The "Less is Morrison" Paint Edit opinion thread

[TSS_Killer]

You've seen this coming. I have the clips of these two scenes in both versions involving the onigiri change. Discuss.

http://tsskiller.be/AG119raw1.avi
http://tsskiller.be/AG119dub1.avi
http://tsskiller.be/AG119raw2.avi
http://tsskiller.be/AG119dub2.avi

 

[V Faction]

Why a whole thread? Couldn't this have worked in the episode thread?

Anyway, my opinion: I don't care. Boo-hoo, no more freakin' onigiri.

 

[TK n Happy Ness]

The paint editors at 4Kids are changing stuff like mad because they get paid a certain amount for every edit. Hence the stupid edits like signs blanked (even ones in proper English), Poke Dolls replaced with ribbon cases, onigiri changed to sandwiches, and cleavage being edited out.

 

[Misty]

The paint editors at 4Kids are changing stuff like mad because they get paid a certain amount for every edit.

You'd better have a reliable source for this. Somehow I doubt that that's how it works at all.

Topic - Who gives a shit?

 

[TSS_Killer]

Topic - Who gives a shit?

Simple answer to that question: Awareness for the people that don't have the liberty of obtaining the raw episodes.

 

[Geodude]

I didn't know they edited out cleavage...

 

[QuietDragon]

>>>I didn't know they edited out cleavage...

Haruka's mother AND Musashi got that. xD

 

[Doctor Oak]

That sandwich is meant to be giant?

Looks just like a normal foot-long to me.

It's also a really ugly paint job, you can see it standing out a mile but meh. I guess we're going to get the exact same deal in the first League ep too then.

 

[Water Pokémon Master]

The paint editors at 4Kids are changing stuff like mad because they get paid a certain amount for every edit. Hence the stupid edits like signs blanked (even ones in proper English), Poke Dolls replaced with ribbon cases, onigiri changed to sandwiches, and cleavage being edited out.

This is a post from another thread I made regarding the PokeDoll thing, and other stupid edits:

"As I said in the Bulbacast ep I was in, we don't know that 4Kids edits that stuff out. In Deoxys, EVERYONE thought and said that 4Kids colored Deoxys, but then we found out that Deoxys was colored in when it was released in theatres in Japan, and that 4Kids must had recieved an earlier version of the movie. Not to mention in Deoxys, there was a continuation error. Could the copy of that episode originally had Azurill and Zigzagoon in the pan shot, but they were not drawn in for the rest of the scene? Japan could had shipped out the earlier copy to 4Kids, realized they forgot to put the two dolls in, and then added them in. It's not like it's rare that a TV show fixes mistakes it has made like that. The Japanese are not perfect, and probably made the error and then corrected it."

 

[seaprince]

What's next? Erasing the pokeballs on May's bandana? Refrences to 80s cartoons? :054:

That couldn't have been edited with digital paint. Maybe they redrew it for 4kids?

 

[Doctor Oak]

That couldn't have been edited with digital paint. Maybe they redrew it for 4kids?

It very, very obviously stands out as being pasted frame-by-frame over the original Onigiri.

Also, I really don't think that the Deoxys example applies to most of these edits at all. That was a movie, they're in-development for some time and have a lot of attention lavished on them. Why would the japanese animators do an ep of the anime with a sandwich and then go back and do it with an onigiri instead?

Although I'd consider the fact that the badge case edit was only on KWB to begin with an indication that more often than not, it's the people paying 4Kids to put the show on TV demanding such edits than OMGZ, 4KIDS ARE EVAIIL.

The sandwich thing is inane but obviously the WB has a boner for making sure Japanese references are as few in number as possible, so it does make a degree of sense.

It's the badge case edit I don't get. It's so pointless it's not even funny - how is a Pokeball design in a Pokemon show offensive or problematic in any way shape or form?

 

[Dogasu]

As far as the sandwich edit goes, it's obvious that it's done by 4Kids. You can tell that they only drew ONE picture of the thing, and then shrinked it/enlarged it/rotated it so that it fit in each scene.

"Could the copy of that episode originally had Azurill and Zigzagoon in the pan shot, but they were not drawn in for the rest of the scene? Japan could had shipped out the earlier copy to 4Kids, realized they forgot to put the two dolls in, and then added them in. It's not like it's rare that a TV show fixes mistakes it has made like that. The Japanese are not perfect, and probably made the error and then corrected it."

I'm going to strongly disagree with that theory for the simple fact that there's proof that there's two versions of the Deoxys movie but absolutely none proving the existence of a second version of "A Three Team Scheme." If you can track down the episode, in Japanese, without the dolls in the Secret Base, THEN I might believe you.

Second of all, the paint edit in "A Three Team Scheme" is very obviously done by 4Kids. You can tell they just took the snout (for lack of a better word) of a Wailord, recolored it, and stuck it on the front of the Relicanth. If the Japanese went back and "fixed their mistake," as you propose, they would've simply redrawn the pokemon instead of trying to recreate it using exisiting pictures they have saved on their hard drive.

Third of all, having two versions of a movie is a LOT more feasible than having two versions of an episode of the TV show. You know, since movies are special and all that.

Fourth of all, it's highly unlikely that they would pick this ONE THING to "fix" when they left all the hundreds of other animation errors untouched.

I think you're looking at the paint edits in the early Kanto edits, comparing them to the paint edits made today, and concluding that they couldn't possibly have been done by the same people. But they are. One reason the show's edits look less tacky today is because the paint editors have a LOT more experience doing this kind of thing than they did back in 1997.

There's also the fact that the show is not done digitally, making it much easier to make convincing edits. Vegetto EX, over on the Daizenshuu EX forums, sums it up nicely. Of course, he's talking about Dragon Ball Z, but everything below applies to Pokemon as well:

Mostly because DragonBall was a weekly television show. Compare the budget of that, animated by hand from 1986-1995, to a show that's done digitally in 2005.

What is done with a show animated by hand is that the cels and such are literally glued together and scanned in to a film master. Sometimes you'll see that white crud at the top/bottom of a screen when the scene changes; that's the glue from the original process. It's also why things shift around a little bit. It was all done by hand. Gainax is most notorious for this.

Now, when FUNimation goes to "edit" the show, they're editing something that's already floating around on the screen ever-so-slightly. It doesn't sit still. But they're editing with things that DO sit still, because they're doing it digitally with computers. They plop things on the screen, and those things don't move. But the show DOES move around a little bit. To try and match up the minute pixel-differences of what's behind what they're editing is beyond impossible. Every second, there's approximately 30 frames. (I've had to do some of that when I'm masking and super-imposing in AMVs... it's insane.)

Here's more:

Well, that's kind of a different matter. Poor film editing leads to extreme misalignment of the footage, which basically causes the image to suddenly and violently jump on the screen. You'll notice this when they cut from one scene to another (watch the original footage towards the beginning of Evangelion episode 1 to see a good example of this).

However, when you watch DragonBall, if you look closely at the edges of the picture, you'll see that the image is almost always moving. That's why it looks like the digital sign is floating around on the image. But this soft movement is actually from poor photography, not editing. Back in the days of cel animation, the cels would be photographed one at a time onto the film (like stop-and-go animation). The background/cel were manually aligned and photographed, so with a show being made as quickly as DragonBall, it's only natural that not every image would turn out perfectly. You can basically follow where the photographer started going off and back on track by watching which direction the image is floating towards.

Using digital animation fixes all these problems, which is why the edits today look much better than the edits from back in the day.

 

[TK n Happy Ness]

You'd better have a reliable source for this. Somehow I doubt that that's how it works at all.

Topic - Who gives a shit?

Well why else do you think they have so many pointless paint edits? And as for the cleavage edits, they had those with Rouge in the early Sonic X Series 2 eps. I don't remember when they stopped, but it might have been due to Sega (they've gotten on 4Kids' back before). Here's what got them in trouble (this is from Sonic X Ep 17).

NOTE: When this episode first aired in the US, 'The servers are the seven Chaos' was changed to 'Collect the seven Chaos Emeralds, and the mystery shall be revealed'. However, SEGA quickly blasted 4Kids for this screw-up and they re-recorded the correct line.

 

[FabuVinny]

The same can be applied in Pokémon for Lucario's disappearance from the opening and the changing of the names of the Aqua/Magma admins.

But "why else?" is not a reliable source.

 

[Herakurosu]

The thing that gets me about this kind of thing is that with all the influence they hold over the original version these days it still isn't sufficient to meet their standards of blandness.

 

[Water Pokémon Master]

I'm going to strongly disagree with that theory for the simple fact that there's proof that there's two versions of the Deoxys movie but absolutely none proving the existence of a second version of "A Three Team Scheme." If you can track down the episode, in Japanese, without the dolls in the Secret Base, THEN I might believe you.

What I mean is that they make the episode, send it out to 4Kids, and then realize they make a mistake and correct it for when it airs in Japan. I know from a very reliable source that 4Kids gets the eps almost a year before they air.

Second of all, the paint edit in "A Three Team Scheme" is very obviously done by 4Kids. You can tell they just took the snout (for lack of a better word) of a Wailord, recolored it, and stuck it on the front of the Relicanth. If the Japanese went back and "fixed their mistake," as you propose, they would've simply redrawn the pokemon instead of trying to recreate it using exisiting pictures they have saved on their hard drive.

I'm not sure about that, but how do you know the Japanese would had done it your way (not trying to attack you, just wondering)?

Third of all, having two versions of a movie is a LOT more feasible than having two versions of an episode of the TV show. You know, since movies are special and all that.

So TV shows are not allowed to edit something at a later time?

Fourth of all, it's highly unlikely that they would pick this ONE THING to "fix" when they left all the hundreds of other animation errors untouched.

As you have said, there is now technology that allows animators to easily fix a mistake. If there was a continuation error in a Three Team Scheme, or any other episode for that matter, the animators would had easily been able to go back and fix them, right?

I think you're looking at the paint edits in the early Kanto edits, comparing them to the paint edits made today, and concluding that they couldn't possibly have been done by the same people. But they are. One reason the show's edits look less tacky today is because the paint editors have a LOT more experience doing this kind of thing than they did back in 1997.

Yes I know. I shouldn't had said anything about that sandwitch edit, as I wasn't even paying too close of attention to the TV when it came on and was half asleep. Looking at your images, you can definately tell they were edited. Yet, the question still remains, was it 4Kids or the Japanese? We can't really know.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't think we should always be pointing fingers at 4Kids when we don't really know what they do and what they don't do.

 

[Dogasu]

What I mean is that they make the episode, send it out to 4Kids, and then realize they make a mistake and correct it for when it airs in Japan. I know from a very reliable source that 4Kids gets the eps almost a year before they air.

Please. You can look at the scene and tell that it was 4Kids' digital paint at work. The idea that the Japanese "fixed" some supposed "mistake" before they aired it in Japan but after they sent the episode to 4Kids is absurd at best.

I'm not sure about that, but how do you know the Japanese would had done it your way (not trying to attack you, just wondering)?

Because it's a hell of a lot easier to get one of the animators who originally worked on the scene to redraw a picture of Relicanth that it would to fake it the way 4Kids did.

So TV shows are not allowed to edit something at a later time?

They can, but they don't. Why spend the time and money to "fix" a mistake on a show when TV-Tokyo almost never reruns any of the AG episodes?

Besides that, there's no mistake in "A Three Team Scheme" regarding the dolls that needed to be "fixed" in the first place.

As you have said, there is now technology that allows animators to easily fix a mistake. If there was a continuation error in a Three Team Scheme, or any other episode for that matter, the animators would had easily been able to go back and fix them, right?

You're repeating yourself here, so I'll respond by doing the same. They could have gone back and fix it, but they wouldn''t because it's not worth the time or money. If they can't be bothered to go back and fix the many times they forgot color in the Rocket-Dan's gloves (a repair that would take them all of five minutes to do), why do you think they'd bother with anything else?

Yes I know. I shouldn't had said anything about that sandwitch edit, as I wasn't even paying too close of attention to the TV when it came on and was half asleep. Looking at your images, you can definately tell they were edited. Yet, the question still remains, was it 4Kids or the Japanese? We can't really know.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I don't think we should always be pointing fingers at 4Kids when we don't really know what they do and what they don't do.

Bullshit we don't know what they do and don't do.

I don't know why you're so against the idea that 4Kids puts digital paint on the shows they dub. Do you hate 4Kids that much that you don't want to admit that their paint editors are actually *good* at what they do?

4Kids just edited the Japanese-looking food into food that's more Western. Honestly, that's ALL THERE IS TO IT.

 

[Water Pokémon Master]

Yes, it is so absurd for the Japanese to make a continuation error! After all, they are perfect human beings who never make a mistake on anything! Even on one of their largest projects of the year in 2004, they made absolutely no mistakes in their movie! God forbid them to make any animation mistakes in a measly 25 minute episode!

You don't seem to understand what I am saying, Dogasu. I know 4Kids edited the scene to have American food. I am talking about OTHER things they have edited. Also, why do you keep speaking as if you know for a fact what 4Kids does and does not? The fact is, you don't, and it's wrong for you to constantly say they edit everything. Was it not you that started the whole "kill 4Kids for coloring in Deoxys" thing?

Also, I do not hate 4Kids. You might, but I am not some extremist who constantly whines over every little edit they make. I like to take the middle ground and look at BOTH sides, not just constantly stick to the "kill 4Kids" side.

 

[Dogasu]

Yes, it is so absurd for the Japanese to make a continuation error!

That's not what I meant. I was talking about how it's ridiculous to suggest that the Japanese were the ones who erased the dolls in "A Three Team Scheme" when the edit has 4Kids' name written all over it.

And I have yet to see what sort of continuity errors erasing the dolls would be fixing.

You don't seem to understand what I am saying, Dogasu. I know 4Kids edited the scene to have American food. I am talking about OTHER things they have edited.

Give examples that don't have to do with sandwiches or missing dolls.

Also, why do you keep speaking as if you know for a fact what 4Kids does and does not?

Because companies that localize anime use digital paint to edit things they need to censor/alter/don't like. 4Kids is no exception.

Was it not you that started the whole "kill 4Kids for coloring in Deoxys" thing?

No, I started the whole "looks like the edit list for Destiny Deoxys is going to be long" thing. And the list was long. What changed is, after I figured out that the people in Japan were behind the video edits (and I have proof to back that claim up), those edits were put on a separate page from the edits made by 4Kids or the time cuts made by Kids' WB!

I like to take the middle ground and look at BOTH sides, not just constantly stick to the "kill 4Kids" side.

Giving 4Kids credit for applying digital paint to a kids' show is hardly taking a "kill 4Kids" side.

 

[Water Pokémon Master]

Again, you still don't seem to understand what I am advocating. I am saying that we do not know if the differences between the American dub and Japanese dub are ALL done by 4Kids. Everyone has always assumed that any differences in the two versions is because of 4Kids, but no one really knows for sure if it is true. If no one had realized that we had gotten an earlier version of Deoxys, I am sure everyone would STILL be blaming 4Kids right now for the colored-in Deoxys and other edits.