Type Retcons- From a Lore Perspective

[PkmnTrainerV]

You're an innocent trainer from Kanto, who's travelling to Kalos. Once you're there, you need your Togekiss from Sinnoh! You get it transferred, somehow. You were proud of this Normal/Flying bird, which kept fighting types at bay. You also liked that it added a ghost immunity to all the General flying effectiveness.

But, as you began using Togekiss in Kalos, you realised that it used a lot of pink moves! It had replaced normal with fairy! You find that your bird now wrecked fighting types, and it really began to struggle against Steel and Poison types!

What do you think?

This is a story which I think every hypothetical trainer in the new Pokemon Universe faces. From a lore perspective, how does type change make sense?
According to you, how do Pokemon Trainers in the Universe handle such changes? What would be the explanation for them from a lore perspective?

 

[Esserise]

Transuniversal travel probably changes them somehow on a fundamental level (maybe the Unown in the new universe vibrate somewhat differently). Their EVs get recalculated, too, and instances of the species who received 10-point BST increases in XY are also affected in that regard.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Transuniversal travel probably changes them somehow on a fundamental level (maybe the Unown in the new universe vibrate somewhat differently). Their EVs get recalculated, too, and instances of the species who received 10-point BST additions in XY are also affected in that regard.

On the ten point boost on Pokemon like Raichu, I have a teeny tiny headcannon that Raichu was very depressed in the pre-mega universe, and their trainers always preferred Pikachu over them, so, the Raichu, when transferred, wanted to show their power to their new trainer, and got more stronger.

But the fact that Pikachu got a 20 point boost hurts this headcannon a lot.

 

[Esserise]

But the fact that Pikachu got a 20 point boost hurts this headcannon a lot.

I guess Raichu then decided to go drown its sorrows in pancakes in Hawaii.

 

[Instrutilus]

I'm just gonna go ahead and post a ORAS/Sun and Moon spoiler here:

Spoiler

The Fairy-type didn't exist pre-Gen VI because it was set in a different universe. As far as the lore is concerned, Togekiss was always a Fairy/Flying-type, same goes for everything else. It would be interesting to see the events of Gen VI and VII play out within the pre-Gen VI universe, without the Fairy-type and Mega Evolution/Z-Moves, though.

 

[Esserise]

Spoiler

The Fairy-type didn't exist pre-Gen VI because it was set in a different universe. As far as the lore is concerned, Togekiss was always a Fairy/Flying-type, same goes for everything else.

Yeah, but OP is asking what's physically going on when you transfer a Normal/Flying Togekiss from the old games' universe to the new games' universe, which somehow transforms it into a Fairy/Flying type.

Spoiler

It would be interesting to see the events of Gen VI and VII play out within the pre-Gen VI universe, without the Fairy-type and Mega Evolution/Z-Moves, though.

It really wouldn't be all that noteworthy. The events of XY just flat-out wouldn't happen. There'd be no Team Flare. There'd be no AZ. There'd be no Tower of Mastery. Sycamore would have a different field of study. And there's no telling where Xerneas/Yveltal would be. Essentially, Calem/Serena would have the most plain, unremarkable journey in the series yet.

ORAS would just be, well, RSE.

And then nothing in SM is dependent on Mega Evolution, although I guess the tapu would have to have different type combinations (I shudder to think that Koko, Bulu, and Fini would all be ____/Psychic, and Lele would be mono-Psychic). Also, as far as we know, Z-Moves aren't exclusive to the 3DS games' universe, so those wouldn't necessarily be gone.

 

[Instrutilus]

Yeah, but OP is asking what's physically going on when you transfer a Normal/Flying Togekiss from the old games' universe to the new games' universe, which somehow transforms it into a Fairy/Flying type.

The way I see it,

Spoiler

the Pokémon is a Faller, which fell into the new universe without it's trainer or was sent there so it could survive the Ultra Beasts, and the universal crossing merely alters it to better fit in. Otherwise, the original trainer remains in the old universe and perishes with it (considering the Ultra Beasts' Pokédex entries) and the new trainer doesn't notice because they've always been like that.

It really wouldn't be all that noteworthy. The events of XY just flat-out wouldn't happen. There'd be no Team Flare. There'd be no AZ. Sycamore would have a different field of study. Essentially, Calem/Serena would have the most plain, unremarkable journey in the series yet

Well, that or Lysandre just goes a more conventional route and tries to provoke the legendaries into wiping out all "non-beautiful" life without using a weapon.

And then nothing in SM is dependent on Mega Evolution, although I guess the tapu would have to have different type combinations (I shudder to think that Koko, Bulu, and Fini would all be ____/Psychic, and Lele would be mono-Psychic). Also, as far as we know, Z-Moves aren't exclusive to the 3DS games' universe, so those wouldn't necessarily be gone.

I figure Mega Evolution and Z-Moves are related due to Sina and Dexio's comments. Perhaps where Mega Evolution uses the bond energy gradually, Z-Moves uses it in one burst, so Z-Moves are more powerful but can only be used once, where as Mega Evolution can boost the Pokémon's power overall.

 

[Esserise]

The way I see it,

Spoiler

the Pokémon is a Faller, which fell into the new universe without it's trainer or was sent there so it could survive the Ultra Beasts, and the universal crossing merely alters it to better fit in. Otherwise, the original trainer remains in the old universe and perishes with it (considering the Ultra Beasts' Pokédex entries) and the new trainer doesn't notice because they've always been like that.

There's not much reason to think that the old universe is being destroyed by UBs. They can be defended against, and killed if necessary, and we haven't thus far been told that doing so requires anything exclusive to the Mega universe.

In fact, it'd be kind of a waste to just (quietly and deeply implicitly) kill off that entire universe only one installment after confirming to us that it exists in the first place.

Well, that or Lysandre just goes a more conventional route and tries to provoke the legendaries into wiping out all "non-beautiful" life without using a weapon.

Maybe. Perhaps it'd play out like it did in the anime, with Zygarde being his focus.

Although, now that I think about it, Lysandre is the great-x1000-nephew of AZ. In the old universe, Kalos never experienced the great war that prompted AZ the use the weapon, which is what caused AZ's brother to have a change of heart. So with AZ's brother remaining greedy, how might that affect Lysandre down the line?

Furthermore, did AZ ever become the ruler of an advanced nation in that timeline to begin with? That is, after all, why his brother sought to overthrow him. The AZ that we know brought Kalos to prosperity using his advanced technology, but it was that prosperity that led to the war. Since there was no war in that timeline, we might infer that the old universe's Kalos was never developed by AZ, which begs the question of whether he was involved in its history at all, and if not, then why not? (Perhaps the old universe's AZ fell into a wormhole before he could go to Kalos?)

Okay, I'll admit, I do find that more interesting than I first gave it credit for.

I figure Mega Evolution and Z-Moves are related due to Sina and Dexio's comments. Perhaps where Mega Evolution uses the bond energy gradually, Z-Moves uses it in one burst, so Z-Moves are more powerful but can only be used once, where as Mega Evolution can boost the Pokémon's power overall.

They're only "related" in the sense that they're similar in how they both draw power from the bond between a Trainer and their Pokémon. The actual mechanisms that enable Z-Moves - that is, Sparkling Stones and energy from the Ultra Wormholes - should theoretically be present in the old universe.

 

[Instrutilus]

There's not much reason to think that the old universe is being destroyed by UBs. They can be defended against, and killed if necessary, and we haven't thus far been told that doing so requires anything exclusive to the Mega universe.

In fact, it'd be kind of a waste to just (quietly and deeply implicitly) kill off that entire universe only one installment after confirming to us that it exists in the first place.

Alternately, it's more impactful due to the fact that we've spent three generations exploring it, defending it from nutters like Cyrus and Ghetsis, only to have it destroyed and everything we've done in it rendered for naught. The only confirmation we got was that we were playing in a new world with a Fairy-type and slightly different type effectiveness at play, otherwise the prior three gens proved it existed.

Spoiler

The reason I think it might have been destroyed is because of the Pokédex entries. From Moon, about Kartana:

"One of the Ultra Beast life-forms, it was observed cutting down a gigantic steel tower with one stroke of its blade."

Considering that no one really seems concerned about the Ultra Beasts, where was this observed? I also put it to you that Anabel was found saying how she had a tower to defend...

It's not the only one either. From Celesteela's Moon entry:

"One kind of Ultra Beast. Witnesses have seen it burn down a forest by expelling gas from its two arms."

So we can assume that they've caused a lot of observed destruction. Yet nothing in the new universe suggests it, while we've got one known universe where people have come through from.

Maybe. Perhaps it'd play out like it did in the anime, with Zygarde being his focus.

Although, now that I think about it, Lysandre is the great-x1000-nephew of AZ. In the old universe, Kalos never experienced the great war that prompted AZ the use the weapon, which is what caused AZ's brother to have a change of heart. So with AZ's brother remaining greedy, how might that affect Lysandre down the line?

Furthermore, did AZ ever become the ruler of an advanced nation in that timeline to begin with? That is, after all, why his brother sought to overthrow him. The AZ that we know brought Kalos to prosperity using his advanced technology, but it was that prosperity that led to the war. Since there was no war in that timeline, we might infer that the old universe's Kalos was never developed by AZ, which begs the question of whether he was involved in its history at all, and if not, then why not? (Perhaps the old universe's AZ fell into a wormhole before he could go to Kalos?)

Okay, I'll admit, I do find that more interesting than I first gave it credit for.

Indeed.

They're only "related" in the sense that they're similar in how they both draw power from the bond between a Trainer and their Pokémon. The actual mechanisms that enable Z-Moves - that is, Sparkling Stones and energy from the Ultra Wormholes - should theoretically be present in the old universe.

Well, both need special stones and need to draw power from the bonds between trainers and Pokémon. The Ultra Wormhole thing, I'm not sure of, I recall it being mentioned they had similar signatures and it was thought to be the case, but otherwise no one was sure.

 

[Ghostsoul]

Spoiler

the Pokémon is a Faller, which fell into the new universe without it's trainer or was sent there so it could survive the Ultra Beasts, and the universal crossing merely alters it to better fit in. Otherwise, the original trainer remains in the old universe and perishes with it (considering the Ultra Beasts' Pokédex entries) and the new trainer doesn't notice because they've always been like that.

Wait, would that mean

Spoiler: Sun/Moon Spoilers

Pokemon Bank is an ultra wormhole? Or possibly a controlled one?

On a similar note...

Spoiler: X/Y Spoilers

I like to think that the fairy type might have something to do with the 'Ultimate weapon'. So fairy type moves exist within that universe, whereas in the other universe they are similar moves with no 'Infinity energy' so they end up being normal moves instead?

I guess this leaves the fairy type to be a kind of unsettling combination between powers of 'life and 'death' from a kind of symbolic point of view. Perhaps even worse when you consider.

Spoiler: Even more Sun/Moon spoilers

The old universe, where the fairy type doesn't exist is either under attack, or well, dead.

 

[Instrutilus]

Wait, would that mean

Spoiler: Sun/Moon Spoilers

Pokemon Bank is an ultra wormhole? Or possibly a controlled one?

Probably, perhaps that Link Cable they intended to use in ORAS was one as well. That was what I was thinking of when I learned it was an alternate universe, the Link Cable technology being applied to try and save as much as they could from the doomed universe, but they only managed to transfer Pokéballs with the PC technology before whatever resistance they had fell.

I'm well aware there's absolutely no basis in the canon for this, but I think this would be more interesting than "Anabel fell through a Ultra Hole. Everything's fine, now, thank you... how are you?"

 

[Ghostsoul]

Probably, perhaps that Link Cable they intended to use in ORAS was one as well. That was what I was thinking of when I learned it was an alternate universe, the Link Cable technology being applied to try and save as much as they could from the doomed universe, but they only managed to transfer Pokéballs with the PC technology before whatever resistance they had fell.

I'm well aware there's absolutely no basis in the canon for this, but I think this would be more interesting than "Anabel fell through a Ultra Hole. Everything's fine, now, thank you... how are you?"

Do you think that?

Spoiler: MORE Sun/Moon spoilers

Someone could be actively trying to get people into the new universe from the old universe's side?
It would make some sense if the old universe is being attacked by the ultra beasts. They have very little to fight them with, perhaps their only option is to use what they brought to the old universe against them?

 

[Instrutilus]

Do you think that?

Spoiler: MORE Sun/Moon spoilers

Someone could be actively trying to get people into the new universe from the old universe's side?
It would make some sense if the old universe is being attacked by the ultra beasts. They have very little to fight them with, perhaps their only option is to use what they brought to the old universe against them?

I honestly think the old universe is in the process of evacuation. Consider that all the Legendaries in ORAS come out of Hoopa portals, not one is naturally present in their encounter. Also consider that a lot of them are active when they shouldn't be, such as Reshiram and Zekrom, who should be resting as the White and Black Stones.

My personal theory is that the Groudon/Kyogre event was a big bright light to Hoopa, due to the Primal Regression event putting out so much energy. So, when the event happened, it sent them to that point in timespace. For the Pokémon Transfer, it was more a case of waiting for technology to get that far, which ORAS has it advancing much quicker than it originally did, imo due to Infinite Energy. Bill designs the PC box, the Link Cable is established to send the Delta Meteor somewhere else, and suddenly a lot more Pokémon start appearing in random people's boxes than what they caught, all coming from different regions like Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, Unova, etc, and some knowing moves no one knew they could learn.

My other theory is why the Ultra Beasts entered. I, personally, blame Cyrus. The man drags two gods, that of Time and Space, into the physical plane and under his control, then has them start warping both before being stopped by a third God. To the Ultra Beasts, who are looking for way home, a God of Space and a God of Dimensions probably look like really good tickets. But then you have that other one, the God of Time, so you can't exactly figure out when it happened, because the event affected space but travelled up and down the time stream and made it look like a glowstick. So you pop in at random times, but all of you go in,

Spoiler

then Kartana's accidentally tear down the Battle Tower when an Ultra Portal opens up too close and they all stream out to look for Palkia or Giratina and the resulting 'counter-attack' provokes them into wiping out the Battle Frontier. Then everyone else starts attacking you and the Nihilego have gotten in and grabbed control of a few things and everything's just gone to hell, why did we come here?!

until eventually the world is destroyed and the two beings who might have been able to help have disappeared into the next universe over. Then the event happens again, but this time you remain calm and just send a few of your friends in, make sure they can't do that much damage, they get into fights with the local Tapu but it's fine, they just withdrew without causing too much damage, just try again later...

tl;dr Cyrus' antics made the timespace light up like a Christmas tree, brought them in, antics ensued, this time they're being careful.

 

[Esserise]

Alternately, it's more impactful due to the fact that we've spent three generations exploring it, defending it from nutters like Cyrus and Ghetsis, only to have it destroyed and everything we've done in it rendered for naught. The only confirmation we got was that we were playing in a new world with a Fairy-type and slightly different type effectiveness at play, otherwise the prior three gens proved it existed.

Spoiler

The reason I think it might have been destroyed is because of the Pokédex entries. From Moon, about Kartana:

"One of the Ultra Beast life-forms, it was observed cutting down a gigantic steel tower with one stroke of its blade."

Considering that no one really seems concerned about the Ultra Beasts, where was this observed? I also put it to you that Anabel was found saying how she had a tower to defend...

It's not the only one either. From Celesteela's Moon entry:

"One kind of Ultra Beast. Witnesses have seen it burn down a forest by expelling gas from its two arms."

So we can assume that they've caused a lot of observed destruction. Yet nothing in the new universe suggests it, while we've got one known universe where people have come through from.

If they wanted it to be "impactful," then surely they wouldn't have left it as something that you have to read very closely between the lines to even realize.

Nevertheless, you're not accounting for Gameplay and Story Segregation. The witness reports in the Pokédex are probably the ones that Looker keeps receiving as we're assigned new missions. We don't see any damage in the overworld or modified NPC text because it'd simply be a hassle. Just like how we're told in XY that the menhirs on Route 10 were destroyed after Team Flare was defeated, and yet, the route remains lined with the same stones as before.

It's a far simpler explanation that the Pokédex suddenly being able to pull information from a destroyed universe.

Well, both need special stones and need to draw power from the bonds between trainers and Pokémon.

Obviously there's a similar process to initiate it, but all that really indicates is that maybe the bond can only be manifested when certain vectors are there to facilitate it.

Mega Evolution is specifically tied to the ultimate weapon, which we're told is something that only exists in the universe of the 3DS games.

The Ultra Wormhole thing, I'm not sure of, I recall it being mentioned they had similar signatures and it was thought to be the case, but otherwise no one was sure.

Kukui says that he and Burnet are researching Z-Power and think that there may be a connection between it and the energy from the wormholes.

But given that the animation for Z-Moves uses the exact same aura "flare" as the UBs' auras and the Totem auras (which are outright stated to be derived from wormhole energy), the logical conclusion is that their hunch is correct.

On a similar note...

Spoiler: X/Y Spoilers

I like to think that the fairy type might have something to do with the 'Ultimate weapon'. So fairy type moves exist within that universe, whereas in the other universe they are similar moves with no 'Infinity energy' so they end up being normal moves instead?

Though it should be noted that Fairy types pre-date the weapon's existence. In fact, it was only built because a certain Fairy type died.

 

[Instrutilus]

Gameplay and Story Segregation. The witness reports in the Pokédex are probably the ones that Looker keeps receiving as we're assigned new missions. We don't see any damage in the overworld because it'd simply be a hassle. Just like how we're told in XY that the menhirs on Route 10 were destroyed after Team Flare was defeated, and yet, the route is still lined with the same stones as before.

It's a far simpler explanation that the Pokédex suddenly being able to pull information from a destroyed universe.

Spoiler

Who said they were pulling data out the old universe? Looker and Anabel got in, and they note Ultra Beasts are attracted to Fallers, how do you think they learned that little tidbit?

Obviously there's a similar process to initiate it, but all that really indicates is that maybe the bond can only be manifested when certain vectors are there to facilitate it.

Mega Evolution is specifically tied to the ultimate weapon, which we're told is something that only exists in the universe of the 3DS games.

Wasn't Mega Evolution tied to the meteor that landed in what is now Sootopolis?

Kukui says that he and Burnet are researching Z-Power and think that there may be a connection between it and the energy from the wormholes.

But given that the animation for Z-Moves uses the exact same aura "flare" as the UBs' auras and the Totem auras (which are outright said to be derived from wormhole energy), the logical conclusion is that their hunch is correct.

True, though I'd rather wait until there's confirmation. Otherwise, I'll give yah that one.

 

[Esserise]

Who said they were pulling data out the old universe? Looker and Anabel got in, and they note Ultra Beasts are attracted to Fallers, how do you think they learned that little tidbit?

I don't know, you tell me. Any Fallers who have arrived in the Mega universe probably aren't going to remember anything from the old universe, so neither Anabel nor Looker's previous partner would have likely recalled any of these witness reports. And the Looker that we interact with in SM isn't a Faller, so he's not going to have seen anything in the old universe either.

Wasn't Mega Evolution tied to the meteor that landed in what is now Sootopolis?

It was, but notably, that meteor doesn't seem to have existed in the other universe either. In RSE, Sootopolis is said to have formed passively out of a dormant volcano that filled with rainwater.

 

[Instrutilus]

I don't know, you tell me. Any Fallers who have arrived in the Mega universe probably aren't going to remember anything from the old universe, so neither Anabel nor Looker's previous partner would have likely recalled any of these witness reports. And the Looker that we interact with in SM isn't a Faller, so he's not going to have seen anything in the old universe either.

Yes, but Anabel (since we're not spoilering these things now, for some reason) did start recalling details, such as her name and the tower she had to guard. I honestly think other Fallers did start popping up and began giving Interpol as much as they could remember, even if it wasn't enough, it was enough to give an idea of what was happening to the old Universe.

It was, but notably, that meteor doesn't seem to have existed in the other universe either. In RSE, Sootopolis is said to have formed passively out of a dormant volcano that filled with rainwater.

Old Universe, several centuries ago: "Phew, we're lucky that meteor missed us. That might have been bad!"

 

[Esserise]

Yes, but Anabel (since we're not spoilering these things now, for some reason) did start recalling details, such as her name and the tower she had to guard. I honestly think other Fallers did start popping up and began giving Interpol as much as they could remember, even if it wasn't enough, it was enough to give an idea of what was happening to the old Universe.

And you're free to think that, but as was my point, it's not suggested by the games. Based on what the games tell us, you have to stretch what information we are given, and in a very specific way at that, in order to reach the vaguely-defined conclusion of "something very bad might be happening to the old universe because of UBs."

 

[Ghostsoul]

I honestly think the old universe is in the process of evacuation. Consider that all the Legendaries in ORAS come out of Hoopa portals, not one is naturally present in their encounter.
Also consider that a lot of them are active when they shouldn't be, such as Reshiram and Zekrom, who should be resting as the White and Black Stones.
My personal theory is that the Groudon/Kyogre event was a big bright light to Hoopa, due to the Primal Regression event putting out so much energy. So, when the event happened, it sent them to that point in timespace. For the Pokémon Transfer, it was more a case of waiting for technology to get that far, which ORAS has it advancing much quicker than it originally did, imo due to Infinite Energy. Bill designs the PC box, the Link Cable is established to send the Delta Meteor somewhere else, and suddenly a lot more Pokémon start appearing in random people's boxes than what they caught, all coming from different regions like Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, Unova, etc, and some knowing moves no one knew they could learn.

Make me think, which specific characters in the old universe do you think could be in the evacuation effort? Probably a lot of the 'Computer storage' system designers, Saturn (if it's Cyrus's fault, he'll see it as a way of correcting those mistakes), perhaps Dr.Fennel? (Originally from the Gen 5 'Dream World') I would say olduniverse!Colress as well, but considering his appearance in SM and mentions in XY, he'll probably be doing something similar to his counterpart. The old Battle Frontier memebers might have also begun aiding it/investigating it after they were attacked by the Ultra Beasts as well?

Though it should be noted that Fairy types pre-date the weapon's existence. In fact, it was only built because a certain Fairy type died.

Ah, yeah, my bad.
I guess the ultimate weapon could have something that enhanced the power of the 'Fairy' type beyond 'Normal' in some way? But I'm not sure if my point still stands.

 

[Esserise]

Ah, yeah, my bad.
I guess the ultimate weapon could have something that enhanced the power of the 'Fairy' type beyond 'Normal' in some way? But I'm not sure if my point still stands.

I guess, but I don't think such an explanation would be necessary. The weapon's existence isn't the point of divergence between the timelines. In the old universe, the war in Kalos never happened, period, which means that the region must have had an entirely different sociopolitical climate, and the Hoenn of that timeline seems to have never been bothered by any significant meteor impacts, which I don't think the weapon (or lack thereof) could have been responsible for. The existence of the Fairy type may simply be another consequence of some even-further-back divergence point.

*sigh*... I really hope they know what they're doing with this plot.