The Speed Limit - A maximum, not a minimum.

[Shuko]

Maybe this is more of a rant than a debate, lol. Anyway, I'm getting sick and tired of people who think that anyone who drives the speed limit is a threat to humanity for not speeding. I drive, at most, five mph over the legal limit. That means I'm speeding, and breaking the law. I won't go higher than that though, because I can't afford to pay a $200 ticket (and yes, you can get them for so little. One of my coworkers got one like that for only going 7mph over the limit). And at the same time, I've noted that when I used to do ten or more mph higher than the limit all the way to work, I never got there more than five or six minutes faster than I do now. It's not worth a few extra minutes to risk getting a ticket and being late for work. :/

I drive in the right-hand lane, since by common opinion, I'm a slow driver. However, that doesn't stop people from riding my tail and trying to force me to go faster by inching up on me. You know what I do if you do that? I slow down. I take my foot off the gas and slow down, because the closer you are to me, the shorter your stopping distance. If I have to stop suddenly, I don't want you rear-ending me, so I'm going to decrease my speed to make up for your tiny distance. You don't like it, you can pass me. Either way I get you off my danger zone.

If you break the law, chances are you're taking a risk. But nowadays, if you obey the law, you take a risk of the same magnitude, or worse. :/ It's because so many people speed all the time that "slow drivers" like me are becoming a hazard on the roads. It's all relative. I may be doing the legal limit, but when people around me are whizzing by at ten or fifteen mph faster than I am, I'm a danger to them and myself. That's just not right. I think that people who speed frequently should have their licenses removed after so many violations. If they can do it for drunken driving, they should do it for irresponsible driving too, lol.

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

[evkl]

If you're driving with the flow of traffic, and you're not the leader of the pack or the last guy, odds are you aren't going to get a ticket.

Many states don't have a specified penalty for going 5 or less MPH over the speed limit, which means...it's not really illegal at all. Few cops will arrest you on side streets for driving less than 10 over, and on highways, less than 15 over.

 

[Shuko]

If you're driving with the flow of traffic, and you're not the leader of the pack or the last guy, odds are you aren't going to get a ticket.

Many states don't have a specified penalty for going 5 or less MPH over the speed limit, which means...it's not really illegal at all. Few cops will arrest you on side streets for driving less than 10 over, and on highways, less than 15 over.

Why should they have a specified penalty for breaking the law? I mean, the law clearly states that the speed limit posted on those signs is a state MANDATED maximum limit, and breaching that limit constitutes breaking the law, and can be criminally pursued by law officers. It makes no distinction between 20mph over or 1mph over. Over the limit is over the limit. It's up to the officer to determine how dangerous your driving is, given the driving conditions and the speed you were doing.

And I'm sorry, but using the excuse of "I was going with the flow of traffic" only works if traffic has stopped due to a funeral procession or something. The police officer can't pull everyone over, and that's exactly what he'll tell you when he pulls YOU over. xD And despite what people might think, being the leader or the end of the pack isn't the only "dangerous" place for you to be in when there's a cop around. A lot of times, cops travel in pairs. One will be guaging your speed, and then farther down the road, the second one will be gearing up to pull you over. When the first one relays your speed and car model to the other one, you're as good as ticketed.

Not to mention the fact that many traffic cops are being upgraded nowadays with special radar that can determine your speed even when you're driving on the opposite end of the road. It may take him a few seconds to turn around, but don't think he won't if you're not being reckless. xD

 

[Rayne]

I really like this topic.

It's nice you bring this up because I was just wondering about the definition of 'legal speed limit.'

Right now, I must admit I'm quite a fast paced driver and do go over the signed limits more than occasionally, which means that there are points you made that I'll agree with you on, and some others that I've more or less come to a general consensus on based mostly on my driving history [including people whom I've grown up driving with that also have influenced how I drive today.] And to note, some of the responses will diverge and are not directly aimed at you Shuko, but for any general reader on the forum.

Anyway, I'm getting sick and tired of people who think that anyone who drives the speed limit is a threat to humanity for not speeding. I drive, at most, five mph over the legal limit. That means I'm speeding, and breaking the law.

No need to judge yourself harshly there. 5 mph is not bad, and arguably a 'buffer zone' of sorts when driving at higher speeds. Sudden drops in grade or turns and shifts can accelerate you that extra 5mph over the speed limit than you wanted, and that's ok, you can always tune that back down.

As a future Civil engineer with particular intrest in traffic mangement, I need to be honest with you. Highways and Freeways are meant for fast traffic. They are designed particularly so traffic will flow in a managble and safe way, but are to allow the maximum possible speeds for quick acess from point A to point B. Now please bear in mind, I say maximum with the most allowable safe speeds in mind which is usually in accordance with the speed limit. Banks, turns and slopes are designed at several mph higher than what the posted limit may be.

For example a sign may say to take a turn ramp at 35mph, but for the added safety factor, it will be designed for vehicles taking the ramp at 45mph, but 35mph is the safest possible speed a person can drive the ramp without a risk at losing control of zie vehicle. The same applies for roadways and highways, albeit not that much higher. And yes, for older roads it is absolutely best to adhere to the posted speed limit and at times even under as the road conditions don't allow for any safe speed.

So yes, it is possible to go that extra 5 without even realizing it since the roads are so well adept to your vehicle, its easy to loose pace sometimes.

[But please, I really sense you're a good driver Shuko, but for those who misinterpret, don't misread: STAY WITH THE SPEED LIMIT. Its given for a reason. It is an allowable standard, posted so you know the safest speed at which to drive at and the safest speed at which to allow vehicle/pedestrian traffic to pass by as well. Too high, and you WILL lose control of your vehicle, injure bystanders or you will face risk of getting caught by law enforcement, all of which are serious risks.]

If you break the law, chances are you're taking a risk. But nowadays, if you obey the law, you take a risk of the same magnitude, or worse. :/ It's because so many people speed all the time that "slow drivers" like me are becoming a hazard on the roads. It's all relative. I may be doing the legal limit, but when people around me are whizzing by at ten or fifteen mph faster than I am, I'm a danger to them and myself. That's just not right.

I must make another point, and it may not be as sound, but I feel that today's vehicles are just to darn powerful. I love my older Camry model since I feel I have more control over it, the pedal feels just right and I can attain the speeds I want comfortably. I forcibly know I'm going over when I give it that extra push. I can't say the same with new cars. My uncle's Camry is a 2005 model and while driving on the highway, I've reached 75 a bit to fast to my liking forcing me to pull back on the throttle, making it rather uncomfortable; its like being on my tippy-toes the whole time.

The same goes with these other cars I test drive, or drive for work. They just accelerate way to fast with the slightest tap of the pedal. The sudden rush of speeders may not be coming from neglect, but purely out of naivety. Our aging baby boomer population is swapping their old cars for newer models day in and day out and the driving styles with which they were comfortable with in their old cars will carry over to these souped up 8 cylinders that perform twice as fast than they ever realized.

They won't drop those speeds unless really forced, so they'll deal with it and keep it if they have to.

Thats a problem that can only be curved through enforcing speed limit laws as well as teaching good driving standards to the new generation of drivers.

And at the same time, I've noted that when I used to do ten or more mph higher than the limit all the way to work, I never got there more than five or six minutes faster than I do now. It's not worth a few extra minutes to risk getting a ticket and being late for work. :/

Well, what you say is true, its an unfortunate reality that, there are people to meet and places to be. My job has a time dependency, and when I go, I need to make it there on time. Yes, most days I only have to worry about making it to one site on time and I can avert the need to rush by setting aside enough time. Other times, I may not be so fortunate and I need to cut across town just to be on time for a second site. Yes I will speed. But, no I won't try to be excessive with it, nor will I try to cut around people unnecessarily [like a certain coworker I know ugh.] Point is, there are times people have good reason to speed, its just out of their control. And yes it still places them at risk for A: getting caught. B: ending up in an accident.

Though, this type of driving is inevitable and that's not something thats going to go away unless we have some sort of time machine... but distorting time for one's own gain is not something that plays well in the physics of our dimension [nor any other for that matter heh heh].

I drive in the right-hand lane, since by common opinion, I'm a slow driver. However, that doesn't stop people from riding my tail and trying to force me to go faster by inching up on me. You know what I do if you do that? I slow down. I take my foot off the gas and slow down, because the closer you are to me, the shorter your stopping distance. If I have to stop suddenly, I don't want you rear-ending me, so I'm going to decrease my speed to make up for your tiny distance. You don't like it, you can pass me. Either way I get you off my danger zone.

That's great. Defensive driving is a great way to ward off those nasty offenders. I must admit, as fast as I go sometimes, I really won't push past 10mph yet some people have to keep going faster. I hold my ground, and they can go past me if they want, but I understand the extra risks they face if they go speeding way beyond the allowable range.

I think that people who speed frequently should have their licenses removed after so many violations. If they can do it for drunken driving, they should do it for irresponsible driving too, lol.

They do, it's just selective enforcement. State Troopers will do their traffic stops and speed enforcement and their presence alone will tame the local traffic to posted speeds. For areas where officers are stretched thin, managing entire highways is impossible. Establishing their presence on a highway can have induce a psychological effect on the speeder, they don't want to get caught so they'll drop their speed. [most speeders will drop to 5 mph over the speed limit]

Locally though this is obviously not the case and I'll explain a bit more later.

Why should they have a specified penalty for breaking the law? I mean, the law clearly states that the speed limit posted on those signs is a state MANDATED maximum limit, and breaching that limit constitutes breaking the law, and can be criminally pursued by law officers.

It makes no distinction between 20mph over or 1mph over.

Over the limit is over the limit. It's up to the officer to determine how dangerous your driving is, given the driving conditions and the speed you were doing.

In some jurisdictions, it does. I was traveling with my uncle through Indiana when he got pulled over, [they pulled us over as we were about the cross the border.] On the officer's ticket it had a checklist of a number of speeds over the limit and their respective fines. And yes, there was a 1-5 mph option, but his ticket was given at 11-15mph I think about $100 more than if we had been caught doing around 5 mph over. He pretty much just checked a few things here and there and we were back on our way. Really, I think it was all standard procedure to him.

However, recklessness: big no-no. Yes speeding is quite reckless, but if you've ever been a passenger to the people I've driven with, they make roller-coasters seem street legal. Think 4 lane change in less than 300 ft at 65 mph or banking off ramps at near 80. That's just a small taste of aggressiveness I've been a witness too.

And I'm sorry, but using the excuse of "I was going with the flow of traffic" only works if traffic has stopped due to a funeral procession or something.

I really don't like to get caught up in so called 'flows' as I don't like being so close to another car at such high speeds. I try to space myself as far from other cars as possible, but there are times I do get caught among these flows. So, guilty.

The police officer can't pull everyone over, and that's exactly what he'll tell you when he pulls YOU over.

You may be surprised to hear this, but it really is. The State Patrols have really come down hard on speeders, locally, and are not afraid to throw themselves out into traffic and pull a line of speeders off to the side. I really mean it when I say they throw themselves onto the streets just to get you to pull over for speeding.

No one in their right mind would run down a state trooper.

I can say I've seen it happen to a number of people, my mother and even myself. It's certainly something no one's expecting.

My case was pretty poor, yet I came out pretty clean.

Again, in this one area of ours traffic is being enforced a bit more heavily and its become quite noticeable. But I digress. One afternoon during spring, I was driving along with a friend of mine from out of town, showing him the area. I was taking him along this more scenic back road with a speed limit of 35. I admit I was going about 40ish which ironically enough is a speed much lower than compared to when I'd normally go on a weekend. I dropped my speed since I wanted my friend to soak in the sights.

Further down the road I began approaching a school zone, with the 25mph sign and flashing lights. Since I'd been accustomed to going down this road before comfortably around 45+ [as appears most other people do to (I know what you're thinking Shuko, shame on me XP)] But I decided to take it down a bit. I went from about 40 to 35 then wha?! Officer stands in the road and points me to the shoulder. He caught me at 34. Yeah sounds innocent enough, but he pulled me over anyway because I was in a school zone where the limit is 25. Yup those signs are there for a reason.

I admitted I was careless and was speeding, but my friend defended me after we were on our way saying the cop was too close to the sign to pull the speed down to 25 that fast without warning, that and it was downhill.

At the traffic stop, he just asked a few questions wondering if I'd been stopped before to which I answered truthfully, no. I worked with him, talked calmly and responded in a respectful manner. [Never EVER talk back to a cop, it'll get you nowhere fast]. He let me off with a warning, but before I went on I heard his radio go this one's going 55 I look in my review mirror, there are at least 2 other vehicles being pulled over with an additional third at that moment. I'd like to think that my '34' was not so serious that I needn't be handled with, but its still no excuse and I do make sure to slow down in school zones properly from now on. And so ends my one and only tale of my almost ticket. [it could have been worse than that, I didn't have my registration at the time, but thankfully he let me off for that too whew]
[/personal experience]

And despite what people might think, being the leader or the end of the pack isn't the only "dangerous" place for you to be in when there's a cop around. A lot of times, cops travel in pairs. One will be guaging your speed, and then farther down the road, the second one will be gearing up to pull you over. When the first one relays your speed and car model to the other one, you're as good as ticketed.

I think I may have had this happen to me twice, but nothing came of it. In both cases I've had troopers riding my tail actually freaking me out a bit since they were really close. I'm sure they were doing it just to gauge my speed. All I did was shift lanes and they just speed on by. But like I said, nothing came of it even though I was 10 mph over the posted speed limit.




Now for my final piece and perhaps rant: defining the 'legal speed limit.' From my experience legal speed limit is only legal if it is explicitly stated. A highway near my house has a stated limit of 55. Below that there is a warning given "55 means 55." I take this as "legal speed limit." I will NOT go above 55 here.

Roads and highways where signs say 'enforced by radar' I also deem to have 'legal speed limits.' So I try to maintain my speed, but I'll feel safe if I go 5mph over.

However when I'm on a highway, I feel comfortable with treating the posted speed as a grey speed limit, a suggested limit to adhere to. Traveling between Baltimore and DC, the limit on I-95 is 65 mph, a pretty fast speed, but I think the maximum safe speed is around 75 but the most I'll see myself go is about 70.

For local roads, like your neighborhood streets, those limits are necessary to follow. FOLLOW THEM. People are out and about and roads are a bit tighter which means you, your car and the people around you are ALWAYS at risk even at manageable speeds. Take care in your surroundings and environment as they are always subject to change. Sometimes I feel some backroad speeds are posted too high. School Zones are particularly enforced as they have specific speeds different than the normal road allows - at certain times of the day.



So to clarify, a 'legal speed limit' is a speed limit that is strictly enforced and clearly signed that the limit must be followed so as not to put other persons at risk.

A 'speed limit' can be a suitable speed, while not a maximum, certainly not a minimum speed, but more so a maximum possible speed at which a person can safely manage zie vehicle to travel to any given point.

 

[Mozz]

That's way too long of a post ^_^;

 

[paperfairy]

tl;dr in the best sense of the phrase.

Yes, speeders make me upset. 1MPH over is still a criminal offense. : /

 

[Mozz]

I fucking love to speed. Suck it.

 

[Barb]

"Suck it" is exactly what the officer will tell you as he writes your ticket, Mozz.

 

[Shuko]

You know, this whole thread was an experiment in human psychology. If you go out to ten people on the street and ask each one the same question: "What makes you angry the most?" A large number of them will say "slow drivers" or some other kind of traffic problem that they are peeved at. It's actually very interesting to see the kinds of responses this thread gets in different places.

For my own opinion, you have it already. I've been completely truthful about my own honest opinions. I will agree that going five or even ten over the posted limit in many areas will probably not get you a ticket. But the fact remains that if a policeman did pull you over for it, he'd have you dead to rights. The posted limit is the legal maximum. It said so in that contract you signed when you got your driving license, lol. If you didn't read it, it's your own fault. It also states it very clearly in your state's posted statutes, laws, and bylaws. There's really no disputing it, unless you want to count common opinion, which I'll agree can be a very powerful force.

Let me be blunt. I don't hate speeders. Speeders are just people who have semi-subconscious delusions about getting somewhere faster than someone who goes the legal limit. You can't hate people for deluding themselves; that's just silly. But I'm likely to be less forgiving if someone hits me due to speeding than I am if they simply didn't see me.

 

[Joey]

I like speeding too. It's LA, everyone speeds. I don't care if you drive slower then the rest, as long as you're not a real hazard and stay in the right lanes. I'll be in the left lane speeding =D

As for tickets, I fully understand that I can get tickets no matter how bad I'm speeding. I've gotten a ticket for speeding, and I didn't dispute it and paid it nicely because I knew I was speeding. I'm not mad at the officer who gave it to me, he was actually a very nice guy. Let me get the ticket off my record with traffic school and everything. But that doesn't stop me from speeding, only speeding in Monteray because that place is apparently a speed trap and no one told me. It's a calculated risk.

This thread reminds me of what I was taught in Drivers School, which is that there are two rules of driving. DMV rules and Real World rules. You need to know the DMV rules to get your licence, but they really don't apply when you're actually driving. I find that to be very true around here.

 

[Mozz]

"Suck it" is exactly what the officer will tell you as he writes your ticket, Mozz.

If he can get past my PBA card, charm, following all the rules of being pulled over, my knowledge of NJ major highway stop points, adjustments for weather and positional adjustments with regards to other drivers, I'll gladly pay it. arty:

 

[Venom]

This may seem like a stupid question but are we talking about street or freeway driving? Because if we are taking about the street the speed limit signs only say speed limit and a number but if we are talking about the freeways the signs say maximum speed limit then a number. so you have to know your breaking the law on freeways if you go faster than the sign says to.

 

[Barb]

What's a PBA card? Is it anything like the "get out of jail fee" cards from Monopoly?

 

[the gadfly]

I think PBA means Professional Bowling Association. Who knew Mozz bowled?

 

[Mozz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrolmen's_Benevolent_Association

 

[Shuko]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrolmen's_Benevolent_Association

You're a Policeman and you speed? o_0 Way to set an example, man...

 

[Mozz]

No, "man", you get a card for supporting them (like 20 bucks or whatever). Flashing the card when you get pulled over sometimes helps.

 

[Shuko]

No, "man", you get a card for supporting them (like 20 bucks or whatever). Flashing the card when you get pulled over sometimes helps.

Oh, I see. :x The page you linked to was about a Policemen's labor union. I just assumed that since you had one of their union cards, you must be a police officer.

And I am no man. :3

 

[Ket Makura]

Some of the roads in my state have both a maximum and minimum speed posted.