Two Killed in Church Shooting

[Ben Cousins]

It hurts when you you read these stories seemingly everyday. :-(

A GUNMAN has opened fire on a group of parishioners attending a service in a church Colorado in the US, hours after two people were gunned down at a religious centre in the same state.

Colorado Springs police chief Richard Meyers confirmed two people, including the gunman, were killed and four people were wounded near the New Life Church.

Earlier reports had put the number killed in the second shooting in Colorado Springs at five.

Mr Meyers said the gunman was killed by a church security agent, and some of the people wounded in the shooting had life-threatening injuries.

Fox News reported that an "improvised explosive device" was found inside the church and that police were searching for a car that may contain more explosives.

The New Life Church is an evangelical congregation of about 10,000 members.

"It's a sad day and a tragic day in Colorado Springs," said Mayor Lionel Rivera.

"They came to church to worship, what happened today was a tragedy," said the church pastor, Brady Boyd.

"It's unfortunate that we live in a society where this happens, but it does."

Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Fletcher Howard said earlier that police were not sure if a second gunman was at large.

One witness told CNN he saw a young man wearing combat boots and with an assault rifle and a handgun.

A shooting 12 hours earlier in a Christian missionary centre at Arvada, a suburb of Denver, left two staff members in their mid-20s dead and two others wounded.

The young gunman apparently fled the before authorities arrived.

Authorities said no one had been captured in the earlier slayings in Arvada.

It was not known if the two shootings were related.

However Paul Filidis, a spokesman for the missionary group in Arvada, said the organisation rented an office from the New Life Church.

The New Life Church was founded by pastor Ted Haggard, who resigned in disgrace in 2006 after admitting to sexually immoral conduct.

Rob Brendle, associate pastor at the New Life Church, said: "It's been a dramatic day and we are participating with the police investigation right now."

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22897848-2,00.html

 

[Trevenant]

Reading the news is depressing, yes indeed. Especially when shit like this happens. It hasn't even been a week since the last shooting. :/

 

[Calvin]

Reading the news is depressing, yes indeed. Especially when shit like this happens. It hasn't even been a week since the last shooting. :/

I know. A church shooting, how weird. The people come to worship God, then their lives end. It must be some sort of religious thing.

 

[flyinglilypad]

That's freaking horrible. All these shootings... there is a hell of a lot of them now. Even more than usual. The 2nd have of '07... just unbelievable.

I'm glad I don't go to church.

 

[Perxio]

Belated response as this is, but I find it ironic that the very people that I find usually supporting the whole "WE GOTTA HAVE GUNS OR YOU'RE UNPATRIOTIC* AND AN INSULT TO HUMANITY FOR RISKING EVERYONE'S LIVES YOU SELFISH SON OF A BITCH" gang, (*funny because most of these guys I know have Confederate flags on anything they can slap it on) the conservative religious zealots, had someone toting in a gun to blow the brains out of some people in their own place of worship. I hate that people were killed because of some asshat, but if any good had come from it, it'd be it setting the record straight how anyone having guns=bad idea to the people who seem to want this "right"(to murder) the most.

 

[flyinglilypad]

Okay, first of all Ralli, most of the people I know that own guns don't even own them legally. Someone I know has a freakin' AK-47. And no, they didn't get special permission to own it. They bought it off someone at work.

Illegalize guns. People will still get them, from smugglers. And if every country banned their manufacture, people would make them illegally. Guns have to be legal so innocent people can protect themselves.

Because, sadly, the innocent don't usually patronize the black market.

 

[Dual]

You know, I used to have a similar view on guns as both Ralli on flyinglilypad. Mainly being that guns are bad. I mean, let's face it. It used to be that if you wanted to kill someone, you had to be stronger and faster than the person that you want to kill. However, guns took that away. Now all you need to kill someone is a working finger.

But then someone pointed out to me that the same thing that makes gun so bad is what makes them such a blessing. You no longer have to be stronger or faster than the mugger who pulls a knife on you as you're heading back to your car from the ATM machine at night, or than the would-be rapist who breaks into your house at two in the morning.

Blaming the gun for the sins of the user is simply shifting blame. If someone goes out and shoots someone because they're bored, it's because he's a total whackjob, not because the gun made him do it.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

But then someone pointed out to me that the same thing that makes gun so bad is what makes them such a blessing. You no longer have to be stronger or faster than the mugger who pulls a knife on you as you're heading back to your car from the ATM machine at night, or than the would-be rapist who breaks into your house at two in the morning.

You do realize that's a self-defeating argument, right? Because now someone who normally WOULDN'T hurt someone else now CAN because it's just as easy as pulling a trigger (I point to EVERY MASS SHOOTING as supporting evidence).

Honestly, how many people are saved from being raped because someone else had a gun? I'd REALLY like to see some statistics on that. Everyone has it in their mind that someone breaks in and, bam, you've got the gun in and hand and held to the guy's head. Between someone actually having to make enough noise to wake you up to you having to find the gun, find the guy, be awake enough to get off a good enough shot (or sneak up on the guy), AND assuming the guy who broke in doesn't have a gun of his own (in which case, he's already one up on you because HE'S AWAKE) OR already taken YOUR gun, the odds of your involvement meaning jackshit are fairly low.

YES, if someone wants a gun bad enough, they'll go the illegal route. You having one isn't going to change that. You having one isn't going to magically prevent people from breaking in and killing you, stealing your things, or raping your women.

Blaming the gun for the sins of the user is simply shifting blame. If someone goes out and shoots someone because they're bored, it's because he's a total whackjob, not because the gun made him do it.

No, but the gun gave him an outlet for his rage. One that allowed him to kill numerous people from a distance.

Illegalize guns. People will still get them, from smugglers. And if every country banned their manufacture, people would make them illegally. Guns have to be legal so innocent people can protect themselves.

People make bombs illegally. How do we protect ourselves from them?

 

[flyinglilypad]

Marv, maybe you should read my whole post. I was pointing out that illegalization does NOT work.

And yes, people in my families live's have been saved because they had a gun. By the same token, members of my family have been fatally stabbed to death.

And if you want to kill a lot of people, there is always nerve gas, explosives, and bioweapons. Serial killers operating without guns have killed plenty.

Guns are not evil. Eliminate guns and there will always be something to take their place.

In the 1300's, tons of French knights were killed when England started using Archers.

 

[!Tommy]

Personally, I think that people that have to open fire like that in public are nothing but a bunch stupid, ignorant idiots that get a thrill from killing people. This is especially true when they kill a whole bunch of people and then they turn the guns on themselves. How dumb can you be? They should just save time and others lives by just killing themselves from the very start. However, that is not the case here but once they get caught they'll wish they had killed themselves.

 

[Dual]

You having one isn't going to change that. You having one isn't going to magically prevent people from breaking in and killing you, stealing your things, or raping your women.

I never said it would. I said that when someone does do those things, you now have a viable way of defending yourself against them.

No, but the gun gave him an outlet for his rage. One that allowed him to kill numerous people from a distance.

Do you honestly think that if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have come up with another way? If there's anything mankind has proven in it's time on this planet is that we can always come up with new and more devastating ways of killing each other.

 

[Ben Cousins]

Marv, maybe you should read my whole post. I was pointing out that illegalization does NOT work.

And yes, people in my families live's have been saved because they had a gun. By the same token, members of my family have been fatally stabbed to death.

And if you want to kill a lot of people, there is always nerve gas, explosives, and bioweapons. Serial killers operating without guns have killed plenty.

Guns are not evil. Eliminate guns and there will always be something to take their place.

In the 1300's, tons of French knights were killed when England started using Archers.

It does actually, here in Australia we are not allowed to carry guns unless in extremely specific circumstances, and we have had so very few gun-related deaths, compared to the United States. I'm not saying we have absolutely no gun deaths, as this year there was a shooting in Melbourne which claimed the life of one person, and a bikie-gang brawl here in Perth a few years ago which claimed the lives of two people. And of course a decade ago with the Port Arthur massacre, the worst killing spree in modern history.

It is so simple to kill someone with a gun, if some one came into a room with twenty people and pulled out a gun everyone would be gutless to stand up to the perpetrator (and, thus, it would take the gunman a short amount of time to kill many before armed forces arrive). But, lets say guns were banned (at least the use of handguns which are extremely easy to obtain, or so I hear) and a man or woman enters the same room with a knife. There would be some brave people who would actually approach the person in question and attempt to disarm him. Additionally, the killer would kill less people then a gunman would before armed forces arrive.

 

[the gadfly]

Okay, first of all Ralli, most of the people I know that own guns don't even own them legally. Someone I know has a freakin' AK-47. And no, they didn't get special permission to own it. They bought it off someone at work.

So, if you know they are illegal, what have you done to report it to the authorities? Or will you abet their crimes? What does that make you?

 

[Rumar]

[FONT=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]Church shootings, in the headlines because of the attacks by Matthew Murray, 24, of Englewood, Colo., on two Christian groups last weekend, are on the rise across the United States, even though they're not yet at epidemic proportions. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]Murray killed two people at a Youth With A Mission missionary training center in Arvada, Colo., early last Sunday morning, then apparently posted some rantings on the Internet, and drove to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs where he killed two teen girls. He also wounded half a dozen others before he was confronted by a church member volunteering as a security guard, and was shot. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]A tabulation of church shootings, or those closely related to a church setting, was done by Gary Cass, chairman of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission, and include 10 such attacks over the last four years, including Murray's two attacks. [/FONT]

Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59219

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Marv, maybe you should read my whole post. I was pointing out that illegalization does NOT work.

No, you were pointing out that LEGALIZATION isn't working. I mean, if people are STILL buying them illegally, what's the point?

And if you want to kill a lot of people, there is always nerve gas, explosives, and bioweapons. Serial killers operating without guns have killed plenty.

EXACTLY. And how is a gun going to save you in those instances?

Guns are not evil.

I'd call ANYTHING whose sole purpose is to injure or kill a thing of evil.

Eliminate guns and there will always be something to take their place.

Yes, and why does that mean we should keep guns legal?

In the 1300's, tons of French knights were killed when England started using Archers.

Yes. And...?

I never said it would. I said that when someone does do those things, you now have a viable way of defending yourself against them.

But if they were illegal, it would be all that much harder for them to do those things.

Do you honestly think that if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have come up with another way?

Depends how desperate he was. Take away the gun, and maybe he rethinks things. Maybe not. If it doesn't change anything, then what's the problem with making them illegal?

If there's anything mankind has proven in it's time on this planet is that we can always come up with new and more devastating ways of killing each other.

So we should all have nuclear weapons "just in case"?

 

[Zeta]

Illegalize guns. People will still get them, from smugglers. And if every country banned their manufacture, people would make them illegally. Guns have to be legal so innocent people can protect themselves.

Because, sadly, the innocent don't usually patronize the black market.

So we should legalize all dangerous substances and weapons just because "people will get them anyways on the black market"?

But then someone pointed out to me that the same thing that makes gun so bad is what makes them such a blessing. You no longer have to be stronger or faster than the mugger who pulls a knife on you as you're heading back to your car from the ATM machine at night, or than the would-be rapist who breaks into your house at two in the morning.

If both parties have gun, you still have to be faster or you end up dead anyways. Name one use for a gun that doesn't involve killing something.

And yes, people in my families live's have been saved because they had a gun. By the same token, members of my family have been fatally stabbed to death.

Knives have uses other than killing people and animals. Guns do not.

And if you want to kill a lot of people, there is always nerve gas, explosives, and bioweapons. Serial killers operating without guns have killed plenty.

Do you honestly think that if he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have come up with another way? If there's anything mankind has proven in it's time on this planet is that we can always come up with new and more devastating ways of killing each other.

Let's legalize all of them too, since "anyone can get them on the black market" as well. I want my own strain of anthrax for "self-protection".

If it's pointless to try to stop people from killing eachother, why make any dangerous substance illegal?

Why, because even doing that at least MARGINALLY reduces the chances of someone walking into Wal-Mart and getting a death machine for 70 bucks.

 

[flyinglilypad]

Marv, I'd appreciate it if you'd use some dang logic. Here's how your logic looks:

Marv: Guns kill people, are bad

Flyinglilypad: But other stuff kills people too

Marv: Aha! and how are guns going to save you from them?!

That just renders your whole point irrelevent. And you just look like a moron.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

My logic is just as sane, if not more so, than your logic. Let me quote Zeta on this, because he phrased it much better than I could:

So we should legalize all dangerous substances and weapons just because "people will get them anyways on the black market"?

 

[flyinglilypad]

Justice & Logic

Basically, yeah. Making things illegal just creates more crime. Why should only criminals be allowed to have guns? Let's keep our guns out of the hands of say, teachers and lawyers, and let rapists and drug dealers have them. GENIUS!

And the poor judge who sentenced the child molester to 8 years hears a noise downstairs. He reaches for his gun-oh wait, he doesn't have one. The pissed convict enters the room and blows the judge's brains onto the ceiling. Yay Justice! Yay gun control!

Ho ho ho!

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Basically, yeah. Making things illegal just creates more crime. Why should only criminals be allowed to have guns? Let's keep our guns out of the hands of say, teachers and lawyers, and let rapists and drug dealers have them. GENIUS!

So we should legalize all weapons, then? Bombs, nuclear devices, automatic rifles, bazookas, land mines, claymores, sawed-off shotguns, etc.?

And the poor judge who sentenced the child molester to 8 years hears a noise downstairs. He reaches for his gun-oh wait, he doesn't have one. The pissed convict enters the room and blows the judge's brains onto the ceiling. Yay Justice! Yay gun control!

Ho ho ho!

Because that doesn't happen with guns being legal? Even when they're surrounded by men with guns, it still happens. Seemingly anywhere. If someone wants you dead, THEY WILL KILL YOU. Guns being legal doesn't throw up some magical shield.