TR Executives - Old or New characters?

[Maxim Posthumus]

Should have started this thread long ago...

Bulbapedia states that Apollo and Athena are "two of the four Team Rocket Executives introduced in Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver" and that they were merely "based" on the original Executives from GSC.

But I think that it's not true. They are, in fact the same characters. Just think about them. They have exactly same roles. Same Pokemon. Same spoken text. Same everything. The only difference is the design (the biggest thing about them is recolor and Athena's hair, note that the uniforms are practically the same as in GSC, just recolored) and the names. But back in GSC all Executives were simply unnamed. So, I'd rather say that TR Executives's names were simply revealed in HGSS.

They got stronger redesigns compared to other characters, simply because they were nothing more than nameless character-less Trainers back in GSC.

Considering the exactly same roles, same Pokemon, very similar designs, it's pretty much beyond any doubt to me that they're simply enhanced Generation IV versions of GSC Executives (Athena = Female one, Apollo = The one with Houndour) with revealed names and more character and shall be treated as same characters.

I'm refraining (and I ask you to do it too) from any Kris/Kotone analogies here. Aside from being a player's avatar, the Player Characters have no identity. Also, Kris's and Kotone's roles are arguably different considering the fact that Kris never appeared as an NPC. So, the situation between Kris/Kotone and TR Executives is very different as the Executives, being NPCs, have obvious roles and identities.

Then, there are Lance and Lambda.

The thing is... that they ALSO aren't new characters at all (though it's more debatable).

They all tree appeared in Radio Tower, remember? In GSC there were also THREE Male Rocket Executive Trainers, all appearing in Radio Tower. There's no way that they could be same character, as they would have to be bilocal. Not to mention that they use completely different Pokemon. It's obvious that there were three different male Executives back in GSC. There was just one problem about them. They had no names and same sprite. So most fans didn't even pay attention to that. Again, Lambda and Lance have same role (and more notably, same teams) as those Executives back in GSC. The only change is that Lance appeared in Slowpoke Well. Originally, that was just a Grunt.

So, in other words, NONE of four Rocket Executives is a completely new character to HGSS. The change is, that Lance and Lambda got brand-new unique designs and bigger role. As for Apollo, he's directly adapted from the final Executive who used a Houndour. Athena is a direct adaptation of the Female Executive, who was only one (appearing twice). However, having appeared in the games in the same circumstances, they aren't "Inter-Media Counterparts" or anything like that. They're same people.

This is one of those epic and awesome things about HGSS, as it unveils one of GSC's secrets, which most people didn't even notice.
Having four Executives wasn't a retcon, it was actually an EXPLANATION. So, every time you think about HGSS Executives, they weren't "created", they were "EXPLAINED". Even though Lance and Lambda's designs were created for scratch, they are still the same old Executives from GSC.

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[Silktree]

This is all very obvious, to the point where I have to raise my eyebrows at anyone who hasn't realized it. There are (sadly) no new Rocket Executives in HGSS.

On another note, I fail to see how Apollo and Athena's circumstances are that different from Kris/Kotone's (the NPC role argument is farily moot, as it also applies to Gold/Hibiki), but I'll it slide.

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

This is all very obvious, to the point where I have to raise my eyebrows at anyone who hasn't realized it. There are (sadly) no new Rocket Executives in HGSS.

Why sadly? I think it's pretty cool, as Lance and Lambda are both old and new, being old characters with new identities (and hence, they're not boring). I think it's better than having old Executives axed for some new ones. Without them, the mystery wouldn't be solved. So, I'm not complaining about GF's choice. It was the best possible choice, IMHO.

On another note, I fail to see how Apollo and Athena's circumstances are that different from Kris/Kotone's (the NPC role argument is farily moot, as it also applies to Gold/Hibiki), but I'll it slide.

You see, it's about the fact that Hibiki and Kris never met, while Hibiki and Kotone did. Considering that Hibiki is the canon character, he met Kotone, making her a different role.

NPC are really easier to deem same or different characters.

 

[$aturn¥oshi]

I'm going to side with the fact that they are the same characters just with names now.

 

[Silktree]

Why sadly? I think it's pretty cool, as Lance and Lambda are both old and new, being old characters with new identities (and hence, they're not boring).

Has the dialogue for these characters changed at all? The unnamed Executives weren't devoid of personality, either.

I have no qualms about these characters being retained and finally having distinct identities. But as far as the storyline is concerned, all four Executives share the same goal of bringing Giovanni back, which is why not even Apollo views himself as a proper leader. In contrast, the Rocket scientists care about something else: using radio waves to induce an outbreak of Pokémon evolution nationwide. That is what prompted the Radio Tower Director to ask for Hibiki/Kotone's help, but the Executives instead chose to attempt to contact Giovanni and made no mention of their other agenda.

I would have liked to see a new Executive who shares both the scientists' goal and the rival's contempt for Giovanni. You'll have a hard time convincing me that Lance and Lambda's "cool" appearances make up for the fact that the plot is still so lacking.

You see, it's about the fact that Hibiki and Kris never met, while Hibiki and Kotone did. Considering that Hibiki is the canon character, he met Kotone, making her a different role.

Hibiki is not the canon character as per the canon itself. That is entirely your own interpretation.

 

[Flare Blitz]

I'm pretty sure that they're the same characters given names and distinguishable designs or simply new characters based off of the old ones which would would apply to everyone else in the game.

Considering that Hibiki is the canon character

Since when was it confirmed that Hibiki was the canon character? :/

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

Has the dialogue for these characters changed at all?

I think it hasn't changed much. But it's hard to tell, as I don't pay attention to Japanese version that much.

The unnamed Executives weren't devoid of personality, either.

Of course. But seriously underused.

I would have liked to see a new Executive who shares both the scientists' goal and the rival's contempt for Giovanni. You'll have a hard time convincing me that Lance and Lambda's "cool" appearances make up for the fact that the plot is still so lacking.

Of course, that would be better story-wise. But remake-wise, I really like the actual Executives more.

A member like the one you described would be cool in the third version. But again, what would be done with existing Execs? One of them would have to be axed. Five Executives are too much.

Hibiki is not the canon character as per the canon itself. That is entirely your own interpretation.

Of course, it's just my guess, based only on the fact that he appeared in both GSC and HGSS, unlike the girls (even if they're one and the same, Gold has still more appearances, having debuted in GS).

 

[Silktree]

I forgot to mention that it should also go without saying that Apollo and Athena are the two Executives/Admins that were in charge of the Rocket HQ on Five Island.

A member like the one you described would be cool in the third version. But again, what would be done with existing Execs? One of them would have to be axed. Five Executives are too much.

I don't necessarily agree with this, considering that Platinum added Pluto to an existing ensemble of three Commanders and one Leader. Howver, it really makes no difference to me what title this hypothetical new character would be given; I'd even be fine with one of the existing scientists being given a unique appearance and an extended role, preferably in the Radio Tower incident and afterwards (since unlike the Executives, that character wouldn't be dependent on Giovanni's return).

I've said numerous times before that I'd like to see this design (courtesy of Sugimori himself) be incorporated into the games. Of course, were that character to appear in the game universe, she would probably have very little in common with her Pokémon Special counterpart (for obvious reasons due to the differences in plot and style). She might start out as a Rocket scientist, but by the end of the Radio Tower event I would have her become independent of Team Rocket, only having allied with them for their technology. Inducing an evolution outbreak would merely be one of several objectives that would influence the continued plot.

I'd like it if the rival admired her for secretly loathing Team Rocket and sabotaging their plan to bring Giovanni back. But at some point, I would have the rival disapprove of her methods, for not even he is that cruel (as proven towards the end of the GSCHGSS story). I also see potential for interesting interactions between the Kimono Girls and the new character.

 

[Nando]

How is Lance an "old character with a new design?" There wasn't even an Executive in Slowpoke Well in the first place. I'm pretty sure that the Executive Lambda replaced in the Mahogany HQ didn't dress up as Giovanni and babble about being a master of disguise either.

But then I look at the source of this griping and wonder why...

simply new characters based off of the old ones which would would apply to everyone else in the game.

This. These are new characters based on the old ones.

EDIT: Okay, I stewed on it a little more. I agree that Apollo is a pretty lazy attempt at making a new character, but I still don't think he is exactly the same person as the last Executive from before.

However, I do like the theory being bandied about regarding a "Platinum" for HGSS that makes all of this have more meat to it.

 

[Flare Blitz]

How is Lance an "old character with a new design?" There wasn't even an Executive in Slowpoke Well in the first place. I'm pretty sure that the Executive Lambda replaced in the Mahogany HQ didn't dress up as Giovanni and babble about being a master of disguise either.

There are a lot of characters in HGSS that have new dialouge and different personalities. For example, Silver's more tsundere and strips the player which he doesn't do in GSC. Eusine is simply obsessed with Suicune, in Crystal, he is more of a researcher and knows about the history and myths surrounding the Johto legends.

This. These are new characters based on the old ones.

Well, I said that it would also apply to everyone else in the game since to some people HGSS seems more like an AU rather than a remake.

 

[Nando]

Well, I said that it would also apply to everyone else in the game since to some people HGSS seems more like an AU rather than a remake.

Hmm, I could see that.

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

How is Lance an "old character with a new design?" There wasn't even an Executive in Slowpoke Well in the first place.

Read my post more closely. Having Lance in Slowpoke Well IS a retcon. But the only one here. It was done in order not to have a one-appearance Executive (well, there's Apollo but he's different). However, in Radio Tower there IS an Executive who appears in Lance's place and trains same Pokemon as him. Coincidence?

I'm pretty sure that the Executive Lambda replaced in the Mahogany HQ didn't dress up as Giovanni and babble about being a master of disguise either.

Another change. But Lambda dressing as Giovanni had only one purpose - to show his as Rocket's "master of disguise". That's what he exactly was in GSC - he dressed for Radio Tower Director, after all.

I don't see this as a big change that would make Lambda a new character. This was an introduction for him, showing his personality better. That's what ALL Executives lacked in GSC.

This. These are new characters based on the old ones.

Then, HGSS Elm is a new character based on GSC Elm? Same for Falkner, Bugsy, Whitney etc.?

I agree that Apollo is a pretty lazy attempt at making a new character, but I still don't think he is exactly the same person as the last Executive from before.

Because he looks a bit different and has a name?

It's undeniable that there were three Male Executives in GSC (one sprite for them all was confusing, I know). The final one, who trained a Houndour and disbanded Team Rocket after being defeated is OBVIOUSLY Apollo. Same Pokemon, same role, nearly the same design (though recolored, if he wasn't recolored, we wouldn't be even DISCUSSING him, as it would be obviously obvious). What more do you need to recognize someone as an old character? You expect "I'm the same character" engraved on his head?

It's obvious that they wouldn't handle Executives as the same nameless drones with same sprites that they were 10 years ago. It's not easy to make a memorable character out of a brainless drone. I wish that they didn't design-rape them so much, though. If they used their PokeSpecial names and personalities (without that Masked Kids thing, of course) it would be million times better. But GF doesn't pay attention to PokeSpe at all. We have to be glad about what they did to them in HGSS.

 

[Ethan]

They are old. If Bulbapedia says they are then they are.

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

They are old. If Bulbapedia says they are then they are.

*facepalm*

Of course, because Bulbapedia is the official source developed by gods themselves... The word of Bulbapedia is the word of GOD.

So sad...

And actually, Bulbapedia doesn't say that they're old. It says that they're merely new characters based on old ones. And it doesn't say anything like that about Lance and Lambda. So maybe they are new, if Bulbapedia's word is law?

And actually, I started this thread mainly for Bulbapedia. Because I'm going to add GSC Executives' teams to their respective articles, as I believe (and have strong prooves) that they're same characters. But before I do that, I want to discuss the matter in order to be approved.

 

[Ethan]

Good to see you agreeing for once /sarcasm

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

Good to see you agreeing for once /sarcasm

*headdesk* *facepalm* *wallskull*

Of course. Because it's all about agreeing. No matter how absurd your opinion is, I must agree. Because a person who doesn't agree with you is a serious douchebag.

You're too miserable to be even discussing with you.

If you expect ANYONE to agree with your points (your "point" is nothing more than religious following of Bulbapedia), then please, let your brain get checked.

 

[Ethan]

Yes. How come you realised this deadly truth of life?

 

[Force Fire]

Temper Maxim, Temper

 

[Ethan]

That ^

 

[Maxim Posthumus]

Temper Maxim, Temper

It's not about temper. I didn't even yell at him. I'm rather crying. The utter bullshit that he says made me really depressed.

And not only me. Any experienced, reasonable fan would say the same.

I'm not "losing temper". I simply can't praise him for saying such n00bish crap.

That ^

Grow up, kid.