The War.

[StellarWind]

It's rarely spoken of, but it's known that the regions seem to have armies and we know that wars have been fought before (Lt. Surge and his various lackeys that served under him in 'the war', as it's being referred to quite ominously.)

Which brings me to an interesting thought - Who was it that fought who? Was it an uprising between two different cities, a rebellion of a few cities against the mainstream government? Kanto VS another region?

Also, what was the role of PokeMon in that war? Were they used as weapons or as 'support units' for the human soldiers?

I'd appreciate theories. ^^;

 

[FabuVinny]

The opening of movie 8 contains a big battle with two vast armies of Pokémon, (who are wearing either red or green armour.) And that was hundreds of years ago, so the one Lt. Surge was in would have been more recent.

I'm tempted to say this was against Team Rocket... but somehow I don't think so. The trouble is that we don't know enough about government to make much of a guess about how foreign policy is handled.

 

[ImJessieTR]

The only problem with big wars, instead of minor skirmishes, is that eventually you get legendaries involved, since wars tend to destroy the environment. Nobody would really want that, no matter how mad they are.

However, it is possible that people once made war using pokemon as warriors, and then after that ended badly enough the concept of Pokemon battles came about, just as the Olympics and tournaments in the Middle Ages were sporty alternatives to war.

 

[Fig]

Pokémon were used in war at least as recently as 50 Years BA (Before Ash), though. More likely, as recently as 20-25 BA, if not 10-15 BA.

We know this because Surge used his pokémon "in the war". He can't have been sent to war much younger than 15 or 16, and there's no way in hell he's older than 65 by the time Ash meets him (and probably much younger - I'd give him in his late twenties or thirties, early forties top). So the war was at the very most 50 years before Ash met him, and more likely between 10 and 25 years before that.

Since we know pokémon were trained "by trainers" for competitive battling as far back as the age of sails (Orange Island ghost ship), it is quite obvious that pokémon training did not "replace" pokémon warfare. More likely, they existed concurently.

As far as wars go, I can think of another ancient war that's been mentioned in the anime : the war in which the fiancé of the Maiden (of Maiden's Peak) died.

 

[Artruis]

I always thought they where just referring to the Vietnam war, due to Surge's outfit and his tough guy attitude like the dudes on Platoon. But that was in the B/R/Y era, when they still showed "real" animals, and referred to America, (Surge was I think called the Lightning American in early games).

I think that in one of the games Surge says he survived the war by using his pokemon to paralyze his enemies, whether they where pokemon or human I'm not sure, and whether or not he actually fought, again, I'm unsure.

I would be willing to assume that the war would be similiar to the war described in this fanfic: http://users.bigpond.net.au/acey/pokemon.htm
. Except that instead of sword and steel, there would be guns, (obviously they do exist as is shown by the frequency of TR's use of them). In that fanfic, the war is fought where the armies are made up of trainers, whose pokemon fight, but who also fight themselves, pokemon attack both humans and pokemon, and vice-versa.

That said, there is no canon to actually support that theory, it just seemed to make sense to me.

As far as who actually fought it makes sense to me to be TR. We haven't really been shown any rivalries between regions, and we haven't been introduced to any other countries, and in most cases you go to war against a country that you are close to, (geographically) if there was such a country I think it is something that would be mentioned in passing during the years of the show.

Another reason for it being TR, is that it would make sense why people seem to be surprised when they see them, plus it would explain why people in the early games, (IIRC) talked about TR where back from a 10 year hiatus, they got beaten in the war, and have been slowly rebuilding, only now are they powerful enough to become more aggresive.

Just my thoughts

Liam

 

[ImJessieTR]

but if TR lost, they sure have a good presence in both Kanto and Johto

 

[StellarWind]

Ahh, good ol' PokeMon MASTER. I loved a few of the concepts they had there - and the story itself WAS well written. Full of unbearable amounts of godmodia, though. xD

I don't recall anything in the games about people mentioning Team Rocket being back from a ten-year hiatus... o_o

Hmm, regarding the 'Vietnam War' theory... Actually, FRLG also states that Lt. Surge is, in fact, American. Apparantly, it also states that there was a rumor that he was a pilot for a while "Back home in America", using the electricity from his PokeMon to power up his airplane. Hn...

Well, it would sort of make sense. Kanto, Johto and Hoenn all seem to be designed after certain parts of Japan. So, I'd assume that a mirror universe version of America also exists - a different continent on the globe - and that would make it plausible for said 'war' to have actually been a PokeMon world mirror of the Vietnam war...

Oh my dog. I can imagine battling in THOSE jungles. Complete with the 15-foot Victreebells described in the PokeDex... xD

Hn. I suppose that would mean there wasn't a World War II in the PokeMon World and so that no one threw nuclear bombs at a yet unknown region that hasn't been exposed because of the radiation mutants that inhabit it... Because that would have made Lt. Surge very unwelcome in Kanto. ;P

 

[The Big Al]

Hn. I suppose that would mean there wasn't a World War II in the PokeMon World and so that no one threw nuclear bombs at a yet unknown region that hasn't been exposed because of the radiation mutants that inhabit it... Because that would have made Lt. Surge very unwelcome in Kanto. ;P

I remember reading a fanfic about a region in the pokemon world that was subjects to a nuclear war and mutant pokemon roamed the barren landscape. However, I think it was based more on Russia.

As for WW II: We don't know whether or not he was liked. For all we know he beat the living daylights out of trainers because locals vandelized his gym and he took out his frustration on those brave/stupid enough to enter. Also, he might have been part of the Korean patrol and they were looking for an Electric type gym leader.

 

[Zeta]

TR - You don't go to war against gangs. I don't remember the US Army being called out to war against the Godfather or Al Capone . . .

 

[Fig]

The fact that they refer to it as "the war" pretty constantly seems to hint at a major conflict.

Compare with out real world : people don't talk about "the war" for most post-1950 conflicts (exception : if they're already talking about vietnam, then "the war" is understood to be vietnam). People specify which war they are talking about.

"In the war", or "during the war", on the other hand, are rarely used. When they are, at least in my experience, they refer to the two world wars almost exclusively.

Thus leading me to conclude that the "Surge war", whatever it was, was a major conflict by the scales of the pokémon world.

(granted, IRL, "the war" may well have been just laziness on the developers part and/or unwillingness to invent a conflict or use a real one. But if that's the case, then it's up to us to decide what the war was ANYWAY).

 

[FabuVinny]

Lt. Surge may have been allowed to become Gym Leader for diplomatic reasons. (To be an official Gym Leader, you have to be approved by the Pokémon League.)

If there was a particularly bad war then the current attitude where people are almost too keen to not disturb nature makes sense. I'm talking more for the older generation as Ash's generation seem to decide to like Pokémon on their own.

 

[Fig]

Post-nukes japan does come to mind when you talk about major wars and that attitude.

It could well be a pokéworld equivalent of world war II that we're discussing here. Though I would theorize that the "Hiroshima" of such a war may have involved the immense, destructive power of one or more legendary rather than nukes.

(And, needless to say, the "pokéworld" equivalent of Nagasaki does not seem to have been the target of such power, since we've actually seen it in the game without any reference to such destruction)

 

[StellarWind]

What do you reckon the PokeMon World equivalent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki IS, anyway? o_o

Unless if it's in a region that hasn't been uncovered yet (which I doubt), I don't think anyone canonically mentions anything related to destroyed cities...

 

[Fig]

True.

A new region is quite possible, seeing as the IRL Hiroshima, if I remember correctly, correspond would be in an area wwest of Johto.

The IRL Nagasaki, on the other hand, correspond to one of the towns of Hoenn.

 

[Kater]

I've recently been in a debate about the Government in Pokemon and i believe there were wars over government. It is shown that Orre and the Orange Islands both have a similar Government and i suspect that they may have had the same one at one point (according to my theory since they both have mayors). Also, there may have been a war between Kanto and Johto since they are so close together. Johto might have originally been part of Kanto and fought for its independence (though i still do believe they have the same government though two countries). Hoenn has no signs that it ever had any war besides the War between Kyogre and Groudon. They seem to be away from the rest of the world. Though it is said that the Battle Fronteir is on Kanto ground. This suggests that Kanto took over Hoenn.

 

[BenRG]

What war? What army?

Given that Surge is generally accepted to be an American by birth, I assume that he was a soldier in the US military. This has some intriguing implications.

Firstly, as Surge is said to have used his Pokémon in the fighting, that indicates that Pokémon are not isolated to the Kanto/Johto/Houen/Orange landmass area but are a global phenomenon. This adds weight to the suggestion that they were all genetically engineered weapons, workers and pets that escaped and went feral, possibly as a result of the same war. Some people might keep their old service pistol. Surge kept his Raichu. :disgust:

The art style of animé makes it difficult to guess the ages of characters. I would say that Surge is younger than Oak but older than Delia. Possibly he is a contemporary of Giovanni and Koga.

There is no particular reason why the war Surge fought in should have any analogue in our world. :idea: Assuming that Pokémon is set in the near future (mid- to late-21st Century), then it could be anything up to and including a Third World War that included the use of GM animals and AI robots (the steel-types) as weapons and special soldiers. After the end of the war, which apparently left civilisation in tatters in this part of the world, the Pokémon were either freed in thanks for their assistance or escaped in the confusion of the collapse of the government.

 

[Kater]

your relating this way too majorly to our World. We dont know if their even is a North America in that world. We do know of South America and that is it. The regions are South America, Hoenn, Kanto, Johto, Orange Islands.

 

[Minty Electronica]

I'd hate to go slightly off-topic, but I'm afraid your theory of Pokemon being created to serve as weapons in a contemporary war, while interesting, has a flaw in it, BenRG: the existence of Pokemopolis and the mention of ancient people in the Pokedex entries (e.g. Registeel's).

Back on topic, I've personally always thought the war was either the Pokemon world's equivalent of the Vietnam War or its equivalent of something a bit more recent, such as the Gulf War. I really don't have much evidence to support the latter idea, other than I've always thought that, judging by his appearance, he was in his thirties or younger. (The equivalent of the Vietnam War would then probably be ruled out unless we use the equivalent to mean "similar war, different time period.")

Of course, he may be older. As Ben said, it's difficult to guess characters' ages.

Also, in response to Kater's comment about continents:

1. If South America exists, then it can only be concluded that the other continents exist.
2. Real-world places do exist. In dub canon, at least, what with a mention of Las Vegas in the first season. (I'm not sure if it's present in the original, however. Same thing with Hollywood several episodes later.)

 

[The Big Al]

your relating this way too majorly to our World. We dont know if their even is a North America in that world. We do know of South America and that is it. The regions are South America, Hoenn, Kanto, Johto, Orange Islands.

Logic dictates that if there is a South America, there must be a North America. Though we have a South Africa but no North Africa but that's a Country.

 

[evkl]

The region of Egypt, Algeria, Lybia, Tunisia, etc. is typically referred to as "North Africa."