Theorymonning: Changes to Game Mechanics and The Metagame

[Night22Wing]

Okay, to compliment the Theorymonning: What if this Pokemon had...? Thread, I thought I would start a similar thread of:

"What would happen to the Metagame if the mechanics of moves, status conditions, weather and hazards changed?"


To put it simply, quite a lot of the Metagame in Gen 5 is rather centralised around particular mechanics, such as entry hazards and the weather. This thread intends to discuss the potential effects that changes to these mechanics will have on the metagame; will certain changes break the metagame, balance it out, or even give otherwise forgotten Pokemon a chance to shine and show their worth?

Akin to the restrictions of the other thread, try to keep away from giving Pokemon new attacks and abilities, themselves, but focus on the mechanics of moves they already have.



I guess I'll start. There are two words that strike fear in the hearts of Pokemon such as Moltres and Volcarona... STEALTH ROCKS!
Definitely one of the more defining features of the Gen 4 and Gen 5 Metagame.

So I put out this question... Instead SR doing 12.5% of MAXIMUM HP damage upon entry, what if SR did 12.5% of a Pokemon's CURRENT HP (Factoring in Type Effectiveness).

So, for example: You have a Charizard at ~40% Health. You switch it in with SR on the Field, and it takes ~20% damage, rather than KOing it with 50% damage.


Would this affect the popularity of SR, at all? And will it increase the usage of certain Pokemon that are otherwise blighted by those dastardly Rocks?

(NB: The new SR mechanic will still inflict at least 1HP damage... Sorry, Shedinja )

 

[SharKing]

I really do feel that a nerf on Stealth Rock is kinda necessary. Sure, Volcy, Charizard, and others would still suffer, especially at full health, but at least they'd have a better shot with what you proposed.

By the way, I definitely like the idea behind this thread.

 

[GliscorMan]

Hm, if SR is changed like that, I would definitely use Pokemon like Eviolite Scyther a lot more. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a Pokemon 4x weak with Regenerator would get the most benefit, and, if there was such a Pokemon, would gain a boost in usage.

Also, if this changed, I'd expect a lot more usage in Spikes and such, as well as Rapid Spinner usage to decline, because the SR is less likely to kill you now, thought it will still cripple some Pokemon.

 

[Night22Wing]

Hm, if SR is changed like that, I would definitely use Pokemon like Eviolite Scyther a lot more. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that a Pokemon 4x weak with Regenerator would get the most benefit, and, if there was such a Pokemon, would gain a boost in usage.

Also, if this changed, I'd expect a lot more usage in Spikes and such, as well as Rapid Spinner usage to decline, because the SR is less likely to kill you now, thought it will still cripple some Pokemon.

I'm not so sure Spikes usage would increase too much, as the primary targets of Stealth Rocks in terms of x4 damage are Flying-types (bar Volcarona). So they'll be immune to Spikes anway.

That being said, 1 layer of Spikes is now guaranteed to be more effective than Stealth Rocks against more land-bound Pokemon, so its merits do increase.

Agreed, though, that general Spinner usage would probably drop a bit, maybe even see some spinners drop a tier.


Also, Ho-Oh has Regenerator, so it might see a bit more use.


_______

As a side discussion, I was thinking:

No Guard allows 100% accuracy to moves executed by AND aimed towards a Pokemon with the ability.

What if Serene Grace affected both Pokemon, too? Would we see a decrease in use of Pokemon such as Jirachi and Togekiss, at all? Or does the fact their movesets are tailored towards hax mean it's worth the increased risk of status?

(Also, lol Jirachi vs. Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire. 100% Burn Chance )

 

[Thundagere]

To be fair, Jirachi vs Sacred Fire isn't going to last very long, lol.
I feel that we'd still see Togekiss and Jirachi. I mean, once they get going on a Pokémon they outspeed, it can get pretty hard to stop.

 

[winstein]

I wonder if the type chart could be part of the suggestions as well. If so, I would propose Grass to lose the Ice weakness first.

When Grass-types lose the Ice weakness, they will fare better against Water-types that would normally carry Ice coverage. It would still be useful for Dragon-types, but now Grass-types could put up a much better fight. Water-types would be forced to carry a Fire attack to specifically deal with Grass-types, or perhaps Signal Beam if they have it. It would overall be better for Grass-types.


Another thing I wonder is the addition of Dragon resistances, so as for what current types would resist Dragon-types, I am thinking Ice- and Poison-types.

The main reason I suggested both types are so that Dragon doesn't get perfect coverage with Dragon-Fight, disregarding Steel/Ghost. For the Ice-types, they will become a lot better at countering Dragon-types, especially Mamoswine and Cloyster. It will also make them more wary with using Outrage precisely because more types will resist them. Poison-types don't necessarily hit them back well, but they could do some nasty stuff, such as using Toxic on them or just hitting them with their strongest attacks.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Joshawott]

Personally, I do think the type chart needs to be changed. Obviously, the introduction of Fairy-types will mix things up a bit and it is good to see Dragon getting another weakness, but really, the Water-type needs nerfing the most. My suggestion would be making Poison-type super-effective against Water, which gives Water another weakness, but also gives Poison another advantage that it really needs. Another possibility would be making Ice immune to water, as y'know...the water would just freeze and become ice. I do agree with @winstein; that Grass needs balancing as well - I would suggest removing the Ice-type weakness.

Weather really dominates the VGC format and many teams tend to run a Pokemon like Tyranitar or Abomasnow just to disrupt an opponent's weather. Personally, I'd like Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream and Snow Warning nerfed so that the weather is only up for 5 turns after the Pokémon has been sent out, as if you had just used Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Sandstorm or Hail.

 

[Angad]

I think if Ice Types resisted Water Type Attacks, it would prevent from most Ice Types being jokes offensively.

 

[Night22Wing]

As much as I enjoy the Type chart debates, I think there are a couple of other threads on the subject.

But @Joshawott does make an interesting suggestion on weather abilities. Would the ability reset if the pokemon returned and came back out before the 5 turns were over, or would the 5 turns be 'fixed'?

How about this suggestion: what if the weather would only last for 5 turns after the pokemon has left the field, but would last indefinitely whilst the pokemon is active (disregarding disruptions).

It makes sense that a summoner of rain, for example, would keep rain up whilst it is around, but would slowly lose its power of rain when it leaves.



I can only see this working in favour of rain (and sandstorm), again, however, as Ninetales and Abomasnow would have to keep returning to the field to keep the weather up, and they're weak to Stealth Rocks.

 

[GliscorMan]

I really think that the whole weather thing is fine, however I do have a suggestion regarding it. What if Cloud Nine/Airlock completely removed the weather, and didn't just prevent the effects. It'd be sort of like a reverse weather-inducer. If that mechanic was changed, I think the majority of the problems would be solved, as Cloud Nine is already available for a good number of Pokemon.

 

[Night22Wing]

I really think that the whole weather thing is fine, however I do have a suggestion regarding it. What if Cloud Nine/Airlock completely removed the weather, and didn't just prevent the effects. It'd be sort of like a reverse weather-inducer. If that mechanic was changed, I think the majority of the problems would be solved, as Cloud Nine is already available for a good number of Pokemon.

I think that's a great idea; I think Altaria will get a bit of use if that were the case. It's a shame that nothing with U-Turn/Volt Switch can have Cloud Nine; it'd make an interesting weather stopping pivot.


Similarly, do you think Overcoat should cancel the effects of weather-altered attacks aimed towards that Pokemon. For example, I have a Reuniclus with Overcoat against a Ninetales. Ninetales is about to use Solarbeam, but, despite the sun being out, it's becomes a 2-turn attack again, because it was aimed towards Reuniclus.

 

[Angad]

What if we went beyond abilities and had Defog, Mist and Haze all nullify the active weather?

 

[Winterdaze]

It would definitely help, Lickilicky might see some niche usage as a cleric that can nullify weather, it's just too bad Wish is illegal with Cloud Nine. On the other hand Hail as a playstyle would be devastated, as it commonly sees use as "anti-weather" on otherwise weatherless teams, which Cloud Nine can accomplish with far less collateral damage.

 

[GliscorMan]

What if we went beyond abilities and had Defog, Mist and Haze all nullify the active weather?

Haze would become rather overpowered, and Mist would seem to have the opposite effect. However, Defog would make perfect sense, and would probably elevate itself in usage if it were to remove active weather.

@Night22Wing; Overcoat is an interesting thought, and would seriously mess with the opponent's strategy. It'd be like Simple, but with weather. The power boosts from Rain/Sun, the 100% acc from Hail or Rain on Blizzard, Thunder or Hurricane... Maybe even the miss chance for Fog?

Speaking of Fog, what would happen if a new 'mon was introduced with a Fog-starting ability?

 

[Night22Wing]

What if we went beyond abilities and had Defog, Mist and Haze all nullify the active weather?

Haze would be THE go to move if it got that effect... Though Defog is definitely a possibility that I approve of!

It would definitely help, Lickilicky might see some niche usage as a cleric that can nullify weather, it's just too bad Wish is illegal with Cloud Nine. On the other hand Hail as a playstyle would be devastated, as it commonly sees use as "anti-weather" on otherwise weatherless teams, which Cloud Nine can accomplish with far less collateral damage.

Lickilicky might see quite a bit of OU usage because of Cloud nine. It's more than bulky enough to take a hit, and makes for some decent support.

I guess the question is: Is sacrificing a spot for Lickilicky worth the destruction of weather?
In my opinion, yes. If something like Camerupt got Cloud Nine, instead, I don't think his mediocre presence would be worth the sacrifice... But Lickilicky should be useful enough to, say, fill in a role that defensive Celebi or similar could fill (though, not as well).

Haze would become rather overpowered, and Mist would seem to have the opposite effect. However, Defog would make perfect sense, and would probably elevate itself in usage if it were to remove active weather.

@Night22Wing; Overcoat is an interesting thought, and would seriously mess with the opponent's strategy. It'd be like Simple, but with weather. The power boosts from Rain/Sun, the 100% acc from Hail or Rain on Blizzard, Thunder or Hurricane... Maybe even the miss chance for Fog?

Speaking of Fog, what would happen if a new 'mon was introduced with a Fog-starting ability?

If Fog got an ability, I would go into the corning and begin crying.
Though the concept of Focus Blast hitting only 49% of the time does amuse me, because I never use the attack!

Related question: What TYPE would Fog go under? From Castform, I get the "Normal" vibe... But could it fit any other typing?


I could imagine Overcoat becoming the ability of choice for quite a few Pokemon with those added effects.
Forretress makes some sense, as Rocks are usually on the field, so Sturdy is broken anyway... Though there's nothing really offensive (bar Reuniclus, who has two other great abilities, and Cloyster, who should stick to Shell Smashing and Skill Linking) to make the best of opponents missing Thunders, or weakened Flamethrowers.

 

[Angad]

I forgot about Haze's secondary effect, so I think that Defog and maybe Mist would be fair.

 

[Winterdaze]

What if Torment worked on the turn it was used, instead of the turn after? That would shift the list of viable users from two to pretty much every Prankster Pokemon with the move, and a host of other fast Pokemon that can pull off a quick Torment before the enemy strikes. With the aid of Protect or Substitute, any one of these Pokemon would be capable of shutting down choice Pokemon completely.

 

[winstein]

What if Torment worked on the turn it was used, instead of the turn after? That would shift the list of viable users from two to pretty much every Prankster Pokemon with the move, and a host of other fast Pokemon that can pull off a quick Torment before the enemy strikes. With the aid of Protect or Substitute, any one of these Pokemon would be capable of shutting down choice Pokemon completely.

The most immediate ones that benefit from this move are definitely Prankster Pokemon. Murkrow and Sableye will be able to recover on the turn the opponent cannot attack, while Liepard (and Murkrow too) could use a Substitute to block something if the opponent carries only one attack. Even speedy Pokemon are great too, with Deoxys-Speed being the best one.

Still, unlike Taunt, it doesn't benefit most of its users because some of them are quite frail, while others benefit more from other moves, including Taunt itself.

Thanks for reading.

 

[winstein]

With the new type chart, Steel doesn't resist Ghost and Dark anymore. If the same changes apply in Generation 5, what kind of effect would there be?

For one, Steel-types cannot switch into Ghost or Dark attacks safely, especially if it hits the weaker defensive side. For example, Skarmory won't like taking Shadow Ball from Gengar because that move would 2HKO it. Also, Jirachi, Metagross and Bronzong got extra weaknesses, which means they won't have a "no weakness" clause by going in Rain and have a Balloon/Levitate. In fact, they are vulnerable to Pursuit, so if they don't have some move that support, they will be in trouble.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Night22Wing]

With the new type chart, Steel doesn't resist Ghost and Dark anymore. If the same changes apply in Generation 5, what kind of effect would there be?

For one, Steel-types cannot switch into Ghost or Dark attacks safely, especially if it hits the weaker defensive side. For example, Skarmory won't like taking Shadow Ball from Gengar because that move would 2HKO it. Also, Jirachi, Metagross and Bronzong got extra weaknesses, which means they won't have a "no weakness" clause by going in Rain and have a Balloon/Levitate. In fact, they are vulnerable to Pursuit, so if they don't have some move that support, they will be in trouble.

Thanks for reading.

Very much agreed.

Dark-types would get a lovely big increase with those additions (especially given no Fairies in 5th Gen)...

Hydreigon would probably get more use, as its Dark STAB is no longer resisted by Steels, though Flamethrower/Fire Blast is still there for SE damage.

Besides Gengar, there wouldn't be much of a boost for Ghost in OU, as Ghost-type offense is sparse, considering the only other Ghost-type, Jellicent, doesn't use Shadow Ball as frequently as it uses Scald/Surf (I see Ice Beam more commonly than Shadow Ball).

Defensively, Steel-types will get bitten for a chunk more from Tyranitar's Crunch, so the likes of Scizor will be more afraid to switch in at lower health.
Saying that, though, more defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Forrtress won't mind the extra damage TOO much, provided Fire Blast isn't present on Tyranitar.

On the Special Side, nothing much outside of Hydreigon (possibly Gengar) uses Dark Pulse, though in UU, Zoroark will be able to surprise hit a couple more things for decent damage, notably Bronzong.

Summary

The Steel/Psychic-types: Bronzong, Jirachi and Metagross are probably the biggest losers in all this, but I don't think it's quite enough for them to go down a tier, because the use of Dark-type moves are restricted to specific Pokemon, and Ghost-type moves are used sparsely in OU, albeit more frequently with UU offensive threats, such as Mismagius and Chandelure.

I don't see an increase in the use of Dark or Ghost-type moves on general movesets as a result of this change, though the use of some Pokemon who receive STAB may increase, such as Hydreigon.