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WE HAVE A POPE

Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Pope Francis I

Arch Bishop of Buenos Aires Argentina

The very first Latin American Pope, he is some one who is a very strong man, who is very much a man of the people as I am being told, including riding the bus everyday to work. He is also 76 years old.
 
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
I love watching all the LGBT news sites I follow being like, "Hey guys, just so you know, he's also anti-gay!"

It's like NO SHIT SHERLOCK. I would be surprised if they picked a Pope who wasn't.
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Well, there's anti-gay and there's anti-gay. There's zero chance right now of a pro-gay pope, but there was hope for one who hadn't made anti-gay rhetoric such a priority in his career. This guy got into a shouting match with the Argentinian government over gay marriage.

It's a shame really, as he does seem to be an improvement in other areas.
 
Bikini Miltank said:
Well, there's anti-gay and there's anti-gay. There's zero chance right now of a pro-gay pope, but there was hope for one who hadn't made anti-gay rhetoric such a priority in his career. This guy got into a shouting match with the Argentinian government over gay marriage.

It's a shame really, as he does seem to be an improvement in other areas.
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Ah, I wasn't aware he was that bad. The ones who aren't like "Hey he's still anti-gay!" seem to be like "Well at least he's not Benedict!" so I assumed he was better.

But yeah, now that I'm reading quotes from him - sheesh.

I think even lesser anti-gay popes weren't likely because the church seems to be trending more and more socially conservative ever since John Paul II, and the cardinals who have the clout to play a role in these decisions would presumably be those who are in agreement with those ideals.
 
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
Bikini Miltank said:
Well, there's anti-gay and there's anti-gay. There's zero chance right now of a pro-gay pope, but there was hope for one who hadn't made anti-gay rhetoric such a priority in his career. This guy got into a shouting match with the Argentinian government over gay marriage.

It's a shame really, as he does seem to be an improvement in other areas.
Click to expand...

Ah, I wasn't aware he was that bad. The ones who aren't like "Hey he's still anti-gay!" seem to be like "Well at least he's not Benedict!" so I assumed he was better.

But yeah, now that I'm reading quotes from him - sheesh.

I think even lesser anti-gay popes weren't likely because the church seems to be trending more and more socially conservative ever since John Paul II, and the cardinals who have the clout to play a role in these decisions would presumably be those who are in agreement with those ideals.
Click to expand...

At least he wasn't a Nazi.
 
Bikini Miltank said:
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
I love watching all the LGBT news sites I follow being like, "Hey guys, just so you know, he's also anti-gay!"

It's like NO SHIT SHERLOCK. I would be surprised if they picked a Pope who wasn't.
Click to expand...
Well, there's anti-gay and there's anti-gay. There's zero chance right now of a pro-gay pope, but there was hope for one who hadn't made anti-gay rhetoric such a priority in his career. This guy got into a shouting match with the Argentinian government over gay marriage.

It's a shame really, as he does seem to be an improvement in other areas.
Click to expand...

So... you are shocked that the Pope is catholic?
 
Big Lutz said:
Bikini Miltank said:
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
I love watching all the LGBT news sites I follow being like, "Hey guys, just so you know, he's also anti-gay!"

It's like NO SHIT SHERLOCK. I would be surprised if they picked a Pope who wasn't.
Click to expand...
Well, there's anti-gay and there's anti-gay. There's zero chance right now of a pro-gay pope, but there was hope for one who hadn't made anti-gay rhetoric such a priority in his career. This guy got into a shouting match with the Argentinian government over gay marriage.

It's a shame really, as he does seem to be an improvement in other areas.
Click to expand...

So... you are shocked that the Pope is catholic?
Click to expand...

No, he's saying there's a difference between holding the anti-gay views that one would expect from a leader in the Catholic Church, and making them a huge personal priority. Everyone has pet issues, even cardinals.
 
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
[I think even lesser anti-gay popes weren't likely because the church seems to be trending more and more socially conservative ever since John Paul II, and the cardinals who have the clout to play a role in these decisions would presumably be those who are in agreement with those ideals.
Click to expand...
It's partly reactionary, I think. There was a time when the church didn't feel the need to talk about homosexuality much because it was just assumed that everyone agreed with them. Now the rest of the world is gradually coming around to the idea that it's actually fine, and so the church is suddenly out of line with mainstream thought in some countries, and it's freaking out.

That said, I don't think it's a priority either way when selecting popes right now. Their main concerns are the child abuse coverups and the corruption allegations that hung over the last pope, and what they wanted was to find someone as far away from all of that as possible.
 
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
No, he's saying there's a difference between holding the anti-gay views that one would expect from a leader in the Catholic Church, and making them a huge personal priority. Everyone has pet issues, even cardinals.
Click to expand...

You do realize as a Cardinal that they uphold the beliefs of the church, and the beliefs of the religion, and the religion is not one to support Gay Marriage.
 
Big Lutz said:
You do realize as a Cardinal that they uphold the beliefs of the church, and the beliefs of the religion, and the religion is not one to support Gay Marriage.
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The church opposes a lot of things. Some cardinals make noisy, hard-line opposition to certain things a bigger priority than others. Of course any cardinal under serious consideration is going to be tacitly anti-gay. But there are some who quietly follow the party line, and some who make it their personal crusade.
 
Big Lutz said:
Goodbye Blue Monday said:
No, he's saying there's a difference between holding the anti-gay views that one would expect from a leader in the Catholic Church, and making them a huge personal priority. Everyone has pet issues, even cardinals.
Click to expand...

You do realize as a Cardinal that they uphold the beliefs of the church, and the beliefs of the religion, and the religion is not one to support Gay Marriage.
Click to expand...

Again, no one is saying that he wouldn't be expected to uphold the beliefs of the church.

We're talking about if that is a cause where he'd put particular focus, as opposed to others.
 
Big Lutz said:
Bikini Miltank said:
Big Lutz said:
So... you are shocked that the Pope is catholic?
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Did you actually read my post?
Click to expand...

Yes I did, as well as your latest post that is basically "The church needs to get on board because much of the world supports Gay Marriage". The problem with that is you expect religion to change just because views change.
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Again: not what I actually posted. I said the church was freaking out because mainstream thought is changing around them. They don't need to change. They're one of the most powerful organizations in the world; they can take centuries worth of damage before it starts to affect them in any sort of noticeable way. I am not suggesting that a pro-gay church is any sort of realistic prospect.
 
Bikini Miltank said:
The church opposes a lot of things. Some cardinals make noisy, hard-line opposition to certain things a bigger priority than others. Of course any cardinal under serious consideration is going to be tacitly anti-gay. But there are some who quietly follow the party line, and some who make it their personal crusade.
Click to expand...

And so far the only evidence you presented is that he got into a shouting match over Gay Marriage, do you honestly expect any high ranking Cardinal NOT to put up a fight on Gay Marriage?

Goodbye Blue Monday said:
Again, no one is saying that he wouldn't be expected to uphold the beliefs of the church.

We're talking about if that is a cause where he'd put particular focus, as opposed to others.
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And what evidence is there that he has gone above and beyond what anyone else in the church would go on Gays?
 
Big Lutz said:
And so far the only evidence you presented is that he got into a shouting match over Gay Marriage, do you honestly expect any high ranking Cardinal NOT to put up a fight on Gay Marriage?

And what evidence is there that he has gone above and beyond what anyone else in the church would go on Gays?
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A lot of countries have marriage equality. Those countries have cardinals. Cardinals who have echoed church teaching when questioned about it, sure, but have not sought to inject themselves into a political argument. Look into the past statements of any cardinal and you're going to find something anti-gay at some point; that's inevitable. But Bergoglio's rhetoric was seen as surprising within Argentina. Nobody was expecting him to be supportive of gay marriage, but the zealousness he brought to his opposition, and his equating gay adoption with child abuse, actually earned him a verbal smackdown from the president. This is my point. He could have quietly disapproved, as other cardinals have. He chose to fight on this issue, and that says something about where he stands within the church.

The cardinals are not a uniform bloc of gestalt thought. They disagree with each other on lots of things. When it comes to the things that they all officially agree on, they prioritize some things over other things. This variety of thought is the reason that papal elections are necessary. I don't think it's a controversial statement to claim that not all popes will have identical stances on any given issue.

My claim is simply that while the new pope was always going to be homophobic officially, there was the potential for a pope who was less openly homophobic than the one we got. Scola, for example, has said some uncharitable things about gay people in his books, but it's not one of the bullet points of his career in the same way that getting into a highly publicized fight with an elected government over the matter is.
 
Bikini Miltank said:
A lot of countries have marriage equality. Those countries have cardinals. Cardinals who have echoed church teaching when questioned about it, sure, but have not sought to inject themselves into a political argument. Look into the past statements of any cardinal and you're going to find something anti-gay at some point; that's inevitable. But Bergoglio's rhetoric was seen as surprising within Argentina. Nobody was expecting him to be supportive of gay marriage, but the zealousness he brought to his opposition, and his equating gay adoption with child abuse, actually earned him a verbal smackdown from the president. This is my point. He could have quietly disapproved, as other cardinals have. He chose to fight on this issue, and that says something about where he stands within the church.
Click to expand...

You will also find alot of Cardinals who seek to interject themselves into politics, and I still see nothing in what you say between his opposition to Gay Marriage to Gay Adoption as something that is not widely supported by the church.

Bikini Miltank said:
The cardinals are not a uniform bloc of gestalt thought. They disagree with each other on lots of things. When it comes to the things that they all officially agree on, they prioritize some things over other things. This variety of thought is the reason that papal elections are necessary. I don't think it's a controversial statement to claim that not all popes will have identical stances on any given issue.
Click to expand...

They may not, but I think it is safe to say, very few if any, are pro gay marriage and gay adoption merely because of the strong anti gay stance the church and their interpretation of scripture takes.

Bikini Miltank said:
My claim is simply that while the new pope was always going to be homophobic officially, there was the potential for a pope who was less openly homophobic than the one we got. Scola, for example, has said some uncharitable things about gay people in his books, but it's not one of the bullet points of his career in the same way that getting into a highly publicized fight with an elected government over the matter is.
Click to expand...

But you are merely focusing on one fight, all of them are going to be largely anti-gay ( Again its the Catholic Church, what do you expect, as I said in my first statement, the Pope IS Catholic ), so why not look at the things that actually differentiate them, such as this Pope's work on the poor, or his very traditional means in that he rejects alot of the perks of his position.
 
Big Lutz said:
You will also find alot of Cardinals who seek to interject themselves into politics, and I still see nothing in what you say between his opposition to Gay Marriage to Gay Adoption as something that is not widely supported by the church.
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There is a difference between "The church believes being gay is a sin" and "Being gay near children is child abuse". I'm aware that every cardinal is going to believe the former. I don't think we should expect that they all also believe the latter. I left the church a long time ago and I am, putting it mildly, not a fan to this day, but even I'm not going to claim that every single cardinal thinks that children with gay parents are being abused, and that this is an appropriate opinion to loudly air in public. You are fully entitled to disagree, and my mother would be delighted that for once I'm actually arguing on the church's side!

They may not, but I think it is safe to say, very few if any, are pro gay marriage and gay adoption merely because of the strong anti gay stance the church and their interpretation of scripture takes.
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At no point during this entire exchange have I claimed anybody senior in the church is pro-gay. I haven't even claimed that they're neutral on the issue. They are all various flavors of anti-gay. I have been at pains to point this out throughout this conversation.

But you are merely focusing on one fight, all of them are going to be largely anti-gay ( Again its the Catholic Church, what do you expect, as I said in my first statement, the Pope IS Catholic ), so why not look at the things that actually differentiate them, such as this Pope's work on the poor, or his very traditional means in that he rejects alot of the perks of his position.
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We're talking about this because this is the conversation we're having. And we're having this conversation because, out of my original post, this is the bone you chose to pick. As I said way back at the start of this conversation, he is good in other areas - streets ahead of Benedict, at least, and apparently a lot better at talking to people to boot. Unfortunately out of all of the South American candidates they picked the one who's probably least enamored of Liberation Theology, but he's unlikely to have the visceral loathing of it that JPII had (and let's please not have an argument about that as well; I'm sure we disagree about that too and I'm content for it to remain so).
 
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