The REAL Problem with the American Auto Industry

[The Big Al]

I'm getting tired of people complaining about the UAW being the source of all the American Auto Industry's woes. They talk about how union demands add more than $1,000 to each car.

Well, news flash, the Europeans and Japanese who have been kicking our asses are just as unionized. They have the exact issues as the American car companies.

The problem is three fold.

The first if the U.S. government. Japan and the European nations' governments provide services for workers the U.S. governent doesn't. The biggie being health care. So the companies have to pay for it themselves. Instead of trying to strip the union workers of their health care, the auto companies should instead push the U.S. government provide it.

The seond is that the leaders of the auto companies are giving themselves bonuses despite their companies aren't doing well. They talk about how money could be saved without union demands, I wonder how much could be knocked off if the corporate greed was removed.

The third is the fact these people sucking the companies dry are idiots. They tend to cut R & D and marketing which leads to faulty vehicles and botched marketing ploys. The G6 is a favorite of mine. It's a Grand Am with a new name plate and costs $6,000 more. Yet the Grand Am is still in production so people will by the cheaper Grand Am and the G6's rot in the lot.

I know it's easy to blame the unions but they're not the source of all the troubles. In fact, their actual impact is probably quite small when these three factors are tken into consideration.

 

[Kadabra]

You've got it wrong. The main problem with American cars is that the quality is absolute crap. This may not be the union's fault, but it certainly is as a result of the workers' attitude towards work.

Fact: When an identical model is produced in both Japan and the States, with the same equipment and processes, the American car will always have a lot more defects. Anyone should be able to see who's at fault here. My suggestion for you is to go and join the workforce, and see what sort of attitude the average worker has towards his job. Then again, you're unfortunate to have grown up in the US, so you don't have a broad enough range to compare angainst, and will probably no notice anything wrong. :/

Oh, and you're absolutely wrong about the marketing statement. Good marketing skill is the ONLY reason American cars have been sold to begin with. In fact, the only thing American car companies can do right is marketing.

 

[The Big Al]

You've got it wrong. The main problem with American cars is that the quality is absolute crap. This may not be the union's fault, but it certainly is as a result of the workers' attitude towards work.

Actually, its because the bosses have fired all the Engineers. Latest lay off by GM were to fire engineers. The factory workers only built what they're told to build. If it's crap, they build crap.

Fact: When an identical model is produced in both Japan and the States, with the same equipment and processes, the American car will always have a lot more defects. Anyone should be able to see who's at fault here. My suggestion for you is to go and join the workforce, and see what sort of attitude the average worker has towards his job. Then again, you're unfortunate to have grown up in the US, so you don't have a broad enough range to compare angainst, and will probably no notice anything wrong. :/

Do I hear a hint of racism? Again, it's the lack of good engineering which was a result of decisions at the top.

Oh, and you're absolutely wrong about the marketing statement. Good marketing skill is the ONLY reason American cars have been sold to begin with. In fact, the only thing American car companies can do right is marketing.

People are busting their asses to make cars and you're calling them lazy and sloppy. Then you say the only thing they can do is market cars. You little right wing, anti-worker piece of slime.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Actually, its because the bosses have fired all the Engineers. Latest lay off by GM were to fire engineers. The factory workers only built what they're told to build. If it's crap, they build crap.

Do I hear a hint of racism? Again, it's the lack of good engineering which was a result of decisions at the top.

People are busting their asses to make cars and you're calling them lazy and sloppy. Then you say the only thing they can do is market cars. You little right wing, anti-worker piece of slime.

No, American cars just suck because Japanese workers are more educated and dedicated. American car workers are just guys who got a crash course in screwing a wheel to an axle or putting a bumper on a car. They obviously are working lazily because they're making pieces of shit.

 

[The Big Al]

No, American cars just suck because Japanese workers are more educated and dedicated. American car workers are just guys who got a crash course in screwing a wheel to an axle or putting a bumper on a car. They obviously are working lazily because they're making pieces of shit.

You ignored my entire post. What part of "they fired the engineers" don't you understand? They've fired more engineers than production workers. The engineers design the cars. With less engineers, the chances for defects and problems increase because less eyes examine the designs. The workers are doing what their tolded. THey don't have engineering degrees and trust the engineers to have made sound designs. The Japanese workers are the exact same but they have better engineers designing the cars. I live up here and read the news. My dad is also in the engineering department as a sawman and he complains constantly about the cuts GM constantly makes in engineering. So someone in the middle of the bible beater belt has some nerve claiming that it's the workers fault, not realizing that there are many places the designs could go wrong before they reach the factory floor. Many of the people in the factories have been making cars since before you were born and American cars used to be of real quality. I will gladly admit that quality has gone down the toilet but it's not the fault of the workers.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

You ignored my entire post. What part of "they fired the engineers" don't you understand? They've fired more engineers than production workers. The engineers design the cars. With less engineers, the chances for defects and problems increase because less eyes examine the designs. The workers are doing what their tolded. THey don't have engineering degrees and trust the engineers to have made sound designs. The Japanese workers are the exact same but they have better engineers designing the cars. I live up here and read the news. My dad is also in the engineering department as a sawman and he complains constantly about the cuts GM constantly makes in engineering. So someone in the middle of the bible beater belt has some nerve claiming that it's the workers fault, not realizing that there are many places the designs could go wrong before they reach the factory floor. Many of the people in the factories have been making cars since before you were born and American cars used to be of real quality. I will gladly admit that quality has gone down the toilet but it's not the fault of the workers.

I'm referring to the actual construction of the car, not the design. The workers are doing a shitty job because the cars fall apart for minor stuff. As for the Japanese companies, they do better because they train their workers better. There's a Hyundai plant near where I live, a Toyota plant not real far from me, and a Kia plant planned nearby. Their cars don't suck like American cars.

Gotta love the ad hominem from some proletarian little Rust Belt-boy.

 

[The Big Al]

I'm referring to the actual construction of the car, not the design. The workers are doing a shitty job because the cars fall apart for minor stuff. As for the Japanese companies, they do better because they train their workers better. There's a Hyundai plant near where I live, a Toyota plant not real far from me, and a Kia plant planned nearby. Their cars don't suck like American cars.

When I said design, I mean the development of the car. Alot of the rpoblems with American cars are engineering errors. If anything, your arguements about your factories would say the problem is not the American workers but the American engineers are the lack there of. They just make the cars the way they're told and if they're told make a crappy car, they make a crappy car.

Gotta love the ad hominem from some proletarian little Rust Belt-boy.

Gotta love the ad hominem of some Bible Beater Belt redneck airhead. Especially one who acts like he knows something about a subject he couldn't be more removed from. And I'd watch the word "little" because I'm likely bigger than you are.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

When I said design, I mean the development of the car. Alot of the rpoblems with American cars are engineering errors. If anything, your arguements about your factories would say the problem is not the American workers but the American engineers are the lack there of. They just make the cars the way they're told and if they're told make a crappy car, they make a crappy car.

Gotta love the ad hominem of some Bible Beater Belt redneck airhead. Especially one who acts like he knows something about a subject he couldn't be more removed from. And I'd watch the word "little" because I'm likely bigger than you are.

And I'm not talking about the development, I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of it. American cars are simply not put together as well.

Lol, striking a nerve with you, I see. Whatever, I can take comfort in the fact that I'm more priviliged and not from a heritage of slaving away in some factory.

 

[The Big Al]

And I'm not talking about the development, I'm talking about the nuts and bolts of it. American cars are simply not put together as well.

And I'm saying that's because minor bugs that would usually be picked are now more likely to reach the floor because of less engineering oversight. You just don't seem to understand how this works. So why don't you just shut up because you're making yourself sound like an idiot.

Lol, striking a nerve with you, I see. Whatever, I can take comfort in the fact that I'm more priviliged and not from a heritage of slaving away in some factory.

At least I'm doing something with my life instead of stabbing good Americans in the back.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

And I'm saying that's because minor bugs that would usually be picked are now more likely to reach the floor because of less engineering oversight. You just don't seem to understand how this works. So why don't you just shut up because you're making yourself sound like an idiot.

At least I'm doing something with my life instead of stabbing good Americans in the back.

For the last goddamn time, I'm not referring to the inherent flaws in the design, I'm referring to the poor workmanship of the workers. Loose bolts, electrical faults, off-centered things, etc. are all caused by poor workmanship by the workers on the assembly line.

And good job living some piddly job as news weatherman while I ride my background and talents all the way to the bank. Literally, because my uncle owns 3 banks, and consequently controls two small towns.

 

[Fig]

Cut that flaming.

If either of you starts up this sorts of class-ist bull crap again, I'll consider it ground for an immediate and permanent ban.

I don't want to hear how you think that any upepr class member is automatically a traitor. And I don't care how many banks your uncle own. I wouldn't even care if your uncle was the King of Hawaii or you thought upper class people ate babies for breakfast.

The only distinction that matters here is the quality of your posts.

Care to guess where this thread leaves the two of you?

 

[The Big Al]

I've been trying to get the point across that the loose bolts, electric faults, off centered things are engineering mistakes. The rough draft an engineer submits is not perfect. It's refined and minor mistakes are corrected. However, there are less engineers and so minor things like what Magcargo dexcribed make it through to the factory and the workers followed the specs given to them.

Let's take the '89 Pontiac 6000 I've been driving. The people who do work on it say it's an incredibe car. It's easily to maintain, has little problems, and will run for a good long while. Now the exact same people who built that car are more or less making the modern cars with the flaws. So Magcargo's arguement that the workers are stupid is unfounded.

Also, I follow the news up here. I follow every layoff. And for the past 5 years, the American auto companies hve been cutting back on their engineering.

And Magcargo was the one who started the class war. I was happy to discuss what was wrong with the auto comapnies since my life is litterally tied to it. I don't care that he has a bank waiting for him to take over.

 

[Mozz]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060122/AUTO01/601220408

Very good article. I'm interested to see what the plan is and how the stock reacts.

 

[The Big Al]

Considering how they handle the Lions, I don't hold out much hope for the future.

Though, I think the U.S. companies were idiots to think SUV's and overgrown trucks would carry them. Aside from the people who use their vehicle as an presentable representation of their dick, most people are happy with small cars that get them from point A to point B. Perhaps they should have spent money testing the market to find out what people want instead of money on telling people what they want.

I just wish the '80's would return (well, I'd like the '80's to return for many reasons). Like I said, the auto mechanic I take my 6000 said it's great car. My uncle also has an '87 Escort which runs just fine. Seriously, American cars used to be well constructed, long lasting vechicles. The workers on the line haven't changed that much. Instead of looking to th future, perhaps the big three should look to the past and see why they bacame the big three.

 

[Mozz]

Why did SUVs sell so well for years?

 

[Fig]

Because

1)That was before Bush, Iraq and Katrina raped them with the oil hike.

2)That was before Katrina gave them a visible demonstration that, as a matter of fact, a pissed-off mother nature (global warming) can and will smash US cities. So using less poluting cars may be a not-so-dumb idea.

 

[The Big Al]

They did do well. But the auto companies ass-u-me'd they could ride the SUV into the long future. However, when the SUV market because to fall, they didn't see the writing on the wall but the Europeans and the Japanese did. While other markets started making smaller SUV's and more cars, the big 3 sat on their porch and brushed it off as a phase, that massive SUV's would make a comeback. Well, we're still waiting.

 

[Girafarig_Magcargo]

Because

1)That was before Bush, Iraq and Katrina raped them with the oil hike.

2)That was before Katrina gave them a visible demonstration that, as a matter of fact, a pissed-off mother nature (global warming) can and will smash US cities. So using less poluting cars may be a not-so-dumb idea.

Post hoc ergo proctor hoc. We're in a 50-year cycle of numerous devastating hurricanes. Blaming it on global warming without conclusive proof is silly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Days_Before_the_Day_After_Tomorrow

I've been trying to get the point across that the loose bolts, electric faults, off centered things are engineering mistakes.

Bullshit. Design flaws in the lab don't explain some lazy worker screwing in a bolt half way or doing some half-assed job on the wiring.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Blaming it on global warming without conclusive proof is silly.

How about every major car company now putting massive amounts of money into alternative fuel research and hybrid vehicles? The next big wave of changes is supposed to include a completely new chassis that could, potentially, be used for hydrogen. And it WAS Ford that released a hybrid SUV in 2004. Car companies are VERY aware of the environment and the movement among people to use more environmentally-friendly cars. While the car companies aren't changing their ways because of global warming, that IS an indirect part of the change.

Interesting article on car companies and their plans for hybridization. Not too in-depth, but gives a basic overview.

Ford Outlines Plan to Fight Global Warming

As for rising gas prices...they rose 107% since Bush came into office, PRE-Katrina. Carter, who served during the big gas rationing only saw an increase of 85% during his 4 year term. Lots of fun facts.

 

[Mozz]

Ford's definitely doing it to help the environment, not to capitalize on a growing market.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_history.html

Up 58% since Bush came into office... That's also over a 5 year period..

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If you believe that the car companies give two shits about global warming, you have never worked in an actual company before.