The line between a Mary Sue and a great character and the risks

[matt0044]

For my BW fic, I intend to write Hilda as a 14 year old girl who's a true protege at Pokemon training and can really kick ass without a Pokemon. Before the series began, she would rigorously train with her mother's help to always be strong and physically fit so when out in Unova, she can take care of herself. She's an outdoorsy tomboy who would go to the forest to camp out or even train to be a real survivalist in case she gets lost as a Trainer. She loves Pokemon and can even communicate with them (in contrast with N as shown in the story), making a few forest friends she often plays with. She does have friends like Cheren and Bianca and also enjoys other stuff people normally do. She can be playful and childish when in a good mood but when the situation calls for it like when dealing with Team Plasma or in any other battle, she become a serious and strategic contender who thinks quick and holds nothing back. She's nicknamed The Battle Maiden because of this and her birth name having the exact meaning. She's also an explorer whose curiosity often lands her in trouble but she manages to get out which she considers part of the fun. She's also sweet and compassionate and prone to hugging the hell out of anything cute (just ask her Oshawott). Of course, she's not infallible and can make a few mistakes and oversights here and there. Her heroic nature makes her reckless like when she actually goes to get her Oshawott back from Team Plasma mostly with a Pidove she caught on her own (she already knew it personally though) and her own manpower but her wits allowed her to succeed in saving her starter.

Now I'm quite confident in this character. I won't self-proclaim that she's "great" but I'm sure that readers with not at all see her as a Mary Sue as far as I'm concerned since she'll have a tough time getting to the top. But, my characters aside, it makes me wonder about the fine line between an "amazing, well-rounded, badass" character and a "dull, perfect, contrived" Mary Sue. I've gone around hearing "they gotta have flaws or else they're a Sue" and such that I was once afraid that my protagonist would be ripped apart due to all of the above. But I'm now confident that if I give her a shot, things might not be (so) bad. All the same, I have to ask about this difference I've come to be aware of.

 

[LightningTopaz]

The way I see it, it's not so much as having flaws as it is how much of a struggle the character has. (although flaws do play a role.) If she wins without so much as breaking a sweat, masters a complex subject in an unreasonably fast timeframe, has superpowers and/or magical powers where they wouldn't make sense, and/or has everyone as an ally without having to work to maintain the relationship, we have a problem.

 

[AetherX]

I agree with LT. As long as she encounters problems and has to deal with issues, I don't care how awesome she is at everything.

 

[matt0044]

I agree with LT. As long as she encounters problems and has to deal with issues, I don't care how awesome she is at everything.

Well, she and her Oshawott lose their first three battles against her mother and a Patrat, Bianca and her Tepig and Cheren and his Snivy but it's mostly because of Oshawott's Anxiety (it is his first time with a Trainer) which Hilda sorts out as she likes to get personal with the Pokemon she catches. She runs into issues like with butting heads with N and his beliefs that seem outlandish to her and with Team Plasma and Gym battles as well, she always has her work cut out her. I intend to make her earn her victories with blood, sweat and tears. Plus, when the Heroes of Unova legend comes into play, things get more complicated for her and if you play the games, you can imagine how.

 

[Sushi-X]

Think of it like this:

If you write a story about how this character wins everything with ease and always wins and never loses and etc., your pretty much just writing a list of achievements.

And nobody in their right mind wants to hear that.

Now if you write about the troubles, the romance, the friends, and all of the enemies and heartbreaks the character had to go through to get there makes for an epic tale.

 

[matt0044]

Now if you write about the troubles, the romance, the friends, and all of the enemies and heartbreaks the character had to go through to get there makes for an epic tale.

Good way of putting it. I actually know all this but my doubts made me pop the question about the specifics. I'm kinda self-conscious like that.

 

[Sushi-X]

Its fine. Even though one may know what lies in the dark, it is always nice to occasionally turn on a light.

 

[matt0044]

Its fine. Even though one may know what lies in the dark, it is always nice to occasionally turn on a light.

There's also that infamous "I don't like this character so I'm labeling her/him a Mary Sue/Gary Stu" mindset that I'd encounter in the Anime forums where characters like Dawn or Iris would be labeled as such when technically it's not true. So I guess that made me worry.

 

[Fig]

The best way to avoid getting your characters named Mary Sue isn't giving them flaw; it's making all the major characters as good as she is...especially the main villain.

James Bond doesn't have much by ways of flaws, at all (he's a total Gary Stu, really). He doesn't need to (and yet is humongously popular), because, at the end of the day, the villains he faces are nearly as good as he is. If Gary Stu is battling a villain Sue, no one will pay much attention to the fact that they're both Sues, because even without giving them flaws you will be able to have each of them manage to pull surprise punches on the other along the way. Not because of Bond's imperfection, but because he's facing someone as good as he is.

Major supporting character should also be close to your character in skill (or better), so that it's not always your MC solving issues - sometime it's his allies. For example, there have been people to say Harry Potter is a Mary Sue. But not many, because while Harry (except in book 5-6, which are the least populars ones for a reason) doesn't show that much by way of flaws, Hermione at least is almost always on his level (trading Harry's courage for massive intelligence). (Ron less so...Ron is also the least popular of the trio).

Finally, and that one only applies to fanfiction, your character doesn't need flaws, but he should be no better than the same level as the official characters (if any official characters appear in the story). This ties in to the above two points: your character should be surrounded by, and facing, characters who are equal to him (or better), no matter how few flaws he has.

At the end of the day, there's actually a good reason not to insist too much on flaws - identification. You want your readers, in a lot of cases, to identify with the main characters. The readers don't like to identify with flaws (at all). They'd much prefer identify with someone whom they can think of as an idealized version of themselves. So the "give 'em flaws" advice, while it fits perfectly well in some genres of writing, just isn't always good advice.

 

[CrackFox]

It's a very childish accusation anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it. Just write the kinds of characters you invision. If someone is going to find a floor in them, it might as well be the old 'mary-sue' brush, because if it isn't, it will only be something else. Just write what you feel happy with, and if it's good, it's good.

 

[Phoenix502]

truth be told... when I started writing my story, I had conflicts initially planned at a certain point, but at the same time had a bit of a clueless streak going on in regards to writing. it wasn't until someone mentioned that my protagonist was like a Marty Stu (she told me to look it up on TVTropes when it didn't click), it felt a like a wake-up call when i looked back and, sure enough, my character did have some sore traits. granted, I modified the overall story to perhaps rectify most of the problem, but it did help me develop in making conflicts and that sort of thing...

the unfortunate side effect of the source of the information... I found myself stuck on TVTropes...

 

[matt0044]

the unfortunate side effect of the source of the information... I found myself stuck on TVTropes...

Trust me, I know how you feel.

 

[LightningTopaz]

Yeah--you can spend hours there if you're not careful

 

[AceTrainer14]

I think a lot of people overreact about the whole 'Mary Sue' issue. I had a friend that showed me a quiz once that listed about 100 things, and basically anything a character could possibly have could lead to them being considered a 'Mary Sue' by this quiz. When I only got a low score looking at one character, my friend tried to say that a character having supernatural abilities made them a Mary Sue, which I thought was a bit ridiculous.

I must agree with what has been said: a character should have things that makes them relatable for the reader, and not a glossy, perfect character that has everything go wrong. However, I wouldn't say make them have a million struggles or they fail at everything and then magically get better. I always get annoyed on some TV shows when the villain always manages to win, as it kind of defeats the hero if they just lose all the time, and it makes their inevitable win seem rather unrealistic. So maybe having her lose to all three of those people may be a bit of an overkill: maybe her Oshawott could still be anxious, but maybe in one battle it wins accidentally? That way you could give another character a chance to develop as well. That is just my personal suggestion, but if what you had planned works for the overall story, than ignore my little rant

 

[matt0044]

So maybe having her lose to all three of those people may be a bit of an overkill: maybe her Oshawott could still be anxious, but maybe in one battle it wins accidentally? That way you could give another character a chance to develop as well. That is just my personal suggestion, but if what you had planned works for the overall story, than ignore my little rant

Well, after the third battle at the laboratory in a sort of check up overlooked by Juniper, Oshawott gets sad that he may've ruined Hilda's chances at becoming a Trainer but Hilda reassures the little guy that she doesn't hate him and she won't abandon him. Oshawott had a fear, thanks to a cynical Snivy telling him, that Trainers were very picky and Hilda would return him after he proved to be dead weight who couldn't win a single battle after a while. Hilda proves him wrong.

Then Team Plasma comes and throughout Episodes 1 through 3 (a big three parter), Oshawott certainly proves his worth.

 

[TheLlama]

So my main character is reasonably intelligent, good at reading people, a decent battler and generally has received the goods of life in a basket from God.

What will, in my eyes, avoid making her a Sue is the fact that she still has struggles. Being new to pokemon training obviously means talent's only gonna get her so far. She has her convoluted reasons for doing what she does and they will be a driving force throughout the story - also, she's got some real personal issues on the side. Her starter pokemon isn't cut out for battling either, which is one momentum of the personal struggle side (but by no means an actual handicap to her battling strength; "she's strong but her pokemon sucks" would be too plain a reason - after all, she catches other pokemon, and she knows what she's doing when looking for strong ones). She also experiences issues with other people; the ups and downs of relationships gets to even the most socially and emotionally intelligent and mature of people, and that will be an important part of the story. Moreover, her opposition is more than strong enough for her - actually, she doesn't really stand a chance against the bad guys because, well, they are experienced and she is not. There's no way a rookie trainer could beat an experienced adult unless the latter used pokemon of lower quality than the rookie, that's just fact.

There's also a character on the good guy side who's strong enough to thrash a champion like they were, well, trash, whose strength is capably justified both through talents, battling experience and several personal reasons leading to the required drive and motivation to become someone like that.

So basically, make them have issues, struggles - they don't have to be flaws as much as they are emotions - real emotions, relatable emotions; emotions that makes sense within the context of the story, their personal story and their person. Not some cheap flaw or obviously contrived emotional issues; pick something you could relate to. Try and see them as a real person.

 

[matt0044]

Moreover, her opposition is more than strong enough for her - actually, she doesn't really stand a chance against the bad guys because, well, they are experienced and she is not. There's no way a rookie trainer could beat an experienced adult unless the latter used pokemon of lower quality than the rookie, that's just fact.

I'd love to explain how I intend to do something more along the lines of the opposite where Hilda, her Pokemon and friends/acquaintances do hold their own against Team Plasma but my justifications might end up spoiling the whole dang series and a twist I was going build up to. I only hope that the actual story and it's explanations for why are viable. I'm afraid I can only tell you so much here so bear with me.

 

[TheLlama]

I can further discuss it if you send me a PM (I don't really care about spoilers).

 

[matt0044]

I can further discuss it if you send me a PM (I don't really care about spoilers).

Are you sure? If yes, then you better keep them secret yourself.

 

[unrepentantAuthor]

For my BW fic, I intend to write Hilda as a 14 year old girl who's a true protege at Pokemon training and can really kick ass without a Pokemon. Before the series began, she would rigorously train with her mother's help to always be strong and physically fit so when out in Unova, she can take care of herself. She's an outdoorsy tomboy who would go to the forest to camp out or even train to be a real survivalist in case she gets lost as a Trainer. She loves Pokemon and can even communicate with them (in contrast with N as shown in the story), making a few forest friends she often plays with. She does have friends like Cheren and Bianca and also enjoys other stuff people normally do. She can be playful and childish when in a good mood but when the situation calls for it like when dealing with Team Plasma or in any other battle, she become a serious and strategic contender who thinks quick and holds nothing back. She's nicknamed The Battle Maiden because of this and her birth name having the exact meaning. She's also an explorer whose curiosity often lands her in trouble but she manages to get out which she considers part of the fun. She's also sweet and compassionate and prone to hugging the hell out of anything cute (just ask her Oshawott). Of course, she's not infallible and can make a few mistakes and oversights here and there. Her heroic nature makes her reckless like when she actually goes to get her Oshawott back from Team Plasma mostly with a Pidove she caught on her own (she already knew it personally though) and her own manpower but her wits allowed her to succeed in saving her starter.

Now I'm quite confident in this character. I won't self-proclaim that she's "great" but I'm sure that readers with not at all see her as a Mary Sue as far as I'm concerned since she'll have a tough time getting to the top. But, my characters aside, it makes me wonder about the fine line between an "amazing, well-rounded, badass" character and a "dull, perfect, contrived" Mary Sue. I've gone around hearing "they gotta have flaws or else they're a Sue" and such that I was once afraid that my protagonist would be ripped apart due to all of the above. But I'm now confident that if I give her a shot, things might not be (so) bad. All the same, I have to ask about this difference I've come to be aware of.

This is a very difficult post for me to respond to. You're obviously recognisant of Mary Sues to an acceptable extent, and it's entirely possible to write this character without her being a Sue. However, there is sufficient basis in your description to suspect she is or could easily become a Sue. It is true, first of all, that Hilda is exceptional. Secondly, that she has no real flaws. Thirdly, that her persona is not well defined. Fourthly, that her struggles do not indicate personal development.

-Hilda is fourteen. It is believable that she could handle herself in the wild for a few days with supplies, but being a full-on survivalist is near impossible. You call her a protege: "A person who is guided and supported by an older and more experienced person or mentor." I think you meant to call her a prodigy: "An extremely talented person, especially a child." In any case, being a prodigy does veer towards being uninterestingly good. Kicking ass without a pokémon could mean a number of things, but if you literally mean that she can fight people, that's not believable either. Hell, she can communicate to pokémon in a world where this is unusual (not in itself a bad trait, but made worse when she has so many other things going for her).

-Hilda 'often lands in trouble,' but I do not know why. She always gets out, too, so that's not even a real obstacle. I don't know if there's any reason for someone to dislike her. I don't know how she's going to change as a character. I don't know what part of her persona is a hindrance. These are the things that make a character worthwhile to read about. I'm not even talking about "sometimes, x thing will lead to failure!" No, I'm talking about giving a strong battler some personality fault like hubris, or rashness, or inconsideration. Hilda appears to have no such characterisation. No, her recklessness doesn't count, as it doesn't detract from her abilities, and can be considered bravery instead, especially as she succeeds. Even worse, she makes a few mistakes 'here and there'. This is a begrudging acknowledgment that she's not entirely perfect, not an assurance that she's actually realistic.

-Hilda is sometimes serious! Hilda is sometimes playful! Hilda likes cute things! Hilda likes pokémon! (That last one is basically gratis for any protag, no?) These are not sophisticated personality-defining traits, and are common to the vast majority of people in her demographic. They tell me nothing about her beliefs, attitudes or worldview. They do not differentiate her whatsoever from most journeyfic protags. They are not interesting.

-Hilda does not have everything go her way. Fine, that's a step in the right direction, but if her obstacles merely present a challenging struggle to overcome, that's still not ideal. Sure, she's actually earning her success, but it barely safeguards her from Sue-dom. A good character does not start out utterly badass and solve a bunch of problems by trying harder. A good character is at first inadequate, and has to develop. A truly well thought-out character fails because of some critical mistake in themselves, learns, changes, grows. (This is not some universal rule, merely a very solid trend, especially in bildungsromans about young children. It is advisable to remember that Hilda is not as competent and mature as an adult and therefore should inevitably be extremely fallible.)

Hilda's going to need some work to become a convincingly rounded character. I've already mentioned a few things to work on, I'm sure you can find a way to deal with those.

It's a very childish accusation anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it. Just write the kinds of characters you invision. If someone is going to find a floor in them, it might as well be the old 'mary-sue' brush, because if it isn't, it will only be something else. Just write what you feel happy with, and if it's good, it's good.

I strongly disagree with this post. I've elided over the other posts here because by and large they're pretty decent, but this post is dismissive of all criticism as the fault of the reader, and attempting to justify carte blanche to write whatever without regard for assessment of any kind, however valid it may be. It is not an attitude at all conducive to improving as a writer. Furthermore, if a character is genuinely a Mary Sue, I fail to see how pointing it out could even be reasonably considered 'childish'. In my view, it's refusing to acknowledge criticism that is childish.