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Tobias's Pokémon Choice

Drakon

Drakon

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Everyone knows about this infamous Sinnoh trainer who beat Ash using a Darkrai and Latios. And how he's generally hated for screwing Ash out of a win at the Lily of the Valley Championships.

But I was just wondering, if he had used normal pokémon and not Legendaries, would people have hated him as much?

For me, it seems like some of the hate comes from him using Legendaries...which pretty much no other trainer does.
 
I can't speak for everyone else, but I have seen a lot of people be annoyed that he lost to someone using only one Legendary and one Mythical Pokemon.
 
Maybe a special episode explaining Tobias would make more sense.

But in a way, Sinnoh Ash was pretty strong and him losing to legendary Pokemon was a better ending imo.
If it wasn't legendaries, it would've been psuedo ones most likely.

Also, don't forget that Ash is the only trainer to defeat his Darkrai in the entire region. He beat Latios as well.
 
People can get angry about Tobias and his team, people can say all they want about him, people can make him out as hellspawn incarnate, but at least this guy wanted to actually win the league conference. *coughunlikethatshitnuggetalaincough*

Really, the fact that Ash outright defeated his undefeated Darkrai and still pulled his presumed backup Latios to a draw later on made it perhaps one of his greatest losses to date. I believe people would have hated Tobias even more if Ash wasn't walking away with those remarkable bragging rights.
 
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I think it mainly did come down to the fact Tobias used Legendary Pokemon. Even at the time the episode aired, people generally thought it was a cheap way to stop Ash from winning the League. If he just used regular Pokemon or even psuedo Pokemon, I don't think that the backlash would have been that bad. Although, losing to regular Pokemon right after defeating Paul would have also felt anticlimactic, so that would have annoyed people too.

Honestly, I never quite understood the infamous hate Tobias got. At least Ash went down fighting, defeated two of his Legendary Pokemon and was the only person who defeated Darkrai. He was clearly the honorary runner up of the Sinnoh League with that in mind, so that made the defeat much less annoying or frustrating. If Ash had to lose, which he did because they only had a couple of episodes left before the end of the series anyway, then at least he went out in a blaze of glory.
 
Yeah, most of the hatred toward Tobias mainly stems from the fact that he used a team with at least two Legendaries Pokémon, which are depicted as almost unbeatable juggernauts in the show. So, in a sense, it was an extremely convenient and cheap (albeit cool) way to finish Ash’s Sinnoh quest and get him ready to go to Unova. It doesn’t help the fact that he got literally no buildup or backstory, aside of some mentions about his Darkrai having beaten all his challengers all by itself, so that makes him look even more like a Diabolus Ex Machina.

However, at the end of the day, every character who defeated Ash at the League and prevented him from getting the trophy is somewhat hated, to an extent or another. If Tobias used only “regular” Pokémon, then he probably would have been judged in a way similar to Harrison, so mainly disliked out of spite rather than disliking the character himself.
 
I was really annoyed by two reasons:

1. I have not played the games in a decade but the legendary pokemon in the games are NOT the same as the legendary pokemon in the anime. In the anime, legendary pokemon are potrayed as being way way stronger than even pseudo legandaries like Dragonite or Garchomp.

Furthermore, they are so rare, most good trainers would never even see one in the anime, nevermind have the chance to captire one. To give Tobias not one but two is criminal.

2. Tobias was not necessarily the best trainer in the league based on strategy, skill etc. His battle style was just to overpower guys with Darkrai and Tobias. Both Ash and Paul were far more skilled as trainers, yet neither stood any chance against him.

3. Ash's pokemon selection was poor. Yes, Pikachu, Heracross and Sceptile are three of his best pokemon and were worthy choices. But Torkoal was arguably Ash;s weakest fire type at that time. I am a big fan of Swellow but i don't think it had the strength and the attack moves to be used so deep in the league.

And as adorable as Gible is, an unevolved pokemon lacking experience should not be used when you are in the final four. Its good to use the likes of Gible and Torkoal early in the tournament but not that late.

Ash had so many good pokemon. Charizard, Infernape, Donphan, Glaile, Snorlax, Gliscor, etc should have been chosen.

The sad part is that even if Ash had assembled his best team, he still would have lost.

I would have been perfectly fine with Tobias beating Ash if Tobias had a pseudo pokemon, some other strong fully evolved pokemon, and was a superior strategist than him. But Tobias, from what we saw, did not have anywhere near Sinnoh Ash's cleverness.

It was especially disappointing because starting from the Hoenn League championships, continuing into Battle Frontier and through all of Sinnoh, Ash was at his battling peak.

Since then, the only time Ash has come close to being as good was in Kalos.
 
hhhhdmt said:
I was really annoyed by two reasons:


2. Tobias was not necessarily the best trainer in the league based on strategy, skill etc. His battle style was just to overpower guys with Darkrai and Tobias. Both Ash and Paul were far more skilled as trainers, yet neither stood any chance against him.
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Idk, Dark Void-Dream Eater was a pretty neat trick on Tobias' side.
 
My biggest gripe about Tobias is him using two Legendaries. Very, very few trainers have Legendaries in the anime canon and those that do usually have only one and have earned the respect of the Legendary in some way or another. Giving a character of the day two Legendaries makes no sense from a storytelling perspective.

Don't get me wrong, Ash did very well for the battle (taking out Darkrai and fighting Latios to a standstill) but it's akin to tossing a random person off the street into an MMA championship and ends proceeding to win a few matches. They did quite well but it doesn't outweigh the completely unfair match up.

Had Tobias used very powerful standard pokémon and won due to proving himself a better strategist than Ash, I would have been fine with Ash losing in this case.
 
The ideal team for Tobias to have imo would be...

Darkrai
Serperior
Magikarp
Magikarp
Magikarp
Magikarp

Atleast it would be some brand new Pokemon Ash loses the league to instead of a legendary that has no business being in Tobias' team.
Also points for irony for Ash drawing with Serperior and losing to Snivy and winning against Serperior at the end of Unova league again.
 
Tobias got them like out if thin air, and we have no idea if he's even a good Trainer. He won by raw power alone. The anime talks about strategy and stuff, but Tobias showed that raw power is what matters the most.
Ash beating Darkrai and tying with Latios was a very good achievement, but the show trashed on that a few episodes later.
 
It was extremely cheap and insulting to have Ash lose to a trainer designed for that one purpose. The other trainers Ash lost to had at least a team consisting of diverse pokemon and it shows that the production team put effort to show that they wanted Ash lose to quality trainers that were designed with effort. And yes, as much as I hate it, I do include Cameron because despite having showcased the worst league battle, they still cared enough about him to give him 5 different pokemon.

Thrusting in a character with two legendaries and having him stomp around everyone with a Darkrai was just complete nonsense. Even if Ash did beat Darkrai and tied with Latios, it seemed like the production team didn't want to be bothered giving Tobias a full team of six and it felt as if they were saying: "We can't be bothered drawing another six-on-six; our arms are killing us after all that drawing and writing of the battle against Paul"
 
If I had to guess, I think it was possible Tobias was going to have an Entei also on his team (or in place of Latios, based off the opening at the time).

I'm glad he lost to Tobias though, because if he beat his legendaries only to lose in the finals to normal Pokemon, then it'd leave an anticlimactic taste in my mouth *coughalainshouldhavelostanywaysbecausehehadnoreasontochallengethekalosleaguecough*
 
PkmnTrainerV said:
The ideal team for Tobias to have imo would be...

Darkrai
Serperior
Magikarp
Magikarp
Magikarp
Magikarp

Atleast it would be some brand new Pokemon Ash loses the league to instead of a legendary that has no business being in Tobias' team.
Also points for irony for Ash drawing with Serperior and losing to Snivy and winning against Serperior at the end of Unova league again.
Click to expand...

Not even Servine was officially revealed at the time the episode aired. Braviary, Excadrill and Reuniclus would have been better choices.
 
Sometimes I wonder if people will look back on the Kalos League defeat with the same kind of anger that people still have regarding Tobias years after it happened. He's still arguably the most infamous way Ash lost a League and people are still upset about it.
 
Hidden Mew said:
Sometimes I wonder if people will look back on the Kalos League defeat with the same kind of anger that people still have regarding Tobias years after it happened. He's still arguably the most infamous way Ash lost a League and people are still upset about it.
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The outburst from losing to Alain was more of a result of a combination of bad advertisement, potential executive meddling, and the fandom's hopes being crushed after Ash's prowess during the XY(Z) series. Alain, while overpowered with overrated Mega-Charizard glorification and a last minute team of 6 created out of nowhere, is way better as the production team still put in a great effort designing the battle.

Tobias though... he was simply there. Nothing inspiring, just enough work put into the battle to make it look un-slaughter-y. Not sure about others, but Tobias was just an insulting character overall imo. They just sent Ash into a battle that everyone would know that he'd lose and expected people to be entertained with a one-sided match.
 
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