either reworking or just ignoring those things. I seem to be the only one who thinks this way, though.

 

[Hellion]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

Honestly, I'm really not hung up on it, as long as they don't go against type immunities. If the battles' well written, it'll be believable, type advantage or not, but if the battle is poorly written, even if the victor has type advantage, it'll still be a poorly written battle. Could be a clever strategy, could be the terrain, but it could also just be a battle that's emotionally charged and where Pokémon and trainer have learned something through the battle, etc.

 

[Cybersai]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

I believe Grovyle KO'ing an Altaria with double Leaf Blade was fine. Even though grass moves won't do crap against a dual dragon/flying type, the way in the anime is its still literally slashing the thing and slamming it into the ground.

I can't remember if that was the Winona Gym battle or against Elite 4 Drake.

 

[Psychotic]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

I believe Grovyle KO'ing an Altaria with double Leaf Blade was fine. Even though grass moves won't do crap against a dual dragon/flying type, the way in the anime is its still literally slashing the thing and slamming it into the ground.

I can't remember if that was the Winona Gym battle or against Elite 4 Drake.

IIRC Ash didn't win one round against Drake so it must have been Winona.

OT: At this point, as long as they are not ignoring immunities(and abilities). I'm fine. IMO I would rather they let the type disadvantages slide and focus on not giving physical based Pokemon special moves and vice versa. I understand its not the games but still....

 

[Bouffalant Herdier]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

I see the Pokemon in the Anime as more durable than their game counterparts, so I'm not too bothered if they can withstand one or two Super Effective moves. Three or more times is when I'm going to have a problem.

I also don't mind the Pokemon with the disadvantage winning if it uses decent strategy, if it's obviously the much stronger combatant of the two, or if realistic physics are used well, an example of this being the aforementioned Grovyle vs Altaria battle, where Grovyle gained a lot of momentum before striking Altaria down with Leaf Blade.

EDIT: Okay, maybe three Super Effective hits wouldn't be enough in some situations, like if the Pokemon has strong defensive characteristics, or if it's using a move like Reflect or Light Screen to lower damage. Otherwise though, the Pokemon is clearly wearing Plot Armour.

 

[Psychotic]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

I see the Pokemon in the Anime as more durable than their game counterparts, so I'm not too bothered if they can withstand one or two Super Effective moves. Three or more times is when I'm going to have a problem.

I also don't mind the Pokemon with the disadvantage winning if it uses decent strategy, if it's obviously the much stronger combatant of the two, or if realistic physics are used well, an example of this being the aforementioned Grovyle vs Altaria battle, where Grovyle gained a lot of momentum before striking Altaria down with Leaf Blade.

This isn't fair at all...

Pokemon are too different to say "it should go down in 3 super effective hits". Even in the games with perfect EV's, IV's and Natures there are situations where it takes 4+ super effective hits to KO.

 

[Ghetsis-Dennis]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

If the Pokemon in question has a move to cover its disadvantage, which is a must in competitive battles.

 

[Geodude]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

If we're talking about the anime just plain ignoring the type chart as opposed to working around it, I'd say any matchup that isn't intuitive. Like, with fire on grass it's pretty obvious why that one type is effective on the other, but what about something like flying on fighting? There's the "have you ever tried to punch a bird?" this, yes, but that applies to flying's resistance to fighting, not flying's effectiveness on fighting, and it's still not even that intuitive. And anyway, the better way to incorporate that would be to have a fighting type having a hard time landing a hit on a Pokemon that's flying. All you can really do for flying on fighting is tell us "oh, flying is good against fighting!" without actually showing us why or how this works. (Yes, that little bit in the Don tournament bothered me, why do you ask?)

I guess you could say that, with Flying against Fighting, a Fighting type would have no way to defend against an air-based attack. A defensive stance would do nothing to help. And one can usually only physically defend against an attack coming from one direction at a time, but with a Flying type, an attack can presumably come from absolutely any direction around or above the opponent. It's like how in a video game if an enemy is well-shielded from the front, their weakness might be behind them, so if you're quick enough to get behind them before they turn around, you can land a hit. Flying would help do that.

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

If we're talking about the anime just plain ignoring the type chart as opposed to working around it, I'd say any matchup that isn't intuitive. Like, with fire on grass it's pretty obvious why that one type is effective on the other, but what about something like flying on fighting? There's the "have you ever tried to punch a bird?" this, yes, but that applies to flying's resistance to fighting, not flying's effectiveness on fighting, and it's still not even that intuitive. And anyway, the better way to incorporate that would be to have a fighting type having a hard time landing a hit on a Pokemon that's flying. All you can really do for flying on fighting is tell us "oh, flying is good against fighting!" without actually showing us why or how this works. (Yes, that little bit in the Don tournament bothered me, why do you ask?)

I guess you could say that, with Flying against Fighting, a Fighting type would have no way to defend against an air-based attack. A defensive stance would do nothing to help. And one can usually only physically defend against an attack coming from one direction at a time, but with a Flying type, an attack can presumably come from absolutely any direction around or above the opponent. It's like how in a video game if an enemy is well-shielded from the front, their weakness might be behind them, so if you're quick enough to get behind them before they turn around, you can land a hit. Flying would help do that.

I guess I can see that, but that's still something more like a strategy-based advantage than a type-based one. Other typed attacks coming from above or wherever would be super-effective on fighting types if this was true, not just flying-types ones, and flying-type moves from in front could be defended from normally. It's a good enough explanation for the type chart, but again, it doesn't directly translate to the anime.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

AIM FOR THE HORN!

Yes I really like it. Shoot me if you want.

 

[Keldeo94]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

Ground moves should be able to hit Flying types. Apart from the obvious Earthquake there is no reason for Flying types or pokemon with Levitate to have a complete immunity against the entire type.

If my big ol level 100 Ground type throws a Mud Bomb at your Lv3 Pidgey that explodes on contact why wouldn't it harm Pidgey???

Also Bonemerang, if I go outside into my garden with the Dog's bone and hit some birds across the head with it, I think I might do some damage, the fact its a bird doesn't mean I can keep constantly hitting it with a weapon and it not take damage.

 

[Infinity Mk-II]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

Technically, resistances and advantages can be easilly overlooked by sheer power. I don't know much of the anime, but even if it does half the damage a powered up already strong attack from a hard hitter can and will potentially take down an opponent without the defense, and similarly tanks and walls specialize in taking hits even from disadvantageous types.

Immunities though, that is probably highly anime-specific and how the move is portrayed. Though I guess in context it would make sense something would be able to bypass an immunity; in Mystery Dungeon, for instance, immunities don't completely neutralize damage. However, bypassing the immunity should be a feat in itself: portraying it as something that requires little effort isn't good.

As for the bone not hitting the bird: I pressume neither Cubone nor Marowak can actually throw it high enough. And mud would have much more effect on land-bound things.

 

[Keldeo94]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

As for the bone not hitting the bird: I pressume neither Cubone nor Marowak can actually throw it high enough.

But the only time a Pokemon is high enough to avoid an attack is when using Fly. A small Pokemon using a punching move wouldn't be able to get as high as something being thrown in the air, and yet it still hits.

And mud would have much more effect on land-bound things.

But if water can damage birds, why wouldn't mud? Also Mud BOMB actually explodes on contact, so a flying type is actually immune to the explosion as well as the actual force of being hit by mud.

 

[Trainer Yusuf]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

I have to disagree for disadvantages being overlooked at certain times, because:
a)They are the single most basic part of the game, period.
b)Disadvantages being overlooked kinda kills the entire point of not only having types, but also overlooks the entire point of certain types in competitive play. For example, we never saw Poison types resisting almost anything, which makes them a much less credible group to use in animé than some of are in competitive play.
Or Steel-types, whose entire point is the fact they resist almost everything in the game.
c)It makes victories less credible. Goes same with the rivals having completely different teams than the ones they used in entire series. It cheapens the victory. Or, in the case of Charge Beam hitting Mammoo and throwing him back to other point of the arena, cheapens the battle.
d)It makes the show less credible, and creating infamous fandom memes. "Pikachu! The horn!"

 

[Almonds]

Re: Situations in which it's OK to overlook type advantages/disadvantages to a degree

Don't really care as long as it's exciting and realistic.