The Case Against Atheism

[The Lucario Trainer]

While some may justifiably be tired of this ongoing debate, I believe it is an important one to continue to have. People need to continue to be exposed to both sides. In mainstream America at the very least, the secular humanist standpoint is a vast minority because it is not given a fair shake until children are already biased against it. They are indoctrinated from a young age by their parents and a society at large. Atheism is a minority view, but far from an extreme one.

An informed atheist will concede that we can never fully disprove the existence of a god in the same way we cannot disprove the existence of anything. They will also be humble and accept that we can also never know with utmost certainty how life and the universe originated. They will contend, however, that certain theories are better supported by real world evidence and logic than others. And theism fails on both counts.

Christianity has become less and less fundamental among the mainstream as time passes. This is a positive development. People take the bible less literally than they used to. Yet, I believe this in itself is fallacious. The bible is the document of Christianity--god's word written by people. If we can't go by this, what can we go by?

The question must also be asked, why have Christians (and I truly don't mean to pick on this religion in particular--it is simply the most relevant and understood for most of us) become less fundamental?

I would argue that it is because with the passage of time, the acquiring of knowledge, and what Richard Dawkins calls the "shifting moral zeitgeist" (no relation to the movie I started a thread about, though I find the first section pertinent for this discussion), people have come to realize how foolish the original document is. Enlightened people know that the earth is all but proven to be far older than the bible suggests. The earth is 4 to 5 billion years old. The bible would have you believe it is much younger (a belief known as "young earth creationism"). Dinosaur bones are also a difficult finding for creationists to explain. Because fundamentalist Christianity eschews evolution, a scientific theory that has been placed under much scrutiny and is all but proven, a fundamentalist Christian would believe that the animals that inhabit the world today are the same animals that inhabited the world at its origin.

The study of fossils says otherwise. There is a general shift from simplicity to complexity in the fossil record. All it would take to disprove evolution is to find something as complex as a human coexisting with the far simpler organisms of the early earth. This has never happened.

Morally, we see the same trend. Today's modern population is not going to follow a document that tells us to stone people who work on the Sabbath. It is appalling.

As a result, Christianity has been watered down to make it more reasonable to the masses. But this doesn't make it any more true. In fact, as we stray further from the original text, the positions seem even less valid. If the bible is so clearly wrong on so many counts, why do people still willingly accept the general message as true?

If you're a Christian and you're reading this right now, why are you a Christian? In all likelihood, you are a Christian because your parents raised you a Christian. If you had been born in India, you'd be just as ardently a Hindu. If you were born in Iran, you'd be a Muslim. Right now, you would say those religions are false. Why are those religions false? Because the bible tells you they are false ("do not worship false idols"). But know very well that if you WERE a Muslim, you would feel just as strongly about the falsehood of Christianity. Can you really, honestly dispute this? We blindly follow the religion we are brought up with. In the Christian religion, the concepts of heaven and hell aim to keep people from deviating too much. Hell is the ultimate scare tactic and the religious message is the most powerful one ever devised.

The merit of atheism seems comparably weak. There is no life after death. You put yourself at risk to go to hell. There is no deity who looks after you and knows your every secret. The earth is more random and harder to explain. But I think we can take solace in it as well. Atheists have what I believe is a more realistic world view.

If you want to view an admittedly biased, but incredibly compelling video of where your religion probably came from, look no further than this.

 

[The Big Al]

My main gripe with atheism is how atheists run around going "we're open minded". And it's not just on the internet forums, they say it in real life. It's a lie. Atheists are actually the most closed and narrow minded people I've met. They've wrapped themselves so tightly in accepted logic because it justifies their beliefs they can't see past it. They've cut off their ability to grow mentally and shut out new ways of thinking.

It's actually kind of sad.

As for the Christian part. The creationism arguement fails right then and there. Gensis was worded for a people who had the education of the modern first grader (as my grandfather put it). And God doesn't need to tell us everything, why would he give us curiosity and free will if he was going to give us all the answers. Besides, how earth came into being isn't that important to CHRISTianity.

What is important is Jesus Christ. His Sermon on the mount serves as the basis of the Christian ethic and has not been watered down. It also doesn't apply to just christians. Many non-christian cultures have similar ethical beliefs. And christianity wasn't meant to a fundamental religion. It was meant to be a very liberal and accepting religion. You brought non-believers into the fold with love and enlightenment, not at the end of a sword.

And that's why I've stayed a Christian. It stands out as an oddity among relgions and as a liberal best fits my personal convictions.

 

[gorurk]

My main gripe with atheism is how atheists run around going "we're open minded". And it's not just on the internet forums, they say it in real life. It's a lie. Atheists are actually the most closed and narrow minded people I've met. They've wrapped themselves so tightly in accepted logic because it justifies their beliefs they can't see past it. They've cut off their ability to grow mentally and shut out new ways of thinking.

It's actually kind of sad.

in that statement you also show you are narrow minded. and have cut off you ability to grow mentally and shut out knew ways of thinking.


* As for me i am agnostic.
for a definition see this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

 

[Jo-Jo]

I kind of figure a big reason religion existed in the first place is because people needed an explanation for the earthly phenomena that seemed inexplicable to them, and trusting in a higher power is a more attractive option than admitting bafflement. The more science progresses, the more we understand and the less necessary it is to hypothesise that God is responsible for any strange things we observe.

My family and their friends are almost all Christian, so I know it can be a wonderful means of establishing a community and creating ties between people. I feel uncomfortable dismissing their beliefs - they're all intelligent and good people. But I can't help agreeing strongly with the point that they are Christians because that's what they were taught to be.

My main gripe with atheism is how atheists run around going "we're open minded". And it's not just on the internet forums, they say it in real life. It's a lie. Atheists are actually the most closed and narrow minded people I've met. They've wrapped themselves so tightly in accepted logic because it justifies their beliefs they can't see past it. They've cut off their ability to grow mentally and shut out new ways of thinking.

Nothing says "open-minded" like demonising an entire segment of the population for having different beliefs than you.

I'm guessing you think they're close-minded because they don't entertain possibilities that, to them, seem ridiculous. Nobody can force themselves to believe that something is plausible, and they shouldn't be made to lie and pretend they do just to smooth things over with you. Many atheists come from religious families. So they were indoctrinated into a certain faith, and broke away from it because they were prepared to reevaluate assumptions that they probably believed in utterly as children. If they were close-minded, they would never have questioned those assumptions. (Which is not to say that everyone who didn't break away from their faith is close-minded.)

 

[Ganondorf]

Hitler also broke away from his raising.... just wanted to put that out there.

Well I can see if I post why I believe in Christ I'll just argue in a cirlce to an inevitable 0 = 1 equation that is unsolve able. I don't want to keep doing that in fact maybe a better approach would be to tell you all why I even come here anymore.

A few of you obviously dislike me or would want me to go away already, while a few of you tollerate me for an unknown reason. I would just like to say that I've never debated or had any teaching on anything we've discussed here before I came. I came with basic street smart, common sense and a few rules of science and logic.

The only reason I came here is because I love and care about each and every one of you, I believe in the Bible and it's validity so I believe that anyone that does not know Jesus Christ as their savior will go to hell, but I also believe anyone can come to him regardless of what they used to do or still do in their regular life.

It doesn't matter to him and I'm trying to get that same mind set, I think I've always had a little of it though. I would and will let you guys batter me down to nothing, tear down everything I would stand for, humilate me as publically as you can and make me seem as lowly as you want just for the chance to interject Jesus even once. If there is a possibility that you will go to hell, I don't want to be responsible for that, I don't want to be the one that gave up on any of you.

So now please understand why I even stay here, it's not because I want to, no I have enough reason to leave being the kind of person I am a few of you have hurt me badly already. Not in my faith but as a general person, no matter what you do my faith can not and will not be scathed because it's an act of the will and is self sustaining.

The only reason I will stay is the same as the reason I came, I care and love each of you.

 

[The Big Al]

in that statement you also show you are narrow minded. and have cut off you ability to grow mentally and shut out knew ways of thinking.

Uh...no. I was pointing out the fatal flaw in one of the most common arguements made by atheists.

* As for me i am agnostic.
for a definition see this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

The only ones who can truly claim to be open minded in this debate.

I kind of figure a big reason religion existed in the first place is because people needed an explanation for the earthly phenomena that seemed inexplicable to them, and trusting in a higher power is a more attractive option than admitting bafflement. The more science progresses, the more we understand and the less necessary it is to hypothesise that God is responsible for any strange things we observe.

Then why have some of the greatest scientists been theists?

My family and their friends are almost all Christian, so I know it can be a wonderful means of establishing a community and creating ties between people. I feel uncomfortable dismissing their beliefs - they're all intelligent and good people. But I can't help agreeing strongly with the point that they are Christians because that's what they were taught to be.

It doesn't mean it's bad.

Nothing says "open-minded" like demonising an entire segment of the population for having different beliefs than you.

Which atheists are just as guilty of. Just mean, I have first hand experience.

I'm guessing you think they're close-minded because they don't entertain possibilities that, to them, seem ridiculous. Nobody can force themselves to believe that something is plausible, and they shouldn't be made to lie and pretend they do just to smooth things over with you. Many atheists come from religious families. So they were indoctrinated into a certain faith, and broke away from it because they were prepared to reevaluate assumptions that they probably believed in utterly as children. If they were close-minded, they would never have questioned those assumptions. (Which is not to say that everyone who didn't break away from their faith is close-minded.)

Theists are close minded to some degree or another, however, we don't claim the opposite. I'll admit it right here I'm a Christian and that Christianity (to some extent) is right. Does that make me any less of a human being?

As I said, most of the truly brilliant scientists, the ones that made ground breaking advancement in human knowledge were theists. I believe it's because (despite believeing certain things about other faiths) they have accepted the fact their are things beyond our knowledge and that reasoning should not end with accepted logic.

The atheist is a creature of comfort. They never want to be taken out of their comfort zone. They don't want to have to think about something that is uncertain, especially on the scale of religion. So when they're explosed to things other than what their parents taught them they treat them all as wrong because than they don't have to think about it. They then base this copout on logic to further eliminate their need to reason. That's what I've observed about atheists. Sorry if you're offended but that's what your behavior and arguements say.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Hitler also broke away from his raising.... just wanted to put that out there.

Because his family wasn't for massacring people because they were different? Damn, I thought they were.

I believe in the Bible and it's validity so I believe that anyone that does not know Jesus Christ as their savior will go to hell

So, regardless of how someone lives their life, if they don't believe in Jesus, they go to Hell? And if they do, they're saved? So, I could nuke all of Asia and as long as I believe in Jesus, I'm safe? Yet, if I live a life free of every sin as is stated in the Bible, yet DON'T believe in Jesus...I'm going to Hell?

Do you see why people have issues with Christianity now?

So now please understand why I even stay here, it's not because I want to, no I have enough reason to leave being the kind of person I am a few of you have hurt me badly already.

And your holier-than-thou attitude hurts ME.

humilate me as publically as you can and make me seem as lowly as you want just for the chance to interject Jesus even once.

I know the only reason I would ever insult you is to get my shots in at Jesus. And if I whack Moses as well, then fantastic.

Personally, I've never been one for atheism or any specific religion. Both seem flawed. Both seem limited. And, frankly, I prefer to keep my metaphysical options open. Atheism's a nice, logical look at the world. But there are way too many illogical things that occur for me to think it's entirely right. And I've had too many...unexplainable things happen for me to fully accept that there isn't SOMETHING there. But on the basis that I can't provide proof, I tend to side with atheists. I've always preferred proof to no proof. Plus, there's the fact that I've run into too many people like Ganondorf, who seem to think that the best way to get people to follow Christianity is to guilt them into it. Nothing annoys me more.

 

[Every Breaking Wave]

I do not believe in God. When was the last time it showed itself? When a 2000+ year-old book appeared? It could have been written by anyone.

Here's some trivia. The Bible has a story about a flood - Noah's Ark. Did you know that a flood story almost identical to the Bible's existed 2500 years BEFORE the Bible was first written? We are closer in time to the writing of the Bible than the Bible is to that original flood story. I kid you not. It is a part of the oldest known written story in existence. I believe it is called "The Epic of Gilgamash" (not sure about the spelling)

 

[Jo-Jo]

Uh...no. I was pointing out the fatal flaw in one of the most common arguements made by atheists.

No, you were being a dick.

And whether an atheist claims to be open-minded or not is nothing but a statement about themselves, not a statement about God or religion or anything related to this debate. You calling atheists close-minded doesn't show that they're wrong. Ad hominem. In fact, if they're right, then they have no reason to be open-minded about other beliefs.

The only ones who can truly claim to be open minded in this debate.

You seem to have a gross misconception of what open-mindedness means. It doesn't mean that you have to be a fence-sitter, no matter what the issue or the evidence. An open-minded person will rationally and carefully examine all the possibilities, rejecting no one out of hand, and at the end of this process, may well decide that one possibility is by far the likeliest, and adopt it as his/her viewpoint - or not (hence agnosticism). And an open-minded person, having come to a conclusion, would be prepared to re-evaluate it if new evidence emerged that threw it into doubt. It would only be close-mindedness if they reached their conclusion without giving the other possibilities a fair evaluation, or refused to change their minds later even if new data became available.

Then why have some of the greatest scientists been theists?

I didn't say that the only reason to be a theist is fear of the unknown. I said it might be a major factor for religious belief in humans as a species, and it contributes to the explanation of why religion was so much more prevailant in the past, and why instances of hysterical behaviour (such as witch-burnings) was associated with it.

It doesn't mean it's bad.

No-one said it was bad. But it suggests that fervency of belief doesn't really say much about the likelihood of that belief being true, seeing as how the believer would believe just as strongly in a completely different religion if s/he had been raised in another country.

Which atheists are just as guilty of. Just mean, I have first hand experience.

Ah, so because some atheists acted like dicks in your presence, that gives you a free pass to be one too. And the behaviour of the atheists you know is a totally reliable indicator of the behaviour of the entire world population of atheists. Got it.

Mind you, you seem so intolerant that I doubt your opinions of the atheists you know is even a reliable indicator of the behaviour of said atheists.

Theists are close minded to some degree or another, however, we don't claim the opposite. I'll admit it right here I'm a Christian and that Christianity (to some extent) is right. Does that make me any less of a human being?

It makes you not-open-minded, which is the character trait under discussion.

The atheist is a creature of comfort. They never want to be taken out of their comfort zone.

Are you really that ignorant? As I already said, many atheists were brought up by religious families. Breaking away from the belief system that your entire family literally worships is difficult. By definition, it requires leaving your comfort zone, since your comfort zone involves - ooh - religion.

It's amazing how often atheism seems to be taken as an indication of moral character.

They don't want to have to think about something that is uncertain, especially on the scale of religion.

Nonsense. Atheists are the ones who can't use "God did it" as their explanation for anything they don't understand.

Many atheists spend a lot of time having religion forced in their faces (me, for one), so it's kind of hard to not think about it.

So when they're explosed to things other than what their parents taught them they treat them all as wrong because than they don't have to think about it.

We JUST ESTABLISHED that most religious people follow whatever religion they were brought up with.

That's what I've observed about atheists. Sorry if you're offended

I bet you are.

but that's what your behavior and arguements say.

LOL. I haven't actually said anything much in here besides defend my right to not be a target of religious bigotry by you. But I suppose in your view, arguing against you is proof of close-mindedness. Not that you have to extend the same courtesy to anyone else, of course - you've admitted to being close-minded, so you're morally exempt.

 

[The Big Al]

No, you were being a dick.

Sticks and stones buddy, sticks and stones.

And whether an atheist claims to be open-minded or not is nothing but a statement about themselves, not a statement about God or religion or anything related to this debate. You calling atheists close-minded doesn't show that they're wrong. Ad hominem. In fact, if they're right, then they have no reason to be open-minded about other beliefs.

I'm saying they go around screaming about being open minded when they aren't. That was my point. I'm also glad to see that people have decided to take my comment about atheism and completely ignore my comment on christianity. There's nothing like predictability. I wanted an arguement and damn if you people don't deliver.

You seem to have a gross misconception of what open-mindedness means. It doesn't mean that you have to be a fence-sitter, no matter what the issue or the evidence. An open-minded person will rationally and carefully examine all the possibilities, rejecting no one out of hand, and at the end of this process, may well decide that one possibility is by far the likeliest, and adopt it as his/her viewpoint - or not (hence agnosticism). And an open-minded person, having come to a conclusion, would be prepared to re-evaluate it if new evidence emerged that threw it into doubt. It would only be close-mindedness if they reached their conclusion without giving the other possibilities a fair evaluation, or refused to change their minds later even if new data became available.

How many people do you honestly believe weighed ALL the information when making a decision abour religion?

I didn't say that the only reason to be a theist is fear of the unknown. I said it might be a major factor for religious belief in humans as a species, and it contributes to the explanation of why religion was so much more prevailant in the past, and why instances of hysterical behaviour (such as witch-burnings) was associated with it.

I say it's better education. Fundamentalism doesn't sit well if well educated people. Though you could turn education into indoctrination but that's for another thread.

No-one said it was bad. But it suggests that fervency of belief doesn't really say much about the likelihood of that belief being true, seeing as how the believer would believe just as strongly in a completely different religion if s/he had been raised in another country.

Okay.

Ah, so because some atheists acted like dicks in your presence, that gives you a free pass to be one too. And the behaviour of the atheists you know is a totally reliable indicator of the behaviour of the entire world population of atheists. Got it.

Mind you, you seem so intolerant that I doubt your opinions of the atheists you know is even a reliable indicator of the behaviour of said atheists.

I'm intolerant of liars. And the fact that's it's not just on forum but people say it in public makes it a disgrace especially when these people are supposedly going after the truth.

It makes you not-open-minded, which is the character trait under discussion.

No it's lying about the character trait that's under discussion.

Are you really that ignorant? As I already said, many atheists were brought up by religious families. Breaking away from the belief system that your entire family literally worships is difficult. By definition, it requires leaving your comfort zone, since your comfort zone involves - ooh - religion.

Bullshit. You completely missed my arguement. They escaped to their comfort zone because they didn't want to truly reevaluate their assumptions so they just threw them away. And religion isn't a comfort zone, to keep your beliefs, despite other faiths having about as much evidence as yours is a hard to make. Switching to another faith despite no more reason to worship it is hard. Throwing your hands in the air and saying "fuck it all" is easy as hell.

It's amazing how often atheism seems to be taken as an indication of moral character.

Who said anything about morals. I'm talking about their willingness work at something as important as what there is that is more than them.

Nonsense. Atheists are the ones who can't use "God did it" as their explanation for anything they don't understand.

Many atheists spend a lot of time having religion forced in their faces (me, for one), so it's kind of hard to not think about it.

Cry me a river.

We JUST ESTABLISHED that most religious people follow whatever religion they were brought up with.

Which means they didn't see a reason to change their beliefs despite the presence of other faiths.

I bet you are.

Actually now I'm winding you up like a Swiss watch I'm happy as a clam. I've needed a little entertainment lately.

LOL. I haven't actually said anything much in here besides defend my right to not be a target of religious bigotry by you. But I suppose in your view, arguing against you is proof of close-mindedness. Not that you have to extend the same courtesy to anyone else, of course - you've admitted to being close-minded, so you're morally exempt.

At least I don't have to lie to get to sleep at night with my convictions.

And you're forgetting I don't get into religious debates because I think I'll win. They've gone one for generations so we're not going to get anywhere on forums. I get into the becaue I like arguing. It's my cup of joe in the morning. I made that comment about open minded because 1. it bugs me about people and 2. I knew at least one atheist would bite and we'd be off to the races.

 

[Jo-Jo]

I'm saying they go around screaming about being open minded when they aren't.

I'm sure you have met every single atheist in the world, and thus have all the evidence you need to back this claim up.

Hasty generalisation.

I'm also glad to see that people have decided to take my comment about atheism and completely ignore my comment on christianity.

Yyyeah, I imagine that's because your comment about atheists (not atheism) was a load of hateful bigoted tripe. Your comment on Christianity was that... creationism is wrong. Hmm, I don't consider it a great mystery as to why nobody bothered refuting that.

There's nothing like predictability. I wanted an arguement and damn if you people don't deliver.

How cute, you started an argument and then resorted to mocking the other side for... arguing with you. What a wholly original tactic to use on the internet. I'm pretty sure there's a fandom_wank page about that.

How many people do you honestly believe weighed ALL the information when making a decision abour religion?

Seeing as how that would require reading everything ever written about religion and every bit of relevant scientific evidence, I imagine nobody. We do what we can. Open-minded people assess the evidence to the best of their ability.

I say it's better education.

Agreed. More knowledge = less ignorance = what I argued in the first place.

I'm intolerant of liars. And the fact that's it's not just on forum but people say it in public makes it a disgrace especially when these people are supposedly going after the truth.

I swear I already linked to the ad hominem page.

Bullshit. You completely missed my arguement. They escaped to their comfort zone because they didn't want to truly reevaluate their assumptions so they just threw them away.

You what now. Reevaluating their assumptions is what led them to disregard them in the first place. If they hadn't reevaluated their assumptions, they'd still be religious. Duh.

And what kind of comfort zone involves having to be different to the rest of your family, having to extricate yourself from the rituals and customs you've followed all your life, most likely facing disapproval and/or disappointment from your parents, and having to come to terms with death without the prospect of an afterlife?

And religion isn't a comfort zone, to keep your beliefs, despite other faiths having about as much evidence as yours is a hard to make.

Of course it's a comfort zone. A comfort zone that provides you with a community of like-minded people, a belief in ineffable fairness, a loving deity, forgiveness for one's sins and life after death, and a means of letting oneself feel morally superior.

This is not rocket science. Sticking with old beliefs that you were taught as a matter of course along with spelling and counting, and that are constantly mutually affirmed by the rest of your family and your religious community, is pretty damn easy. Going against the grain is what's hard.

Maybe you should just stop talking about things that you clearly don't understand and have no intention of ever understanding.

Who said anything about morals.

You did, when you called all atheists lazy and intolerant.

You do realise that religious prejudice is every bit as bad as racist, sexism, ageism, homophobia, etc.?

I'm talking about their willingness work at something as important as what there is that is more than them.

YOU define religion as important. Obviously, a non-religious person won't.

Faith is NOT an end-point that we all ought to be striving for, and if we don't have faith, that doesn't mean we're languishing behind and haven't bothered to start the All-Important journey to... sharing your beliefs, as far as I can figure out. For me, and thousands of others, having faith was the starting point, and we have had to strive to get away from that.

So, once again, maybe you should just stop talking about things that you clearly don't understand and have no intention of ever understanding.

Cry me a river.

Oh SNAP.

You didn't refute my actual point, I notice.

Which means they didn't see a reason to change their beliefs despite the presence of other faiths.

They are barely exposed to other faiths. They are continually exposed to their own faith, from within a community of believers who reinforce those beliefs through a cycle of mutual affirmation.

Actually now I'm winding you up like a Swiss watch I'm happy as a clam. I've needed a little entertainment lately.

Ah, the "I can't really fault your logic, so I'm just going to act like I only started this debate to annoy you and I don't really care so that even if you refute all my points, you still won't have 'won'" standby. Once again, so very uncommon on the internet. Not.

At least I don't have to lie to get to sleep at night with my convictions.

OH NO, MY SHAM OF A LIFE HAS BEEN EXPOOOOOOOSED!

And you're forgetting I don't get into religious debates

...........

Nah, too easy.

I love how you assume that I knew prior to this discussion that you, um, don't get into religious debates (snicker). I don't actually ever pay attention to you, I'm afraid, and thus have no idea what types of threads you're prone to get involved with.

 

[Zeta]

Which means they didn't see a reason to change their beliefs despite the presence of other faiths.

Because they were raised to believe that all other faiths = automatically wrong. So I'm willing to bet most of them never even CONSIDERED the other faiths as an option. There's a difference between investigating a number of religions to see what's right for you and comparing them with the one you were raised with, and automatically turning your brain off whenever you encounter something religiously unfamiliar.

 

[gorurk]

Don't you just love debates about religion
and people wonder why there are wars and suffering in the world... it has nothing to do with gods or aliens or science or economics etc etc.
it is because people fear what they don't understand whether it is religion, the universe, races, cultures etc...

just thought i would point that out

 

[The Big Al]

My grandfather always said never discuss sex, politics, or religion you why you should never discuss sex, politics, or religion. Unless you're into arguing for the sake of arguing. It's not like anyone will win the debate.

 

[Joey]

Hitler also broke away from his raising.... just wanted to put that out there.

As someone who enjoys reading the debates here, I'd like you to familiarize yourself with Godwin's Law.

I consider myself an atheist who enjoys researching other religions. I like the ideas behind the different forms of Buddhism in particular. I feel I need to study it more to call myself a Buddhist though.

 

[Zeta]

Hitler also broke away from his raising.... just wanted to put that out there.

You're also the one who said that Hitler was an athiest, so I'd appreciate you no longer bring him up, since you obviously don't know much about him.

 

[The Big Al]

I don't know so much as an atheist as anti-religion. At the peak of his terror Hitler had turned on just about every religion in Germany, even the protestant lutherans. I think you remember the "then they came for me" speech.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

I don't know so much as an atheist as anti-religion. At the peak of his terror Hitler had turned on just about every religion in Germany, even the protestant lutherans. I think you remember the "then they came for me" speech.

Not quite. Hitler was raised Catholic. Then he went fucking crazy. After that, religion meant nothing to him. He didn't send people off to the gas chambers because of their religion. It was always because of their genes, politics, or something similar (though Jehovah's Witnesses were a special exception).

As for the writer of your little "speech," Martin Niemoller, he was taken because he vocally opposed the Nazi rule. NOT because of his religious affiliation.

 

[Dialga]

I always respect peoples religion, mine is catholic.

 

[Fig]

And do you respect people who have no religion?