Timeline evidence?

[Pokelad]

This was brought up on the talk page of the History of the Pokemon World page, and I'd like to ask about it.

What solid evidence is there that Generations 1 and 3 take place at the same time, and 2 and 4 take place at the same time? As said on the talk page, BW have shown that Platinum is the canon version for the Sinnoh games, where the Red Gyrados report didn't happen. Steven is also still the champion in HGSS and only makes vague comments about similar challengers, not to the actual events of the Hoenn games. Remember in Emerald he actually decided to leave and travel, not intending on returning for a while. I find it hard to believe that Steven would come back after his long journey to become the Hoenn champion again, only to leave for Kanto. It's unlikely his appearance in HGSS is after RSE. Also in HGSS, Cynthia doesn't mention the events of DPPt at all, so whether she's champion or not in Generation 2 is unknown and could very easily take place before Generation 4. The hiker in Hearthrome city mentions Elm's report on eggs, despite the fact that FRLG showed that pokemon eggs were around before gen 2. That simply means the hiker remembers the report from a few years ago and that Elm was the one who did the most research on the subject, as seen in HGSS. Jasmine's conversation with Erika in HGSS shows plainly that she didn't go to Sinnoh until after HGSS. And on the subject of Jasmine, before somebody brings up Rusty the Steelix, the idea of her having two pokemon with the same nickname isn't really that far-fetched. And if Jasmine traded Rusty in HGSS, then how could it be the same Rusty that appeared in contests with her in DPPt?

It seems the main reason for the 'Gen 1 and Gen 3 take place at the same time' and 'Gen 2 and Gen 4 take place at the same time' is, as said on the mentioned talk page, trading without time travel. As said, this an extrememly flimsy justification. XD and Colloseum take place five years apart, yet both can trade with the Generation 3 games. The upcoming Black 2 and White 2 games will also likely be able to trade with the original Black and White.

Just thought I'd put this out there.

 

[Mitchman]

Its concrete enough to say they are indeed around each other, but the order is unknown. Personally FRLG>E>HGSS>Pt is the best we could possibly achieve, with the time between em unknown, outside of the 3 years between HGSS and FRLG. The real problem lies in the lack of a sturdier fact sheet for the events of RSE, unless its well within reason to believe its within the canon they created with Pt,BW/B2W2,and the remake duos.

 

[Galladeon]

We haven't seen any evidence that would place Emerald anywhere in that timeline that isn't "lack of time travel". I would like to point out however the unlikelihood of Pokemon going back in time to the Pal Park, so that would probably put it before PtHGSS.
Also, who's to say that the whole deal with the Ruby and Sapphire to trade with RSE isn't to power some sort of time travel device?

 

[Jenni]

I've never worried much about the timeline of the pokemon world. most of the games are pretty well independant of each other. r/b/g/y and g/s/c (and the remakes of course) specify a 3-year gap. Otherwise, though, the games with new regions don't seem to give much indication about when they take place relative to the others. From what I can tell it doesn't matter too much either - the hoenn games, for example, don't have much if anything to do with the Kanto/Johto games, as far as the plot if concerned, so whether is happens before or after and how far before or after, really doesn't seem to make a difference. The games have somewhat weak ties to each other in the remakes (which I assume retcon the originals plot lines) to show that they are within a few years of each other at least, as hoenn characters show without looking significantly older or younger in HG and SS, but I've not noticed anything that really shows which came first or how far apart they are, etc.

Besides that, continuity in the pokemon games has always been a bit shaky at best - Gen 2 pokemon show up in kanto 3 years after the events of the gen 1 games, and they become widespread and commonplace in that brief time, for example, but in the gen1 games (and main story of the remakes) there are literally none of them anywhere in kanto.
The new regions being introduced since gen3 helps get around this (new places = new creatures) but you have the issue of new evolutions for old creatures (eg. ambipom, tangrowth) and new moves etc.

 

[Pokelad]

We haven't seen any evidence that would place Emerald anywhere in that timeline that isn't "lack of time travel". I would like to point out however the unlikelihood of Pokemon going back in time to the Pal Park, so that would probably put it before PtHGSS.
Also, who's to say that the whole deal with the Ruby and Sapphire to trade with RSE isn't to power some sort of time travel device?

Possible, recalling the Time Device that featured in the original GSC. We know Bill, who created said time device, helped Celio with the machine we saw in FRLG. For all we know it could be another incarnation of the time device, remembering that it also enabled trades with Colloseum and XD. Going by that logic, we don't actually know how the Pal Parks really work. For all we know they could be using Bill's time machine.

 

[Glitchipedia]

If time travel devices were in use, I think it would be outright stated—there's no reason for it not to be.

Regarding Colosseum and XD, I think it makes more logical sense for them both to take place before Gens I and III. Then the postgame sandbox can be treated as years passing, thus eliminating the paradox. I don't know why the Bulbapedia article has them placed where they are.

 

[Pokelad]

If time travel devices were in use, I think it would be outright stated—there's no reason for it not to be.

Considering XD and Colloseum take place years apart and both can trade with the Generation 3 games, there has to be some sort of time travel going on.

This reminds me. Don't Gen III pokemon transferred to Gen V have 'after a long travel through time' on their status screen?

 

[Galladeon]

Yes, though that could be due to the approximately 10 years since third gen assuming the whole theory we're trying to get evidence of here.

 

[Pokelad]

Possibly. Does it say anywhere exactly how long after Platinum that Black and White take place, though?

 

[Xenidal]

Possibly. Does it say anywhere exactly how long after Platinum that Black and White take place, though?

It can't be that long because Cynthia is in Black and White and it's implied to not be that long.

 

[Galladeon]

The Rocket Grunt that stole the part from the Kanto Power Plant has had enough time to get married and have a several year old son, and Caitlin has noticeably aged in between her Gen IV appearances and Black and White. Caitlin - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

 

[voicerocker]

I honestly don't think there is a set definite timeline in Pokemon. I think each and every game takes place in its own universe, which is why in games like Black and White, N catches Reshiram in one and Zekrom in the other. Same characters, but I honestly don't think Game Freak has established a set timeline that can be followed. I think that is made evident because as someone mentioned earlier, both Orre region games can trade back in forth with the 3rd gen games with no issues at all.

Of course though, Gen 2 obviously took place after Gen 1, but Gen 3 and the Orre games make it too complicated to map anything out perfectly.

 

[coolcatkim22]

From what I've seen, most if not all games take place with in a different universe and can't have the same timeline because of that. As you can see, all versions are almost exactly like one or more other versions and it would be impossible for them to be in the same universe with them being so much alike yet different. And even if you argue that a version in the generations later on exist in the same universe as one of the versions of an earlier generation it would be nearly impossible for you to link one version to another due to plot holes.

 

[Saiga]

The Red Gyarados report still happened in Platinum. Though they took it off the TV at the start, you can meet people later who talk about it.

 

[The Outrage]

Its concrete enough to say they are indeed around each other, but the order is unknown. Personally FRLG>E>HGSS>Pt is the best we could possibly achieve, with the time between em unknown, outside of the 3 years between HGSS and FRLG. The real problem lies in the lack of a sturdier fact sheet for the events of RSE, unless its well within reason to believe its within the canon they created with Pt,BW/B2W2,and the remake duos.

I'd like to have said Steven referenced the RSE trainers, but the links Bulbapedia put on his quotes to May and Brendan's articles seem too big of a leap:

"Hi! My name is Steven. The Champion from the Hoenn region. Have we met...before? That's not possible. All the Trainers I have battled seem to have the same look, anyway. Especially the ones who gave me tough battles..."

That's much more ambiguous than what Cynthia says in BW, who makes a direct reference to the past player character and events in Platinum:

"What an uncanny resemblance... It's surprising to meet another Trainer who has intense eyes like that Pokémon Trainer. What's your name? ... OK. I'll remember that! <Player>, nice to meet you. I'm Cynthia. I'm a Pokémon Trainer, too, like you. I have an insatiable curiosity for researching Pokémon myths."
[...]
That was beyond my expectation! What an exceptional battle! You certainly bear a resemblance to that Trainer who faced Giratina... Oh, pardon me. I was just thinking out loud.

All Steven seems to indicate is that he sucks at telling people apart. Trainers that give him tough battles can range from anyone of the Elite 4 members he had to beat, and Wallace. If I recall, Team Plasma made reference to Team Galactic and Team Rocket, but not Aqua and Magma. I feel that they may be trying to keep things ambiguous in the event they want to make remakes take place in the current generation's time :/

 

[Silktree]

As said on the talk page, BW have shown that Platinum is the canon version for the Sinnoh games, where the Red Gyrados report didn't happen.

As noted by Saiga, it did happen in Platinum. Not only did the cameraman in Lake Valor mention it, but it could also be randomly watched on TV. There were similar TV reports about the same science expedition team looking for Lugia and Ho-Oh, as well. That team wouldn't have had any reason to look for those extremely rare Pokémon unless they had been recently spotted in Johto.

Remember in Emerald he actually decided to leave and travel, not intending on returning for a while. I find it hard to believe that Steven would come back after his long journey to become the Hoenn champion again, only to leave for Kanto. It's unlikely his appearance in HGSS is after RSE.

Steven never lost his title as the Hoenn Champion; he was still referenced as such in Emerald (by a Dragon Tamer in Meteor Falls). The most sensible interpretation is that around the events of Emerald, Steven asked Wallace to replace him as the active Champion in Ever Grande City. Steven had traveled through various regions for a few years (it was also implied that he owned the villa in the Sinnoh games), until he arrived in Kanto to investigate Latios and Latias' sudden appearance; meeting Ethan/Lyra inspired him to resume his activities as the Hoenn Champion.

Also in HGSS, Cynthia doesn't mention the events of DPPt at all, so whether she's champion or not in Generation 2 is unknown and could very easily take place before Generation 4.

The Hiker in the Sinjoh Ruins referred to Cynthia as the Sinnoh Champion (in the second trip after she had already left). While Cynthia didn't directly reference the events of DPPt, she did so loosely: "All my study of ruins and Pokémon mythology in Sinnoh may have been to bring you up on this stage here today..." More importantly, it can be logically inferred that the Sinjoh Ruins event took place after the events of the Sinnoh games, for the simple reason that at the end of Platinum Cynthia only speculated about Arceus' existence: "Do you know of the ancient Plates they find all over Sinnoh? One of them had this engraved on it. 'Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One.' I think this quote, too, points to the presence of another Pokémon. A Pokémon even more powerful than Dialga or Palkia. Does that sound plausible to you?"

Jasmine's conversation with Erika in HGSS shows plainly that she didn't go to Sinnoh until after HGSS.

That's wrong: The conversation shows that she went to Sinnoh during HGSS.

Erika: Hi, Jasmine. I heard Whitney from Goldenrod Gym said you were too plain and should look more fancy. Is that true?
Jasmine: Yes... I’m thinking maybe I should participate in this Contest in Sinnoh to try and be more vibrant...
Erika: How did it go?
Jasmine: I couldn’t bring myself to go to the Contest.
Erika: Oh, I see... Then why don’t you try putting on something especially gorgeous?
Jasmine: Ah, yes! Maybe I can bring myself to enter the Contest!

As you can see, there is a sudden time jump after Jasmine says that she'd like to go to Sinnoh; the conversation should be interpreted as having two parts with a certain time gap. This seems a little odd, but it is the only way to interpret the conversation; it is also possible that the translators got Jasmine's first line wrong and what she actually said in Japanese was "I was thinking..." Either way, it is clear that the gap in question was the period of time when Jasmine met Dawn/Lucas in Sunyshore, as at that point in DPPt she had yet to participate in Super Contests. After talking to Erika (again or for the first time), she gathered enough courage to finally enter a Super Contest in Hearthome City, which she did in DPPt after the player had been given the National Pokédex.

And on the subject of Jasmine, before somebody brings up Rusty the Steelix, the idea of her having two pokemon with the same nickname isn't really that far-fetched.

It is far-fetched because there is no good reason why Game Freak would have used the same nickname for different Steelix. It is very awkward to assume that they were trying to mislead us. After all, they didn't have to use any nickname in either case.

And if Jasmine traded Rusty in HGSS, then how could it be the same Rusty that appeared in contests with her in DPPt?

Obviously, she traded Rusty after she was done with her Super Contest run in Sinnoh. I'd put the order of Jasmine's appearances as follows: Olivine (Lighthouse event and Gym battle) -> Sunyshore (first visit to Sinnoh) -> Celadon (conversation with Erika about going back to Sinnoh) -> Hearthome (first Super Contest) -> Olivine (trade)

The most plausible theory is that DPPt and HGSS are contemporary; not every event in Johto took place before every event in Sinnoh, nor vice-versa. Since the Johto games have the longest story due to Kanto, it is easy to see how this can work.

It seems the main reason for the 'Gen 1 and Gen 3 take place at the same time' and 'Gen 2 and Gen 4 take place at the same time' is, as said on the mentioned talk page, trading without time travel.

The theory about Johto and Sinnoh is well supported by in-game references and doesn't hinge on the trading factor at all. The only way to cast doubt on the theory is by making a combination of very awkward and forced assumptions.

As said, this an extrememly flimsy justification. XD and Colloseum take place five years apart, yet both can trade with the Generation 3 games. The upcoming Black 2 and White 2 games will also likely be able to trade with the original Black and White.

The Orre games are irrelevant because Game Freak had no part in their development, and there have been no references to Orre in any of the main series games. In contrast, Game Freak do seem to care about the continuity of the main series, as evidenced by the number of references to past regions in every game. B2W2 will no doubt be compatible with Black and White, but they could easily incorporate a Time Capsule again that would be clearly labeled as such. Let's wait until the release date before we fit those games into our arguments.

Possible, recalling the Time Device that featured in the original GSC. We know Bill, who created said time device, helped Celio with the machine we saw in FRLG. For all we know it could be another incarnation of the time device, remembering that it also enabled trades with Colloseum and XD.

Except that no mentioned time travel, but several characters described the Network Machine as enabling normal communication with people from Hoenn. No one mentioned Orre, either, and in turn the GameCube games didn't explain what made it possible to communicate with other regions.

"Network Machine Link Level 1...Link established with the KANTO region."
"I’m modifying the Network Machine right now. I’m changing it so it can handle trades over long distances."
"Network Machine Link Level 2...Link established with the KANTO and HOENN regions."
"{RED}, I did it! I’ve managed to link up with TRAINERS in the HOENN region! Finally, the Network Machine is fully operational! {RED}, I owe it all to you! Thanks to you, my dream came true…"
"I traded POKéMON with my boyfriend far away! Everyone’s saying that we can thank you and CELIO. So, thank you!"

All Steven seems to indicate is that he sucks at telling people apart. Trainers that give him tough battles can range from anyone of the Elite 4 members he had to beat, and Wallace. If I recall, Team Plasma made reference to Team Galactic and Team Rocket, but not Aqua and Magma. I feel that they may be trying to keep things ambiguous in the event they want to make remakes take place in the current generation's time :/

But they don't need to keep Hoenn's timeline ambiguous to fit hypothetical remakes into a new time period. Suppose that it was never their intention for the Hoenn games to be contemporary with FRLG. Why would they have made so many references to the Network Machine handling trades over long distances instead of simply bringing back the Time Capsule?

Besides, the way the Weather trio were incorporated into HGSS heavily suggests that the Hoenn story predates the Johto one. We know that Groudon and Kyogre had been dormant in Hoenn for hundreds of years, and likewise that the Red and Blue Orbs had been protected in Mt. Pyre to make sure that the titans did not awake. We also know that the Red and Blue Orbs were brought to Johto from Hoenn: "The thing is... A friend of mine from Hoenn came over to give this to me." The only plausible interpretation is that the orbs were given to Mr. Pokémon after the second Hoenn crisis had already been averted.

 

[The Outrage]

@Silktree;
I was just noting the really bad reference made by Steven, I honestly thought he'd give more concrete evidence.

But I'm glad to see you and I are on the same page about DPPt and HgSs being mostly contemporary. Though, I wonder what grabbed people's attention more--Team Rocket's take over of Goldenrod or the Distortion World opening? In-game at least, the distortion world phenomena seems to have been noticed by some, but that it wasn't that earth shattering since the effects didn't become wide-spread.

 

[Silktree]

I was just noting the really bad reference made by Steven, I honestly thought he'd give more concrete evidence.

I think that the comparison you made between Steven and Cynthia's lines pinpoints the differences in their personalities more than anything else. Steven introduced himself as the Hoenn Champion, whereas Cynthia described herself as a Pokémon Trainer (even though other characters confirmed she was still the Sinnoh Champion). Steven said that all the trainers he'd battled seemed to have the same look in their eyes, while Cynthia was positively surprised by Hilbert/Hilda's resemblance to Lucas/Dawn. Regardless of whether or not Steven had met Brendan/May (I certainly think he had), he didn't seem to respect Ethan/Lyra as much as Cynthia did Hilbert/Hilda.

Though, I wonder what grabbed people's attention more--Team Rocket's take over of Goldenrod or the Distortion World opening? In-game at least, the distortion world phenomena seems to have been noticed by some, but that it wasn't that earth shattering since the effects didn't become wide-spread.

Which NPCs took note of the Spear Pillar events? I only remember references by Looker, Cynthia and the remnants of Team Galactic.

 

[Faye Scarlet]

I never agreed with the "DPPt and GSC/HGSS" happening at the same time bit either. :/ I always liked thinking that each game goes in the order they came out in. Like RBY happened, then GSC happened, then RSE, and then Pt, and then BW. It's very simple.

 

[Galladeon]

The problem with the Rusty Jasmine uses in Contests and the Rusty Jasmine trades us being the same is that they don't have the same moveset and I'm fairly sure the one we got doesn't have the necessary condition to participate in Master Rank Super Contests effectively. Maybe someone could trade him to Sinnoh to check that?