Tensions in the Middle East - Israeli-Palestinian crisis

[Lyrebird]

This thread is about the current conflict between the parties involved within Israel and Palestine.

Remember - DO NOT insult anyone's opinions and refrain from personal attacks
- Threaten any race or religion / calling for blood
- attack someone personally

DO
- Respect opinions
- Use reliable sources because proper reporting makes a difference when it comes to facts
- Keep it civil.

Basically respect each other, stick to the rules and be civil. Read your post in your head first and see if it sounds okay - Then we will have a good insightful discussion. This is a warning to keep it civil.

 

[Solayoh]

K I'll start.

Basically I have nothing against Palestinians in general, average families like mine who just want to get on and have a decent life.
But there are quite a lot, who are driven by the destruction of Israel. This is a feud that goes back centuries, before the bible.

Hamas are labelled a terrorist organisation by the entire western world, and even countries such as Egypt and Jordan (hardly Israel's best friends see 6 day war and Golan Heights) have designated them as terrorists. These people have been elected democratically as the government, imagine that, a country electing terrorists to govern, who continue to launch rocket attacks and build tunnels into Israel for kidnapping children to be held hostage.

So what is poor Israel to do? It is a fully developed western economy and has far more power than Palestine, but it knows that when it fights back it will be labelled as "just as bad" if it tries to restrict bomb making resources going into Gaza, people complain too saying its oppression.

Israel is the only developed civilised country in the Middle East, the only country in the Middle East were all human rights are enshrined and upheld, where minorities, women, homosexuals and disabled people don't have to live in fear. It is democratic and respects the rule of law and despite being a majority jewish state built as a homeland for the jewish people they are very open to immigration and the state itself is secular, no religion is discriminated against.

People cry out that when Israel defends itself civilians get hurt, they seem to say, well you've killed 100 of their civilians and they;ve only killed 3 of yours, but its not for Hamas lack of trying, Israel protects its people, Hamas uses children as human shields, they stockpile their weapons in schools and parks knowing that Israel is going to have to bomb them to defend themselves and of course when they do, theres lots of dead childrens bodies for Hamas to parade around and say look at big bad Israel they targeted a school, all these children are dead.

Hamas know they can't win militarily and they have no intention of doing so, they are trying to win the PR war, and just provoke Israel to defend itself so that they can make Israel look bad, and gullible people in the west won't care about the background they just see "dead kids, bombed by israel, must be bad israel"

Israel uses its weapons to protect its people.
Hamas uses its people to protect is weapons.

EDIT:

I think this article does a really good job at explaining it
7 Things to Consider Before Choosing Sides in the Middle East Conflict | Ali A. Rizvi

 

[Karpi]

Not every country is as lucky as the United States to be totally geographically isolated aside from two friendly and weak neighbors, and I totally understand Israel's need for the show of force.

Still, Israel is a first world democratic country. The Israelis DO have a moral obligation to not do things like this:
U.N. Blames Israel for Shelter Attack - WSJ
(apologies for the use of a biased source, but it's pretty well-established that it happened, and everything has a bias anyway)
Show some restraint, people. Seriously.

Yes Hamas is bad. Yes they know better. But the Israelis REALLY know better, because the institutions that make their country modern and safe build on hundreds of years of history in Europe and North America.

 

[Big Lutz]

Not every country is as lucky as the United States to be totally geographically isolated aside from two friendly and weak neighbors, and I totally understand Israel's need for the show of force.

Still, Israel is a first world democratic country. The Israelis DO have a moral obligation to not do things like this:
U.N. Blames Israel for Shelter Attack - WSJ
(apologies for the use of a biased source, but it's pretty well-established that it happened, and everything has a bias anyway)
Show some restraint, people. Seriously.

Yes Hamas is bad. Yes they know better. But the Israelis REALLY know better, because the institutions that make their country modern and safe build on hundreds of years of history in Europe and North America.

To be fair it is widely known that Hamas is hiding weapons in schools, shelters, hospitals, etc. Hell just yesterday it was discovered that Hamas' leadership is in the basement of a hospital. The outrage you are feeling, is what Hamas wants by hiding and firing their weapons around civilians, so that when Israel justifiably fires back, everyone gets outraged.

 

[Karpi]

Not every country is as lucky as the United States to be totally geographically isolated aside from two friendly and weak neighbors, and I totally understand Israel's need for the show of force.

Still, Israel is a first world democratic country. The Israelis DO have a moral obligation to not do things like this:
U.N. Blames Israel for Shelter Attack - WSJ
(apologies for the use of a biased source, but it's pretty well-established that it happened, and everything has a bias anyway)
Show some restraint, people. Seriously.

Yes Hamas is bad. Yes they know better. But the Israelis REALLY know better, because the institutions that make their country modern and safe build on hundreds of years of history in Europe and North America.

To be fair it is widely known that Hamas is hiding weapons in schools, shelters, hospitals, etc. Hell just yesterday it was discovered that Hamas' leadership is in the basement of a hospital. The outrage you are feeling, is what Hamas wants by hiding and firing their weapons around civilians, so that when Israel justifiably fires back, everyone gets outraged.

Right, it was cleverly set up by them to appear really bad, and of course it works. Ugh, I just hate when tons of civilians die.

-------------
Back to a more general perspective,
It seems like one of the major problems Israel has is this unfortunate combo:

a lack of population + desire for a Jewish-majority state + desire for land in Palestine.

If they invaded Gaza and made all those people citizens (and it somehow worked out peacefully lol), the Jewish majority would drop from ~75% to ~60% and begin plummeting even more quickly. Not even including the West Bank. It just seems like there's no way for them to get what they want without pushing all those people completely out of the country or killing most of them and waiting for the rest to flee.

But then again land is never just free for the taking.

 

[Big Lutz]

72 Hour Cease Fire has been agreed upon in Gaza while the diplomats come to some kind of sustainable peace.

Log In - The New York Times

Personally my pie in the sky hope is the complete demilitarization of Hamas and Gaza, and the reopening of the Gaza ports, with joint Arab/Israeli/UN inspectors making sure that military cargo is not being snuck in.

Edit: Ceasefire broken by Palestine only 90 min in, resulting in the capture of a Israeli soldier, that has to be a new record.

 

[dig]

Huge graphical representation of Israel vs Palestinian deaths since 2000.

It's not a conflict, it's a massacre.

 

[Big Lutz]

Huge graphical representation of Israel vs Palestinian deaths since 2000.

It's not a conflict, it's a massacre.

Usually in a war you tend to try to defeat the enemy with out getting your own people killed. I mean by your logic, the U.S. vs Germany in World War 2 was a massacre against the German people.

 

[Solayoh]

Huge graphical representation of Israel vs Palestinian deaths since 2000.

It's not a conflict, it's a massacre.

Hamas aren't trying to win the war against Israel militarily, they know they would never stand a chance in an outright assault.
They are trying to win the PR war.

These are extremists, they believe its right, even honourable to die for your causes, and they have the same view on others.
There twisted view is that the civilians they use as human shields should feel honoured.
The leader of Hamas even openly says "stand on your roofs and fight there planes with your bare chests"

Why do you think they stock their weapons in schools, parks and hospitals? It's because they know Israel will destroy their weapons, and by storing them in these places, yes Israel weakens the military threat, but then gets it in the neck from the international community who say "how could you kill alll these people/children"