The Flood and The Pyramids

[Josh]

Article- Evidence of Noahs Flood?

I'll start out by saying it's a long article. So, bear that in mind. However it is interesting, well, I seem to think so anyway.

It talks about the Great Pyramids of Egypt and how there couldn't have possibly been, or lack of evidence thereof, tools that could cut through the stone's in order to make the pyramids, and what has been found in the sands around them. They are classed as one of the Seven wonders of the world and it is simply taught the Egyptians built them around the time of Moses, in regards to the biblical Timeline.

They are more than that though, as you will see from reading the article, which I hope you take the time to do, as it will possibly change the way you think about things. I'll give my opinion when I have seen what a few others think of this, because Im still a bit unsure as to whether or not these facts are 100% accurate, there are several things I disagree with.

Looking at the flood, the article explains some evidence to it if you read. How is it possible that there is so much evidence against the flood ever occuring, yet this remains, saying that it was possible? It doesn't make much sense to me, that all these claims against the flood could have been made (which I support, because lets face it, that amount of water could not simply dissapear without a trace, evaporation would take a few millenia to happen on that grand scale, sea's or otherwise), yet this has been overlooked, and that there has been residue found from saltwater and indeed fossils that could not possibly have been deposited by the nile.

As I have said, I will post up my opinion on the matter when I have heard a few others as my Judgement to this is still very much cloudy, thankyou for taking the time to check it out and indeed this thread.

 

[evkl]

Evidence of *A* huge flood in "biblical" times has been coming out pretty steadily over the past ten or so years. Something involving the Med. and Black seas, or something along those lines. Whether it was on the scale described biblically or much smaller is up to debate.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

There's also a debate that it might not have been one flood, but several. There's evidence of a flood in pre-Biblical texts. I think the Epic of Gilgamesh mentions a flood. And I even heard of a biological theory, about how there's a big bottleneck in the human genome that shows something happened that would have severely limited the number of people on Earth. Although that may not be flood related...I can never remember if they claimed it was a flood, or a giant volcanic eruption.

 

[Murgatroyd]

One line has just eroded any chance I had of finding the article credible.

The King's Chamber is 10.46 meters east to west by 5.23 meters north to south by 5.81 meters high (a series of measurements that precisely expresses the mathematical proportion known as the Golden Mean, or Phi).

Does anyone see any way those measurements "precisely express" the number 1.618034? (six decimal places is not exact, but close enough given the precision of the measurements.)

 

[A Big Flying Goat?]

Oi. It has been shown that there are multiple ways of moving large stones, including sledges, rollers and a rather peculiar rowing method. The stones can be carved with bronze still, due to being able to overcome the toughness of the granite and sandstone.

It's also likely that many civilisations were capable of maths along the line of geometry, and basic astronomy. It's simple enough to form right angles and circles, and to line them up with various stars.

It adds nothing to the probability of a world wide flood. Local flood stories are of course likely true, due to most civilisations growing up around rivers, hence why they're so common. A global flood has so many problems it's scary, beginning with where all the water has gone, and ending with the amount of energy released when that much water impacts something.

 

[Murgatroyd]

As for the "incredible" precision of the compass alignment? Simple. It's truly amazing how accurate such things can be if the baseline for the measurement is long enough. Given a known "north" (say, the North Star) and a baseline the length of one side of the pyramid, the precision needed is measured in inches, well within the capability of any ancient engineer with good eyesight. Likewise for leveling. There's a simple method involving water on a calm day.

 

[Barb]

Originally posted by -DMM-:

that all these claims against the flood could have been made (which I support, because lets face it, that amount of water could not simply dissapear without a trace, evaporation would take a few millenia to happen on that grand scale, sea's or otherwise),

I did a little research on this. Remember that to some extent the earth is still flooded. Seventy percent of it is covered by water and only 30 percent is dry land. Moreover, 75 percent of the earth’s fresh water is locked up in glaciers and polar ice caps. If all this ice were to melt, the sea level would rise much higher. Cities like New York and Tokyo would disappear.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “The average depth of all the seas has been estimated at 3,790 metres (12,430 feet), a figure considerably larger than that of the average elevation of the land above the sea level, which is 840 metres (2,760 feet). If the average depth is multiplied by its respective surface area, the volume of the World Ocean is 11 times the volume of the land above sea level.” So, if everything were leveled out—if the mountains were flattened and the deep sea basins filled in—the sea would cover the whole earth to a depth of thousands of meters.

For the Flood to have happened, the pre-Flood sea basins would have to have been shallower, and the mountains lower than they are now. Is this possible? Well, one textbook says: “Where the mountains of the world now tower to dizzy heights, oceans and plains once, millions of years ago, stretched out in flat monotony. The movements of the continental plates cause the land both to rear up to heights where only the hardiest of animals and plants can survive and, at the other extreme, to plunge and lie in hidden splendor deep beneath the surface of the sea.” Since the mountains and sea basins rise and fall, it is apparent that at one time the mountains were not as high as they are now and the great sea basins were not as deep.

What happened to the floodwaters after the Flood? They must have drained into the sea basins. How? Scientists believe that the continents rest on huge plates. Movement of these plates can cause changes in the level of the earth’s surface. In some places today, there are great underwater abysses more than six miles [more than 10 km] deep at the plate boundaries. It is quite likely that—perhaps triggered by the Flood itself—the plates moved, the sea bottom sank, and the great trenches opened, allowing the water to drain off the land.

 

[Fig]

That's stretching things a BIT thin, Barb.

 

[birdboy2000]

About the flood... It's time someone sets the record straight.

I took all Norway's snow and dumped it in the Med. It was on a dare, and, well, you don't let someone like HERMES call you weak, so I didn't have much of a choice.

No clue about the Pyramids, though.

 

[Barb]

That's stretching things a BIT thin, Barb.

What do you mean?

 

[Trip]

The pyramids were created with the help of anti-gravity devices.

Let's be honest, none of the other explainations fit all that well. People have tried to reconstruct what we think they did and we can't make it work. The Egyptians (along with other ancient civilizations) had extraordinary knowledge about our planet that we've only recently uncovered, and that knowledge had to come from somewhere. And I somehow doubt it was from themselves.

There are all kinds of references to spaceships through historical documents and even in carvings from that time period. I even assume that the many Gods of the religions of that time period were based on the aliens.

Really, it's not much of a stretch.

- Trip

 

[Fig]

What do you mean?

I mean that a "flat" earth as you propose is not exactly a likely effect (at any point in time) of the tectonic plates.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

The pyramids were created with the help of anti-gravity devices.

Let's be honest, none of the other explainations fit all that well. People have tried to reconstruct what we think they did and we can't make it work. The Egyptians (along with other ancient civilizations) had extraordinary knowledge about our planet that we've only recently uncovered, and that knowledge had to come from somewhere. And I somehow doubt it was from themselves.

There are all kinds of references to spaceships through historical documents and even in carvings from that time period. I even assume that the many Gods of the religions of that time period were based on the aliens.

Really, it's not much of a stretch.

- Trip

Stargate fan are ya? Or is that just a coincidence?

Frankly, I used to believe the alien thing when it came to the construction of pyramids, but I just believe there was something they used that's been lost along the way. Either during the Christians burning everything they deemed heretical (which destroyed a LOT of Egyptian works) or just the Dark Ages in general. If you want to talk weird unexplainable things in the ancient world...then how about the crystal skulls found in South America?

 

[Dagoth Ur]

Whenever a thread trying to affirm the truth of the Bible comes up, my respect for various people drops and my desire for genocide rises.

Barb's plate tectonics hypothesis is ludicrous, and makes the assumption that material can somehow appear and disappear simply because the plates shift. The plates move around by convection of magma in the mantle. For every trench (subduction zones where one plate is pushed under another) or plateau like the Himalayas, there is an oceanic ridge where magma is pushed out, which forces the continents and plates to move. Also, as a very fluid medium water can erode dense heavy land laterally, but not push it much. And if the land really did use to be very flat, there would be no surface for the flood to push against at all.

Barb's post is evidence that religion is harmful to intelligence, and that more mandatory public science education is necessary.

PS: Flood stories arose from the fact that all civilizations were born near the essential resource of water.

 

[Fig]

That there were catastrophic floods in history is a set fact, wether in the form of Tsunamis, actual flood, or whatever else is not a theory; it's a fact.

-The Black Sea flood is pretty much accepted; underwater vilages have been found.

-The Chinesse yellow river has been known to just plain *change route* : a few centuries ago it reached the sea SOUTH of the Shandong peninsula, now it reaches the sea NORTH of it, a difference of several hundred kilometers.

-And as for devastating Tsunamis, I do believe Nature made my case for me last winter.

Howerver, these floods occured separately, and over time. There was no one great worldwide flood, but rather several smaller floods.

 

[ades]

Satan 616, you're my hero.

Well, one textbook says: “Where the mountains of the world now tower to dizzy heights, oceans and plains once, millions of years ago, stretched out in flat monotony.

When was this textbook printed? Because, I'm fairly sure that the Earth still had mountains and geological formations a few hundred million years ago.

 

[enchantress]

For the Flood to have happened, the pre-Flood sea basins would have to have been shallower, and the mountains lower than they are now. Is this possible?

The Earth is in the process of constant transformation. Movements in the interior of the earth, where it is hot and dense, result in the folding and fracture of the crust and transfer of molten material which makes its way to the surface. As a result, large structures such as mountain ranges, volcanos, lava plateau's and rift valleys are created. To make it a little simpler, the kind of activity which brings about these structural changed are usually referred to as tectonic forces. Everyone has heard of those, which I'll get into a little later.

The present continents have mostly developed from ancient rock. Erosive forces such as wind, water and ice have worn away particles of those rocks which in turn become sedimentary rock deposited in other places (I've studied this and I'm trying not to get too techinical here for the sake of simplicity). In many places these extensive areas of flat-lying rock have been elevated, folded or warped by more tectonic forces to form mountains, the shape of which are later altered by erosion over a long period of time which starts the cycle over again. Older mountains (such as the Appalachians) tend to have more rounded contours due to the constant erosion over centuries while the more recent mountains (such as the Himalayas) are higher and more rugged.

So in answer to your question. Yes, it is possible.

Let's be honest, none of the other explainations fit all that well. People have tried to reconstruct what we think they did and we can't make it work. The Egyptians (along with other ancient civilizations) had extraordinary knowledge about our planet that we've only recently uncovered, and that knowledge had to come from somewhere. And I somehow doubt it was from themselves.

There is actually a mountain of evidence to suggest the Pyramids pre-date the Egyptians by many centuries. I'll have a search around later to see if I can find some articles to back up my claims, but going from what I've previously studied the Egyptians themselves had nothing to do with the construction of the Great Pyramid or even the Sphinx. The claim in the above article about reports of a waterline on the Pyramids is also evidence to suggest this, as is the Sphinx itself. Apparently visual evidence of heavy rain and floods are right there for all to see and I'd love to visit Egypt one day to see that evidence for myself. (I'm a bit of an archaeology and meteorology nut ) Normal desert erosion caused by wind and sand will normally create fine lines around the sides of a structure whereas erosion from water, and heavy rain in particular, will cause vertical erosion markings (from the downward pressure of constant heavy rain) and these markings are supposedly clearly visible on the Sphinx itself.

That there were catastrophic floods in history is a set fact, wether in the form of Tsunamis, actual flood, or whatever else is not a theory; it's a fact.

This is also true. There have been many scientific studies undertaken to find evidence of the "Great Flood" as described in the bible, but what they've found is that there have actually been several great floods. Ice core samples taken from deep within the Earth suggest that we have had "ice ages" every 100,000 years or so and in between these times there have been many floods which have covered the Earth. Also, drilled out sediment cores from the sea floor show variations with depth in the ratio of heavy to light oxygen which is an indication of changes in the amount of ice over time. This record of climate change goes back tens of millions of years.

There are several possibilites as to how this can happen ranging from normal tectonic movement to Comets throwing the Earth off it's axis causing more tectonic movement as well as climate fluctuations and melting of glaciers, hence the floods, to the normal shifting of the Earth's angle which would cause the same upheaval. It would take forever to go into detailed explanations of each of these and more (and I simply don't have the time), but the fact is there have been major worldwide floods and there will be more. That's just the way our Earth works.


But anyway, being a subject which fascinates me, I could go on forever but I won't. There are so many possiblilites to discuss here but I unfortunately don't have the time to get into it. But my basic summary is that I personally don't believe the Egyptians created the Pyramids. Whether I'm right or wrong isn't the point, that's just my personal view.

And on a side note, I believe the stories of the great floods through the ages came from the survivors who were left to rebuild their own shattered civilisations. It's scary to think it will happen again. Makes me want to move away from the coast.... o0

 

[Fig]

I'm sorry, bug post-glaciation floods do not cover for the biblical world-covering flood.

You see, the latest Ice Age ended about 10 000 years ago. That particular Ice Age DID leave a flood in its wake. I know for a fact; my whole hometown (and region, in fact) was the floor of the Champlain sea (yes, a sea, complete with whales, whose skeletons have been found in the region) back in these days.

The problem?

The problem is I live next door to a small mountain - a hill, really - called Mont Saint-Hilaire. At 414 meters above the sea level, it doesn't even qualify for a mountain by the "common" geographical definition. Attached is a picture of the mountain in question.

The bigger problem is, there is extremely solid evidence that Mont Saint-Hilaire was an island in the Champlain Sea. Which sets a MAXIMUM limit for the flood : it did not reach far above 400 meters. Which means any hill worth its name, not to mention any mountain, would hav been spared.

Incidentally, the mount of the temple stands at 741 meters high. The Mount of Olives is close to 900. Jerusalem proper at its lowest point is still a good 600 meters above sea level.

A story about a "global flood" for a flood that still left a comfortable 200 meters of altitude between Jerusalem and the nearest sea beach wouldn't be much of a story.

(Oh, and Barb, need I point out that the picture proves my point from earlier? Islands ARE underwater mountains )

 

[enchantress]

Agreed. I didn't mean they completely covered every bit of land, if they had there wouldn't be any survivors, but covering mass amounts of land, yes.

 

[Fig]

*points at the massive edits*

Not mentioned in my post, but reports I've tracked down indicate that the sea level rise from the last glacial flood might have been as little as 200 meters. While that may sounds like a lot, it's actually not much; this means that virtually all the Appalachians, much of Europe, much of the middle-east and much of China would have been left unscathed : only coastal zones and vast fluvial plains would really have been hurt by this.

EDIT : 300 meters, which STILL leaves wide swaths of lands all over the world un-water-covered.

http://www.mcgill.ca/gault/sainthilaire/natural/postglacial/

It's from the McGill university (Montreal), and it even has a nice flash animation of the ice age and subsequent champlain sea.