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Starters Discussion/Speculation

Hedgehog in Japanese is "Harenezumi" which is literally "needle mouse". Going by that name scheme, Cyndaquill, who has fire instead of needles, makes sense as the "Fire Mouse".

The theory is not that the starters are exactly representative of the chinese zodiac, but that they are similiar enough to fit the pattern. Cyndaquill and Typhlosion look close enough to a rat to be more than just a coincidence.
Hedgehogs still aren't mice, and it's the same deal as with shrew.

Cyndaquil and Typhlosion don't look anything like a rat. That's just doing anything to force them to fit the theory.


Gotta say it- the fire zodiac theory is right on par with the "water-types are based on weapons" and "grass-types are extinct animals" theories. Anything fits perfectly if you just bend the rules and squint hard enough.
 
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Hedgehogs still aren't mice, and it's the same deal as with shrew.

Cyndaquil and Typhlosion don't look anything like a rat. That's just doing anything to force them to fit the theory.
Why did the Pokemon Company released Cyndaquill in Pokemon Go for the year of rat then (was released in the same pack with nidorans, rattata, pikachu, etc)? Cyndaquill and Typhlosion fit the rodent pattern. Have you seen the Rattatouille movie? Typhlosion shares the same body plan with Remi.

There are already 3 sources where Cyndaquil is recognised to fit year of the "rat":

1) the twitter;
2) pokemon GO celebrating the year of rat has QUILAVA in the poster, not even cyndaquil;
3) pokemon masters released cyndaquil sync pair for year of the rat.
 
Why did the Pokemon Company released Cyndaquill in Pokemon Go for the year of rat then (was released in the same pack with nidorans, rattata, pikachu, etc)? Cyndaquill and Typhlosion fit the rodent pattern. Have you seen the Rattatouille movie? Typhlosion shares the same body plan with Remi.

There are already 3 sources where Cyndaquil is recognised to fit year of the "rat":

1) the twitter;
2) pokemon GO celebrating the year of rat has QUILAVA in the poster, not even cyndaquil;
3) pokemon masters released cyndaquil sync pair for year of the rat.

I don't see Cyndaquil listed here?
Not here either.

They did release Ethan and Cyndaquil in Masters in 2020, but the event period started before Lunar New Year and ended four days after and made absolutely no mention of the holiday.

I think you were referring to the image used here-
But that's not an official image. And the pokemon unprofessionally pasted all over it come from various sources, including Emolga fanart traced from an anime screenshot.
 
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I don't see Cyndaquil listed here?
Not here either.

They did release Ethan and Cyndaquil in Masters in 2020, but the event period started before Lunar New Year and ended four days after and made absolutely no mention of the holiday.

I think you were referring to the image used here-
But that's not an official image. And the pokemon unprofessionally pasted all over it come from various sources, including Emolga fanart traced from an anime screenshot.
https://twitter.com/corsolanite_/status/1211006184225984513?t=v9R-Cyg9_ep7-CzdMaY-qA&s=19


EM5btHXXYAUi0xa.jpg
 
They did slip it in there, but that artwork also notably features Bidoof, Sandslash and fellow not-really-a-mouse-despite-what-its-category-says Sandshrew, so the mouse/rat connection remains weak.

Also no Typhlosion. So either you have to believe in an arbitrary inconsistency in which stage is supposed to fit the theme, or the whole thing's a dud.
 
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They did slip it in there, but that artwork also notably features Bidoof, Sandslash and fellow not-really-a-mouse-despite-what-its-category-says Sandshrew, so the mouse/rat connection remains weak.

Also no Typhlosion. So either you have to believe in an arbitrary inconsistency in which stage is supposed to fit the theme, or the whole thing's a dud.
I mean......they're all classified as some sort of mouse, whether it be plump mouse or fire mouse, so technically they're all rodent Pokemon. And that would make Typhlosion a rodent by association with Cyndaquil.......I guess? Eh, best not to think about it all too much. Just let people have fun with their theories.
 
I mean......they're all classified as some sort of mouse, whether it be plump mouse or fire mouse, so technically they're all rodent Pokemon. And that would make Typhlosion a rodent by association with Cyndaquil.......I guess? Eh, best not to think about it all too much. Just let people have fun with their theories.
XP Psh alright. As long as we don't try to pass a crocodile off as a snake.
 
Just let people have fun with their theories.
Just saying, but there's a difference between having a headcanon and asserting your theory as fact despite the counter-arguments.

Not accusing anyone here of anything. Just lamenting how tired I am of seeing people around the net, especially on places like YouTube shout down anyone who doesn't recognise the zodiac as gospel.
 
I mean......they're all classified as some sort of mouse, whether it be plump mouse or fire mouse, so technically they're all rodent Pokemon. And that would make Typhlosion a rodent by association with Cyndaquil.......I guess? Eh, best not to think about it all too much. Just let people have fun with their theories.

Technically... they are all rodent Pokemon.

Except Cyndaquil isn't, cuz its based on a Shrew and Typhlosion on a Badger and neither are rodents. Even the other design inspiration for Cyndaquil, the Echidna, aren't rodents.

Although its external appearance is generally that of a long-nosed mouse, a shrew is not a rodent, as mice are. It is, in fact, a much closer relative of hedgehogs and moles;

So the whole Cyndaquil line in itself already destroys the whole Zodiac Theory.

I don't take the Pokedex classifications as face value (Since Sandshrew is also called the Mouse Pokemon, despite being based on a Shrew (Hence the name)
 
If the Zodiac theory has any sort of validity or presence in GF’s mind, it likely started after Gen 2, but possibly later, as they worked on some fire starters that fit the Zodiac perfectly, and they thought Charmander and Cyndaquil’s line could loosely fit.

Still, if this would be true, I’d have opted for a different Pokémon then Fennekin to ‘fit’ the Dog sign in the Chinese Zodiac. I get that both species are part of the Canidae family, and that a fox work way better for the mage/witch theme they worked on for Fennekin line (wish they didn’t, but that’s another matter), but dogs and foxed are very different and have very different ‘roles’ in Chinese and Japanese folklore.

Either way, as I said before, we’ll have some sort of answer in SV. Turning a croc into a snake would be too much of a coincidence, and if it doesn’t, a croc or dragon can’t fit the snake, even loosely. At least to me.

I honestly don’t get, though, the fervor that could be often be found in other sites in discussion about this theory.
 
They did slip it in there, but that artwork also notably features Bidoof, Sandslash and fellow not-really-a-mouse-despite-what-its-category-says Sandshrew, so the mouse/rat connection remains weak.
Yeah the Pokemon art that's supposed to have Pokemon of one animal type never actually keeps entirely to that animal type.
I recall some official art of this same style with cat Pokemon and it included Trubbish who is definitely no cat.
 
They did slip it in there, but that artwork also notably features Bidoof, Sandslash and fellow not-really-a-mouse-despite-what-its-category-says Sandshrew, so the mouse/rat connection remains weak.

Also no Typhlosion. So either you have to believe in an arbitrary inconsistency in which stage is supposed to fit the theme, or the whole thing's a dud.
Take a look:

1651070009139.png


"The first day of the Chinese New Year will be on Saturday, January 25, initiating the Year of the Rat, which means that a new rat/rodent event will be taking place sometime around the 25th". Just a coincidence, huh? Sandshrew isn't a rat, but the Pokémon Company does consider it as such (Rodent, Mouse, whatever). Like I said before, most pokemon creature inspirations are very lose and nothing has been a tight one thing since the beginning. Ok, Krabby is just a krab, and finneon is just a fish, but those are exceptions to the rule.

Source: Pokemon Go Lunar New Year Event 2020, Year of the Rat

Another hint:
1651070703291.png

Source: r/pokemon - Game Freak's New Year's Card from this Famitsu magazine Issue #1622.
 
If the Zodiac theory has any sort of validity or presence in GF’s mind, it likely started after Gen 2, but possibly later, as they worked on some fire starters that fit the Zodiac perfectly, and they thought Charmander and Cyndaquil’s line could loosely fit.

Still, if this would be true, I’d have opted for a different Pokémon then Fennekin to ‘fit’ the Dog sign in the Chinese Zodiac. I get that both species are part of the Canidae family, and that a fox work way better for the mage/witch theme they worked on for Fennekin line (wish they didn’t, but that’s another matter), but dogs and foxed are very different and have very different ‘roles’ in Chinese and Japanese folklore.

Either way, as I said before, we’ll have some sort of answer in SV. Turning a croc into a snake would be too much of a coincidence, and if it doesn’t, a croc or dragon can’t fit the snake, even loosely. At least to me.

I honestly don’t get, though, the fervor that could be often be found in other sites in discussion about this theory.
Flying crocs are non-existent, even among myths and religions. A crocodille with wings is just a dragon, so they're probably reusing a sign they used before (Charizard).
 
I'd argue there's too much of a difference between what crocodiles look like and what dragons look like for that to be an apt comparison but, maybe I'm not aware of a type of dragon out there. Just feel like it requires more than "Reptile with wings" for them to count as a dragon. Pokemon wise just being dragon type is enough i suppose.
 
Flying crocs are non-existent, even among myths and religions. A crocodille with wings is just a dragon, so they're probably reusing a sign they used before (Charizard).
I don’t see the reason why you’d reuse a sign instead of going for a new one. It doesn’t make sense, to me, to not complete the zodiac if the theory is true.
 
Take a look:

View attachment 159053

"The first day of the Chinese New Year will be on Saturday, January 25, initiating the Year of the Rat, which means that a new rat/rodent event will be taking place sometime around the 25th". Just a coincidence, huh? Sandshrew isn't a rat, but the Pokémon Company does consider it as such (Rodent, Mouse, whatever). Like I said before, most pokemon creature inspirations are very lose and nothing has been a tight one thing since the beginning. Ok, Krabby is just a krab, and finneon is just a fish, but those are exceptions to the rule.

Source: Pokemon Go Lunar New Year Event 2020, Year of the Rat
Future Game Releases is not an official source, nor is that an official image. As I already stated, that image uses Emolga fan art traced from an anime screenshot. Cyndaquil wasn't even available during that event.

Quilava and Typhlosion have never been recognized as a rat or mouse in any official media.
Cyndaquil does get to rarely join in on rodent parties on occasion, but big whoop.

You'd think that if they were intentionally doing the zodiac, that they'd expressly make that connection for New Year events. Because why bother if you're not going to market it.
 
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There's "only" twelve of them out there. It's not like they can keep using the unused signs (ox, snake, sheep and horse).
Until it's completed, I'd expect them to do so, if the theory holds any actual value. I don't have a horse in the theory being right or wrong, but I wouldn't find it that credible if we get a 'dragon' and a duplicate instead of a new one.

So far, they didn't reuse any sign, so I don't see why suddenly they'd change route. And I'd say even in terms of duplicate, going for an actual rat/mouse or dog would've been better, then a new creature we have to fit in a sign without it being 100% one.

Fair enough if this isn't going to change in your mind. As I said, I don't care either way who ends up being right.
 
This debate is starting to remind me of the Madden curse (is that still a thing?); every time the curse was broken, its proponents kept expanding the criteria to the point where it became virtually unbreakable.
 
Although its external appearance is generally that of a long-nosed mouse, a shrew is not a rodent, as mice are. It is, in fact, a much closer relative of hedgehogs and moles;
I know this is a bit of a tangent, but I'd like to point out that not only are shrews not rodents, but they actually prey on mice. Which actually adds quite a neat level of brilliance to Kantonian Sandshrew and Sandslash being Ground-types.
 
Please note: The thread is from 2 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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