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Starters Discussion/Speculation

Looking forward to Generation X when we get a bear fire-type starter and people are passionately insisting that bears and horses are totally the same thing because they're both mammals.
Or that it's a rabbit or dog because apparently repeating zodiac members is fine before we even have all of them.

Although there's no point in adhering to the zodiac if they're not intending on completing it, because the only reason to stick with it would be to market it in Gen 12. Having repeat members messes that up entirely and a crocodile isn't a snake no matter how much you squint at it.
 
Yeah if Fuecoco doesn’t get serpentine as it evolves, the zodiac is dead. This is coming from someone who loves the zodiac theory.

I want to point out that, at the same time, it’s ridiculous to think they didn’t know what they were doing when choosing 8 animals in a row that at least loosely fit the zodiac. That is beyond coincidence, and to deny that is just as ridiculous as trying to say a chunky crocodile is a snake.

Denying the pattern that existed from, at the very least gens 3-8 (which is when the zodiac theory took hold and gained popularity) and in retrospect, Gen 1, is silly.

Out of the hundreds of animals in the world, 6 in a row fit, with the first ever also fitting and the second one loosely fitting enough. That’s not coincidence. That’s the design team learning of a trend and consciously fitting into the zodiac until they no longer wanted to.

Now if Fuecoco becomes a serpent, THAT’S the design team choosing to keep this going by continuing to include a zodiac animal in the overall line inspiration. So we’ll have to see.
 
Yeah if Fuecoco doesn’t get serpentine as it evolves, the zodiac is dead. This is coming from someone who loves the zodiac theory.

I want to point out that, at the same time, it’s ridiculous to think they didn’t know what they were doing when choosing 8 animals in a row that at least loosely fit the zodiac. That is beyond coincidence, and to deny that is just as ridiculous as trying to say a chunky crocodile is a snake.

Denying the pattern that existed from, at the very least gens 3-8 (which is when the zodiac theory took hold and gained popularity) and in retrospect, Gen 1, is silly.

Out of the hundreds of animals in the world, 6 in a row fit, with the first ever also fitting and the second one loosely fitting enough. That’s not coincidence. That’s the design team learning of a trend and consciously fitting into the zodiac until they no longer wanted to.

Now if Fuecoco becomes a serpent, THAT’S the design team choosing to keep this going by continuing to include a zodiac animal in the overall line inspiration. So we’ll have to see.
I’d say that either way, we’ll get a confirmation on the Zodiac theory being real or fake.

If Fuecoco becomes a serpent it’s clear they’re using the theory for the fire starters, even if some are loose fit and Fuecoco itself doesn’t start as a snake.

If it doesn’t turn into a snake, it means that the theory is dead. A crocodile doesn’t even really resemble a snake, other then both being reptiles. It’ll be the worse fit in any combination we had so far, and it doesn’t make sense to have a double dragon if it turns out to resemble one.

I honestly don’t care either way. As long as I like the final evo, I’m fine with Fuecoco turning in snake, croc, dragon.
 
Yeah if Fuecoco doesn’t get serpentine as it evolves, the zodiac is dead. This is coming from someone who loves the zodiac theory.

I want to point out that, at the same time, it’s ridiculous to think they didn’t know what they were doing when choosing 8 animals in a row that at least loosely fit the zodiac. That is beyond coincidence, and to deny that is just as ridiculous as trying to say a chunky crocodile is a snake.

Denying the pattern that existed from, at the very least gens 3-8 (which is when the zodiac theory took hold and gained popularity) and in retrospect, Gen 1, is silly.

Out of the hundreds of animals in the world, 6 in a row fit, with the first ever also fitting and the second one loosely fitting enough. That’s not coincidence. That’s the design team learning of a trend and consciously fitting into the zodiac until they no longer wanted to.

Now if Fuecoco becomes a serpent, THAT’S the design team choosing to keep this going by continuing to include a zodiac animal in the overall line inspiration. So we’ll have to see.
Even within Gen 3-8, you have to make a stretch to say that Fennekin/Delphox represent dogs. Yeah, the remaining five members who fit the theory flawlessly since Gen 3 is still a lot, but I think it all being just a huge coincidence is still within the realm of probability.
 
I just like the Zodiac theory because it makes prediction and fan designs easier. Without it, it becomes basically impossible to predict fire starters because you're just making complete shots in the dark to every animal that could possibly exist. Which I suppose does bring it more in line with the other starters (Although at least with water you only have to predict between animals that like swimming in water... so far.)
 
Even within Gen 3-8, you have to make a stretch to say that Fennekin/Delphox represent dogs. Yeah, the remaining five members who fit the theory flawlessly since Gen 3 is still a lot, but I think it all being just a huge coincidence is still within the realm of probability.
It’s possible, definitely.

GF flirting with the theory or all of it being a huge coincidence will likely be the only thing we’ll debate post SV, as the theory is going to be either dead or confirmed (to me, at least. Turning Fuecoco from a croc to a snake would feel very intentional).
 
It's also not hard to make arguments as to why they might have settled on certain animals in the design process for the Fire Starters. Like Infernape being Sun Wukong requires it to be a monkey, or a soccer themed starter would bring to mind a rabbit since those are iconic for being fast with powerful legs.
 
theres no similar theory for grass types, is there? i got into it with someone on here about water types being weapons, and i know there used to be 'grass types=extinct animals' but i think thats mostly gone by the wayside. is it just fire types whove got a 'consistent theme'?
 
theres no similar theory for grass types, is there? i got into it with someone on here about water types being weapons, and i know there used to be 'grass types=extinct animals' but i think thats mostly gone by the wayside. is it just fire types whove got a 'consistent theme'?
Supposedly Grass-types are all based on extinct animals, yeah. Which is really easy to always find a fit for, since there's an extinct member of pretty much every animal you could think of.
 
Supposedly Grass-types are all based on extinct animals, yeah. Which is really easy to always find a fit for, since there's an extinct member of pretty much every animal you could think of.
yeah, that just seems silly–its so general as to fit pretty much anything anyone wants. i guess really my question is why is fire the only starter type with a consistent theme? that seems unusual
 
yeah, that just seems silly–its so general as to fit pretty much anything anyone wants. i guess really my question is why is fire the only starter type with a consistent theme? that seems unusual
I think fire has probably just been a coincidence this whole time, and you have to do some stretching to make the whole thing fit anyway. It's unclear if the focus is supposed to be on the first or final evo, because Charmander is decidely not a dragon but Typhlosion definitely isn't a rat (and Cyndaquil isn't even actually a mouse.) And Fennekin/Delphox aren't really dogs, nor are foxes particularly close relatives compared to if they had chosen a wolf or a jackal. You could handwave the foxes a bit, but the whole Charizard/Typhlosion issue still makes it a bad fit.
 
Yeah I don't think the grass starters being extinct animals thing is true. Bulbasaur lines are frogs not dinosaurs like someone else said. And I don't particularly see anything that ties Rillaboom Torterra or Serperior specifically to extinct gorillas tortoises or snakes (Beyond being large for Torterra and Serperior but that hardly counts).
 
Yeah I don't think the grass starters being extinct animals thing is true. Bulbasaur lines are frogs not dinosaurs like someone else said. And I don't particularly see anything that ties Rillaboom Torterra or Serperior specifically to extinct gorillas tortoises or snakes (Beyond being large for Torterra and Serperior but that hardly counts).
Granted, there are extinct species of frogs and toads, I'm sure, but that just further proves how weak the theory is when literally any shoe fits. XD
 
I think fire has probably just been a coincidence this whole time, and you have to do some stretching to make the whole thing fit anyway. It's unclear if the focus is supposed to be on the first or final evo, because Charmander is decidely not a dragon but Typhlosion definitely isn't a rat (and Cyndaquil isn't even actually a mouse.) And Fennekin/Delphox aren't really dogs, nor are foxes particularly close relatives compared to if they had chosen a wolf or a jackal. You could handwave the foxes a bit, but the whole Charizard/Typhlosion issue still makes it a bad fit.
Charizard is a dragon and Cyndaquill is a rat - it's Pokedex entry says it's a fire mouse. Sometimes the pattern applies to one member of the evolution line and not the entire line.

Never saw someone claming Fuecoco and it's supposed evo are 100% snakes. They're just reusing the dragon theme again like they did with Charizard. Maybe they are just saving space for the next 4 fire starters (ox, snake, sheep and horse). At some moment there will be zero signs left, so they're probably buying time now.

Let's be honest, had they named Delphox "Deldog/Delwolf" no one would comply. Also some dog breeds can resemble foxes.
 
Charizard is a dragon and Cyndaquill is a rat - it's Pokedex entry says it's a fire mouse. Sometimes the pattern applies to one member of the evolution line and not the entire line.

Never saw someone claming Fuecoco and it's supposed evo are 100% snakes. They're just reusing the dragon theme again like they did with Charizard. Maybe they are just saving space for the next 4 fire starters (ox, snake, sheep and horse). At some moment there will be zero signs left, so they're probably buying time now.

Let's be honest, had they named Delphox "Deldog/Delwolf" no one would comply. Also some dog breeds can resemble foxes.
Saying that it applies to one member and not the rest is still bending the rules to make it work.

And yes, Cyndaquil's entry calls it a Fire Mouse. But here's the thing about that.
The Japanese word for mouse is nezumi.
The Japanese word for shrew is togarinezumi (essentially "pointy mouse".)
Yet shrews are not mice, nor are they related to mice.

A similar thing happens with Quagsire's category of "Water Fish."
The Japanese word for salamander is sanshō̄o- it comes from sanshō ("japanese pepper") and uo ("fish").
Obviously Quagsire is not in any way a fish. But it is a salamander.

What's happening is that the category names have been pretty directly translated from Japanese and the reference they're actually making has been lost in translation. Cyndaquil is not, nor has it ever been, really considered a mouse.

(For the record, apparently salamanders are called "pepper fish" because they would produce a fluid when threatened that smells like japanese peppers. And of course living in water, they're like fish.)
 
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Charizard is a dragon and Cyndaquill is a rat - it's Pokedex entry says it's a fire mouse. Sometimes the pattern applies to one member of the evolution line and not the entire line.
Cyndaquill's JPN name is literally a play on "Fire Porcupine", the PokéDex listing it as a mouse is likely a case of a pun lost in translation since there are various classifications of the Rodentia genus (which porcupines are part of) such as Jinezumi and Togarinezumi (with Nezumi on its own meaning "mouse"). Besides, even if you think that's too much of a stretch, using the PokéDex is self-defeating since the Fennekin line is classified as the "Fox" Pokémon throughout and not "Dog" like your logic would suggest.

EDIT: Oh, partially sniped it seems on the Cyndaquill part.
 
Saying that it applies to one member and not the rest is still bending the rules to make it work.

And yes, Cyndaquil's entry calls it a Fire Mouse. But here's the thing about that.
The Japanese word for mouse is nezumi.
The Japanese word for shrew is togarinezumi (essentially "pointy mouse".)
Yet shrews are not mice, nor are they related to mice.

A similar thing happens with Quagsire's category of "Water Fish."
The Japanese word for salamander is sanshō̄o- it comes from sanshō ("japanese pepper") and uo ("fish").
Obviously Quagsire is not in any way a fish. It's a salamander.

What's happening is that the category names have been pretty directly translated from Japanese and the reference they're actually making has been lost in translation. Cyndaquil is not, nor has it ever been, really considered a mouse.
Saying that it applies to one member and not the rest is still bending the rules to make it work.

And yes, Cyndaquil's entry calls it a Fire Mouse. But here's the thing about that.
The Japanese word for mouse is nezumi.
The Japanese word for shrew is togarinezumi (essentially "pointy mouse".)
Yet shrews are not mice, nor are they related to mice.

A similar thing happens with Quagsire's category of "Water Fish."
The Japanese word for salamander is sanshō̄o- it comes from sanshō ("japanese pepper") and uo ("fish").
Obviously Quagsire is not in any way a fish. It's a salamander.

What's happening is that the category names have been pretty directly translated from Japanese and the reference they're actually making has been lost in translation. Cyndaquil is not, nor has it ever been, really considered a mouse.
Hedgehog in Japanese is "Harenezumi" which is literally "needle mouse". Going by that name scheme, Cyndaquill, who has fire instead of needles, makes sense as the "Fire Mouse".

The theory is not that the starters are exactly representative of the chinese zodiac, but that they are similiar enough to fit the pattern. Cyndaquill and Typhlosion look close enough to a rat to be more than just a coincidence.
 
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