The Mystery Dungeon Dilemma

[Epic Meowth]

Hey folks, first discussion topic so go easy on me. XP

Anyways, the Pokemon world is already known to be a vast one, from the lands explored in the main series, to the ones found in the Ranger games, and finally those only explored in the anime (though some towns are arguably just for purpose of filler). However, all of these things have one thing in common in the Poke-verse, and that is the interaction of humans.

Enter the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon series. Humans are mentioned, yet never seen. Here you have a society of Pokemon, communicating and creating their own town, jobs, CURRENCY. One could argue that it's an isolated event, but when the events of the SECOND batch of Mystery Dungeon games take place, it's a whole new town that works in much of the same way. What does this tell us?

Pokemon are smart.
Pokemon are civilized.
Pokemon can set and follow through with plans/goals.
Pokemon can easily communicate with one another.
They can get an economy going.

Knowing all this, there are many things I want to discuss in this topic.

1. Where do these Pokemon societies fit in the Pokemon world?
2. Where do humans fit as a result?
3. Mystery Dungeon 1 and 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

Pokemon are always described as not being evil; they are just at the mercy of bad trainers or confused. What does this say of Pokemon like Gengar, Skuntank or even Dusknoir? Pokemon fueled by greed and malice, one who actively tries to kill the character. On that note, Dusknoir attempts murder via Fury Swipes. Pretty brutal and evil, no?

4. On the subject of #3, What are the values/goals of Pokemon compared to humans? Are they some type of "World Protectors", or are they, in the end, flawed and "just human" so to speak?


I'll leave the listing at those four, but as you can see, there is much to discuss as to how the world of Pokemon and the Mystery Dungeon settings fit into the established world of the main series and anime. Given that we have 4 games made, a 5th on the way, and 2 anime specials with a 3rd coming, I think it's safe to say that the Mystery Dungeon series warrants a bit of discussion, and may very well play a large part in how the world of Pokemon works.

 

[System Error]

Short answer: they screwed up

Long answer: The world of Pokemon Mystery Dungeon can be seen as a parallel universe to the actual Pokemon world, where the rules of that unverse don't apply.

If you're trying to make sense of them all being in the same universe which in that case lord help you: The parts about Pokemon not being evil could simply be a mistranslation or a misunderstanding. In the latter case, it means that what the people in the Pokemon world think they know they are wrong about, as do certain Pokemon. It could also mean, going off various themes in literature (though doing that is giving the Japanese a little too much credit), that Pokemon, like humans, are not born evil, but can be corrupted. The societies fit in wherever they're allowed to prosper, and humans simply fit in as they always have in the Pokemon world. They're never mentioned in the Mystery Dungeon games because they don't tie into the plot, even though tying them into the plot could make for interesting results, a la Ecco the Dolphin: Defender of the Future. Pokemon are just other sentient creatures living on the same planet as humans, who...either somehow all came from one source or were created by a deity.

If you ask me, though, whoever developed the Mystery Dungeon games just screwed up, and it can be taken as a parellel universe. That's it, really. And the TV show is another universe. Some design choices, like them speaking in human language, is just a way to make it presentable as a video game. Trying to make sense out of megamedia like Pokemon is like trying to sort fecal matter based on what dumped it out. You need to look at everything closely for the slightest hint of difference through a complete and total mess, but it stinks, you'll need to dirty yourself to find those slight differences, some of it may be bullshit, and in the end, you'll either find that it made no sense, or succeed, albeit through extreme twistedness. And just like creatures that produce fecal matter, things work differently on the inside of game companies, too, so what one shits out might not always match up with what another shits out.

(I'm not proud of that analogy, by the way)

Though in this particular case's defense, it's not nearly as bad as some of the stuff I've seen. A reasonable conclusion can be reached, though don't go looking too much deeper than what's been touched on so far.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

3. Mystery Dungeon 1 and 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

Pokemon are always described as not being evil; they are just at the mercy of bad trainers or confused. What does this say of Pokemon like Gengar, Skuntank or even Dusknoir? Pokemon fueled by greed and malice, one who actively tries to kill the character. On that note, Dusknoir attempts murder via Fury Swipes. Pretty brutal and evil, no?

Spoiler

Gengar was human once. That's his curse, after all.

But as for the rest, as I've said before, pokemon can't be equated to real animals what with their advanced intelligences and all, and even outside the MD series there's talk of evil pokemon. Look at Spiritomb's dex entry.

 

[ShinyAeon]

Spiritomb is the rule-breaker for the "no evil Pokemon" thing, that's for sure. But it's kind of a weird case, being a conglomerate of multiple spirits...perhaps it's actually a case of Spiritomb NOT being a Pokemon, but behaving as one because of the binding spells placed on it....

As for the rest, I don't see any reason assume that "regular universe" Pokemon are the same as MD-verse Pokemon...after all, if they were, then "regular" Pokemon would have set up villages, currency, etc. on their own already in the wild, and would be dealing with the humans through ambassadors and elected officials.

Regular Pokemon are inarguably intelligent, obviously socially complex, and if not sentient then damn close, but there's still a wide gap between that and civilization building... I see MD as a parallel place where Pokemon HAVE reached that point, which would make MD-verse Pokemon as remarkable in the regular Pokeverse as Narnia's Talking Animals would be in the RL-verse.

 

[Epic Meowth]

One of my concerns though, is how the MD universe has humans, although they are only refrenced. Not only that, but there's also the player character's disbelief and wonder at the new world of Pokemon that he's entered. It's something fresh and new, so it kinda rules out Pokemon being at a point of openly creating societies and sending ambassadors and such. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say humans have no idea of the Pokemon societies.

And sure, the alternate universe argument works, but there's seldom a case where it DOESN'T work. Looking beyond it for a moment, I'd like to see if there's a possibility the MD series can coincide with at least one of the established universes, just to get some brainstorming going, y'know?

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Maybe MD coincides with Magical Pokemon Journey. The pokemon have societies independent of humans even though they also live among them, so it seems to be the closest parallel.

 

[pokechamp116]

This is how it happened, pokemon got all advanced, palkia put humans in another dimension, dialga got pokemon from before they were advanced, and sent them with humans. And dialga got humans before we met them and palkia put us in another dimension. then, darkrai broke the rules, came here, introduced us to pokemon, and was caught by cresselia before he told us of all the pokemon. now, he comes here and tells us of more things about pokemon, and pokemon themselves, but can't finish thanx 2 cresselia. There, the end! now im gonna wak u wit a hamma! :mallet:

 

[Lil Brother]

Random, horribly wrong idea: the Mystery Dungeon world (or worlds, considering there are multiple interpretations over different media; do MD1 and MD2 even exist in the same universe?) is a future version of the "modern" Pokémon worlds, in which humans are the dominant species. The Pokémon's intellect has naturally increased over a long period of time, and they have pretty much taken over the world generations before the stories of the Mystery Dungeon series take place. Thus, humanity currently only lives in small pockets throughout the world. Mmm, I guess the most likely scenario neccesary for that to occuer would be some apocalyptic event which mainly affected humans, allowing Pokémon to develop into more complex beings in their place. As for where human landmarks have all dissappeared to, perhaps they have been largely demolished, and any remaining centuries-old ruins we simply don't see.

 

[pokechamp116]

A couple of things wrong with that idea. If humans live on the world, then how come you don't see them while exploring? surely there'd be one or two humans surviving on that continent. And, if it were apoclyptic, then all life forms would be affected, like on animal armageddon. And, second to last, what pokemon would demolish human landmarks? especially after what humans have done for them in the pokemon ranger games. surly they wouldn't forget, being as "advanced" as they are. Those characters would go down in history, such as Dialga and Palkia have. And not seeing them is pretty much impossible, since we explore the entire continent in both games. And, lastly, you only think its random because of da hamma. Guess what time it is, Mr.Snooty pants. It's hamma time! :mallet::mallet::mallet::mallet::mallet::mallet::mallet:

 

[Magmaster12]

What I really don't get is how did a human get in to the pokemon world in the future (or grovyles partner) in PM2 that's something I really don't get

[/spoiler]

 

[pokechamp116]

thats because dialga new what was going to happen, being king of time. and asked dialga to get a trainer from the other universe beforehand. then, he sent them to the future because he knew stuff.

 

[Pokenutter]

I support the parallel universe theory. Addressing Magmortar's comment, there are two possible answers when we bring parallel universes into the picture. One, The collapse of time brought the MD universe crashing into the mainstream Pokemon Universe, and Two, If anyone else has seen the last few episodes of season 4 of the Doctor Who reboot, what happened in one universe was felt in all of the others. The collapse of time in the MD universe was felt in the mainstream universe, and Celebi sent Grovyle and (subject name here) back in time. However, due to the player losing their grip, Grovyle had to jump off after the player, landing them in the right place in space and time, but the wrong reality. Complicated, I know, but if you think about it...