What counts as part of the game-canon?

[The Outrage]

Nobody can ever seem to agree with this. Either Colo/XD is part of the canon, or it isn't. Ranger is part of the main canon or it's its own entity, now things like Trozei get wacky.

For the purposes of what I think constitutes as game-canon to the main series, its basically anything that can communicate with the games and doesn't contradict it:

Main Canon Timeline

Spoiler

So we know that the first game in the series is RBY, which is remade into FrLg. For the purpose of my canon-arguments I will consider remakes as the same continuity as their originals. Anyway, they were followed by GSC and HgSs chronologically.

FrLg-->HgSs

Now people have argued extensively and I sort of agree that RSE occurs contemporaneous with FrLg, however I see it occurring during its Sevii Island part of the plot as that is the only time FrLg can start communicating with the other Gen III games due to Network issues while Emerald has been allowed to communicate at any time, leading me to believe the events of RSE occur anytime after the network issues have been fixed.

(FrLg-RSE)

Further evidence suggests that DPPt and HgSs are also contemporary, where DPPt events start between the Lake of Rage and your visit to Celadon (as Jasmine has not made her decision to go to Sinnoh until you get Erika's number).

(HgSs-DPPt)

Now rumours from the same batch that have all proven true so far claims that Galactic admins appear in Team Plasma. Yeah, it could actually still take place in the past during their pre-galactic days, but since it doesn't really matter, I'll place BW ahead of (HgSs-DPPt) giving us the current main-series timeline...

(FrLg-RSE)-3 years->(HgSs-DPPt)-???->BW

Now why am I discussing the timeline? Well it's a bit important for later

How Orre fits in

Spoiler

So there's a lot of dispute over whether Colo/XD is actually canon. The only real argument against it is that its made by people other than Game freak, however it communicates with the main series games, so I consider it canon.

Other arguments is that it throws the fanon timeline in a loop. Colosseum and XD take place five years apart:

Colo-5 years->XD

Now, the problem arises in that both games can communicate with RSE and FrLg as if they were segregating gameplay and story! Impossible as no other series that has established a timeline existed has ever done anything to contradict and confuse tiself *coughZeldacough*

Sarcastic coughing aside, my whole discussion of the timeline earlier in the post was to show that while trade-mechanics may have played a role in it, that there was an in-game explanation to place the games where they were. They had a story. As far as I've heard, there is no attempt to rectify this in the Orre games. Does that mean its not canon? No. It just means fans have to get that concept outlines in the above link through their heads.

Ranger Series

Spoiler

Again, considering canon for the purposes that it communicates with the games. Not only that, but both the RSE main legends and DPPt main legends appear in Ranger 1 and Ranger 2 respectively, both injured as if they were through some big battle earlier, which we know they were (this is under the assumption that its the same guys).

The ranger series doesn't really contradict anything else in the main series, and it communicates with them, why can't it be part of the main canon?

PMD Series

Spoiler

Now these guys, they're just an alternate universe. I still consider them part of the game-canon, but in one of the alternate universes in a greater Multiverse held together by Unown

 

[Silktree]

Again, considering canon for the purposes that it communicates with the games.

In an obvious attempt to make the games more lucrative to main series players for gameplay-related reasons. If they were compatible in any deep sense, the data wouldn't be transferred in only one direction.

After the first Ranger game, Hal Laboratory didn't even bother to reference the other regions or explain why it is that captured Pokémon belonged with trainers. Obviously, the first Ranger game was an exception because it was used to advertise Diamond and Pearl.

Not only that, but both the RSE main legends and DPPt main legends appear in Ranger 1 and Ranger 2 respectively, both injured as if they were through some big battle earlier, which we know they were (this is under the assumption that its the same guys).

What battle did Dialga and Palkia have in the main series? Cyrus never had the chance to affect them in any of the games, and he was only going to employ their powers. Are we to assume that Dawn/Lucas wounded those Pokémon by challenging them to a battle? That a protagonist is the cause of the distortions in Almia? I find it hard to believe that was Hal Laboratory's intention.

The ranger series doesn't really contradict anything else in the main series, and it communicates with them, why can't it be part of the main canon?

There are contradictions. Without even reviewing all the references to the legendary Pokémon (which conveniently have nothing to do with the main series' regions), there is a glaringly apparent contradiction in the way Ranger 3 addresses Mewtwo - as a Pokémon created in Oblivia by the Pokémon Pinchers. Are we really to believe that they replicated Mr. Fuji's work when that is not alluded to at all? How could something like that just be overlooked? I can also imagine that the enraged Arceus plot isn't quite compatible with what we know about Arceus in the main series, but I need to examine the dialogue for that.

It seems clear to me that Hal Laboratory do whatever they want with their story without consulting Game Freak or looking too deep into the main series. That makes the Ranger series unfit to be considered as part of the main canon. At the very least, Genius Sonority were modest about the number of legendary Pokémon used in their games, not to mention portraying Ho-Oh and Celebi in a manner faithful to the Johto games.

Now these guys, they're just an alternate universe. I still consider them part of the game-canon, but in one of the alternate universes in a greater Multiverse held together by Unown

I support this theory.

 

[d.aisuke]

There's no evidence yet, but for the Time between FRLG-RSE-> HGSS-DPPt->BW
I believe 7 years.

FRLG-RSE-> +3 years ->HGSS-DPPt + 4 years->BW

Obviously, this can't be confirmed of denied until BW are released.

 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Colo/XD are most likely canon. Ranger, I'm not sure. PMD is an alternate universe obviously.

 

[PDL]

I'd like to imagine that Pokémon Trozei is actually a fictional work within the Pokémon Universe. Sorta like the equvilent of James Bond or Batman in the real world.

The way they're drawn could represent the style that it's drawn in: Cel-shaded and "disproportionate" compared to the usual artstyle that most of the other games follow. The game feels like a comic book, so why not have it as a comic book within the main canon?

What about Snap? The Card Game games? Puzzle League? Pinball? Okay, now these are pretty ridiculous.

 

[Zekurom]

The way they're drawn could represent the style that it's drawn in: Cel-shaded and "disproportionate" compared to the usual artstyle that most of the other games follow. The game feels like a comic book, so why not have it as a comic book within the main canon?

An American comic book, no less. Those characters are reminiscent of Genedy Tartakovsky's style. (Oh God I hope I spelled that right.)

*edit* Nope, it's actually Genndy. One freaking letter. >_>

 

[Azure Butterfly]

Every game is canon, but some of them are in a different world. Main series, Ranger, and C/XD are the true "Pokemon world." Trozei probably takes place in the "Pokemon world" too, because Poke Balls are used, albeit not by the protagonist. The TCG games and maybe Rumble take place in the real world - the only Pokemon are cards or toys. PMD has its own continuity. All of the games with Pikachu as the main character (the console games and Dash), Snap, and Puzzle League exist in the anime universe. All of the other ones could fit into any of the worlds. Pinball games are most likely an actual game in the main 'verse.

 

[spoinkoal]

i would like to think the main games are the central canon and that Snap, Ranger, and Colo/XD are supplements to explore the world more since not everyone is a trainer. that's like the real world where we research animals ala Snap, or try to befriend animals ala Ranger or even destroy tham ala Colo/XD. the others i don't think are canon with the game world since i'd like to think of them as party like games like Mario Party. PMD could take take place in the pokemon world but i's smaller than the ingame maps lead us to believe. the map looks like it's a whole planet but it could just be an archipeligo in there Pacific ocean.

 

[Miar]

We know Johto games are sequels to Kanto games, but I want to consider the Hoenn and Sinnoh games to be on their own since they don't relate to Kanto or Johto. They can just trade with them.

Same for Colosseum and XD since they're in the same place. And even though one is a sequel to the other, both can trade with all the same games.

Isshu is also a standalone region. Given all the modern-day technology (cars and such that don't even exist in the other games), I want to believe that Isshu happens in the future of the Pokémon world.

Ranger and Mystery Dungeon are separate continuities. Stuff in those games are cannon to them, but not to the others. Various missions in Ranger games allow you to transfer Pokémon to Sinnoh or Johto, but to me those are simply bonuses for buying spin-off games. Nice bonuses too.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

I like to think that Puzzle League is in the same canon as Pokemon Live.

Also, Ranch is part of the same canon as the main games, but the only thing it would really affect, plotwise, is that someone canonically catches Mew. Although if you think about it, that's a pretty important background detail.

Regarding Dialga and Palkia being wounded, who said it would be from fighting Cyrus? Don't they fight each other constantly in their own dimension?

 

[The Outrage]

What battle did Dialga and Palkia have in the main series? Cyrus never had the chance to affect them in any of the games, and he was only going to employ their powers. Are we to assume that Dawn/Lucas wounded those Pokémon by challenging them to a battle? That a protagonist is the cause of the distortions in Almia? I find it hard to believe that was Hal Laboratory's intention.

Perhaps not a battle, but forcibly being dragged out of their dimensions through the red chain probably would have done something.

There are contradictions. Without even reviewing all the references to the legendary Pokémon (which conveniently have nothing to do with the main series' regions), there is a glaringly apparent contradiction in the way Ranger 3 addresses Mewtwo - as a Pokémon created in Oblivia by the Pokémon Pinchers. Are we really to believe that they replicated Mr. Fuji's work when that is not alluded to at all? How could something like that just be overlooked? I can also imagine that the enraged Arceus plot isn't quite compatible with what we know about Arceus in the main series, but I need to examine the dialogue for that.

That I can give you, as I have not played Ranger 3 yet. Though do they have to allude to Mr. Fuji even when the main series itself is pretty sketchy about what went on in the original Mewtwo's birth? It's actually not that hard to believe it.

The Arceus thing, yes, perhaps we have something there that contradicts the main series. However there is nothing in the main series to suggest that Arceus is peaceful at all. All we have for that assumption is that it is based on a Qilin, but again that might just go as far as its visual design.

I'm not familiar with the Arceus plot in Ranger 3, but if what contradicts it is the fact it gets angry, then the main series doesn't really contradict it.

That and everything written in the Pokedex and modern knowledge of Legendaries are based on in-game mythologies, but we can probably hand-wave this last point I made.

Colo/XD are most likely canon. Ranger, I'm not sure. PMD is an alternate universe obviously.

I forgot to mention it when typing, but each PMD series seem like alternate universes from each other

I'd like to imagine that Pokémon Trozei is actually a fictional work within the Pokémon Universe. Sorta like the equvilent of James Bond or Batman in the real world.

I could agree with that.

What about Snap? The Card Game games? Puzzle League? Pinball? Okay, now these are pretty ridiculous.

Snap, I can see as being able to fit into game-canon with no problem, but its art style seems obviously adapted from the anime.

The Card game may be just that, card games.

Puzzle League (but if I recalled they starred anime characters so yeah)and Pinball could very well be video games (or actual pinball in the case of the latter) within the game-verse and anime-verse.

EDIT: I should have mentioned this earlier since I don't think it was clear, I meant what fits into the main-series canon, and what canon the other games fit into.

 

[Zekurom]

Puzzle League (but if I recalled they starred anime characters so yeah)and Pinball could very well be video games (or actual pinball in the case of the latter) within the game-verse and anime-verse.

Puzzle Challenge, on the other hand, is entirely game-verse - you play Gold.

As for Trozei... ehh, I don't really think it fits into anything.

 

[Glitchipedia]

Here's my view:

• 1990: Colosseum
• 1995: XD: Gale of Darkness
• 1996: FireRed and LeafGreen/Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald
• 1999: HeartGold and SoulSilver/Diamond, Pearl and Platinum
• 2010: Black and White

Trades between Colosseum/XD and FRLG/RSE are only possible once the main quest in the former is completed. Thus, it can be assumed that years pass during the postgame sandbox, thus placing the GameCube games before the handheld ones.

Red and Green were released in 1996. Gold and Silver were released in 1999. That's a three year gap. The same amount of time that had passed in-universe.

With no information to indicate Isshu's relationship with the other regions at this time, I'm going to assume its story occurs in the present day.

As for the others, I really don't give a damn.

 

[The Outrage]

So back on the timeline, considering that all the Sevii Island events do is confirm that the Hoenn adventures didn't start until after that...

...Steven in HgSs acts as if he's still champion. I just did the Enigma Crystal event and he mentions he's been away from the Hoenn league for too long. That wouldn't matter if he wasn't the active champion himself.

Since the Enigma event doesn't happen until after the game is over RSE could very well be after HgSs.

 

[Silktree]

That I can give you, as I have not played Ranger 3 yet. Though do they have to allude to Mr. Fuji even when the main series itself is pretty sketchy about what went on in the original Mewtwo's birth? It's actually not that hard to believe it.

They have to acknowledge that the Oblivia Mewtwo experiment was inspired by another person's work, or otherwise it comes across as a new take on the story. Fuji's background may be sketchy, but all it takes is leaving the letters "ji" somewhere, as Game Freak did in Emerald.

The Arceus thing, yes, perhaps we have something there that contradicts the main series. However there is nothing in the main series to suggest that Arceus is peaceful at all. All we have for that assumption is that it is based on a Qilin, but again that might just go as far as its visual design.

Arceus' extra mission is very similar to Movie 12 in that Arceus is enraged at humans for a past event, with the Dragon trio trying to pacify it. If that's really your impression of Arceus' relationship with the Dragon trio in the main series, I'm not sure what to say about that.

So back on the timeline, considering that all the Sevii Island events do is confirm that the Hoenn adventures didn't start until after that...

How do they do that? There aren't many references, but Celio does find a way to connect to Lanette's system, which in Emerald is an event that happens after May/Brendan defeats the Elite Four; prior to that point trading with FRLG isn't possible. Even if you use the segregation card, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the Hoenn story necessarily occurred after the Network Machine plot?

I just did the Enigma Crystal event and he mentions he's been away from the Hoenn league for too long. That wouldn't matter if he wasn't the active champion himself.

Why wouldn't it matter? He would presumably have someone (Wallace) replace him regardless of the length of his absence (and he specifically remarks that it was long enough). I don't see any problem with the assumption that he took three years off and was inspired by Ethan/Lyra to test Hoenn's aspiring Champions again.

Since the Enigma event doesn't happen until after the game is over RSE could very well be after HgSs.

That's highly improbable. Groudon and Kyogre were said to have lied dormant in Hoenn for years before being awakened by the respective villain in Emerald; in HGSS they are summoned to the Embedded Tower and are quite awake. Similarly, the Red and Blue Orbs said to have been carefully guarded at Mt. Pyre; in HGSS they have been willingly given to Mr. Pokémon by a friend in Hoenn.

The Embedded Tower event cannot take place before Emerald's climax without seriously messing up the story.

 

[shivafang]

We know Johto games are sequels to Kanto games, but I want to consider the Hoenn and Sinnoh games to be on their own since they don't relate to Kanto or Johto. They can just trade with them.

Timelinewise, Kanto and Hoenn take place at the same time, as is evidenced by the attempts to create a network link to communicate with them in FR/LG. DPPt starts halfway through HGSS because of the news report at the very beginning regarding the Red Gyarados.

That said, I agree with Glichipidea's timeline.

 

[The Outrage]

Timelinewise, Kanto and Hoenn take place at the same time, as is evidenced by the attempts to create a network link to communicate with them in FR/LG. DPPt starts halfway through HGSS because of the news report at the very beginning regarding the Red Gyarados.

The thing with that is the Network machine only means that RSE takes place after the Sevii Island events.

Like Unown Lord mentioned, the Embed Tower event places RSE before HgSs (if they are the same Weather Trio).

All the Red Gyarados documentary does is confirm that DPPt starts after Mahogany Town, it doesn't necessarily mean contemporary. A red Gyarados would be like a Loch Ness monster to them, and since it's not proven fake, people will still search for it long after the initial story.

They have to acknowledge that the Oblivia Mewtwo experiment was inspired by another person's work, or otherwise it comes across as a new take on the story. Fuji's background may be sketchy, but all it takes is leaving the letters "ji" somewhere, as Game Freak did in Emerald.

That's where our opinions differ as I don't think they have to since Team Nappers are bad guys.

Arceus' extra mission is very similar to Movie 12 in that Arceus is enraged at humans for a past event, with the Dragon trio trying to pacify it. If that's really your impression of Arceus' relationship with the Dragon trio in the main series, I'm not sure what to say about that.

That does put a dent in it, but it is canon opinion (or Cynthia's really) that what we know about these guys are just stories made by people, so alternate interpretations on legendaries like this isn't something I'd consider as clinching evidence towards the canon.

How do they do that? There aren't many references, but Celio does find a way to connect to Lanette's system, which in Emerald is an event that happens after May/Brendan defeats the Elite Four; prior to that point trading with FRLG isn't possible. Even if you use the segregation card, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the Hoenn story necessarily occurred after the Network Machine plot?

It's because I thought it was the other way around, that trading was possible pre-E4.

Why wouldn't it matter? He would presumably have someone (Wallace) replace him regardless of the length of his absence (and he specifically remarks that it was long enough). I don't see any problem with the assumption that he took three years off and was inspired by Ethan/Lyra to test Hoenn's aspiring Champions again.

We know that he (or Wallace) were dethroned in their position as active Champion so it shouldn't matter that he was away.

That's highly improbable. Groudon and Kyogre were said to have lied dormant in Hoenn for years before being awakened by the respective villain in Emerald; in HGSS they are summoned to the Embedded Tower and are quite awake. Similarly, the Red and Blue Orbs said to have been carefully guarded at Mt. Pyre; in HGSS they have been willingly given to Mr. Pokémon by a friend in Hoenn.

The Embedded Tower event cannot take place before Emerald's climax without seriously messing up the story.

I think I already agreed with this earlier in the post.

 

[Silktree]

Like Unown Lord mentioned, the Embed Tower event places RSE before HgSs (if they are the same Weather Trio).

Professor Oak has no doubt that they are: "They are KYOGRE and GROUDON--the Pokémon from the Hoenn myth!".

A red Gyarados would be like a Loch Ness monster to them, and since it's not proven fake, people will still search for it long after the initial story.

At the same time, people have been searching for the red Gyarados since even before Ethan/Lyra encountered it; there is a girl at the lake who made a long way just to see it. Considering that Platinum's TV and HGSS' radio are full of reports about rare Pokémon eluding science expeditions, there is no telling if the failure of those teams is a result of the Johto and Sinnoh players having beaten them to the punch; after all, these Pokémon are supposed to be hard to find for anyone but the player. Contrary to popular belief, it is not said in the games that the red Gyarados evolved due to Team Rocket's experiment; that is only stated in regard to the normal Gyarados.

At any rate, the red Gyarados report is no longer broadcast at the beginning of the Sinnoh story in Platinum, but I do agree that the Johto story probably starts a short time before it and ends later (with the Sinjoh Ruins event).

That's where our opinions differ as I don't think they have to since Team Nappers are bad guys.

Villains tend to be very chatty about their accomplishments, with the exception of Giovanni. But since I don't have the translated dialogue, I only know from Dogasu that no reference is made to the main series.

That does put a dent in it, but it is canon opinion (or Cynthia's really) that what we know about these guys are just stories made by people, so alternate interpretations on legendaries like this isn't something I'd consider as clinching evidence towards the canon.

The Ranger series' interpretation of Arceus is that it hasn't been sleeping in the Hall of Origin since it formed the universe. To say nothing of the myths, what about the fact that Arceus overlooks the Spear Pillar event without doing a thing? Are we really to believe that it is indifferent to Cyrus' ambition to replace the universe with a creation of his own, and yet it is aggravated by a mere happenstance involving Purple Eye?

Both Movie 12 and the extra mission are just attempts to incorporate Arceus and the Dragon trio into the same event without bringing creationism into it. The Sinjoh Ruins event proves that Arceus did create the Dragon trio (albeit with Unown's help) - it isn't just a myth that is open to interpretation (although it is clear that that the Sinnoh myth doesn't tell the whole story about the creation of the universe).

In general, don't you find it bothersome that the villain teams in the Ranger series are involved with so many legendary Pokémon, always knowing exactly where to find them? Team Magma is only on the lookout for Groudon, as is Team Aqua for Kyogre; Team Galactic gain hold of the Lake trio, with the Dragon trio appearing as a chain reaction. In the Ranger series, nearly everything has to do with villains because there is practically nothing else in the way of advancing the plot. That is also true of the Orre series, but at least the number of legendaries is modest; Cipher caught the legendary beasts and turned them into Shadow Pokémon, and having failed the original plan, they did the same thing five years later with the legendary birds and Lugia (which was turned into XD001). I find that much more believable than a total of 20 legendaries making their way to the small region that is Oblivia (with Fiore and Almia not being much better with counts of 13 and 12, respectively).

We know that he (or Wallace) were dethroned in their position as active Champion so it shouldn't matter that he was away.

Steven wasn't dethroned in Emerald, though. Quoting Wallace from the Cave of Origin: "I was once the Gym Leader of Sootopolis , but something came up. So now I've entrusted my mentor Juan with the Gym's operation." It is clear from this that Wallace didn't defeat Steven.

Steven is a hypocrite, though, since May/Brendan did defeat him in an unofficial battle at Meteor Falls. However, even Cynthia stays the Champion after losing to Dawn/Lucas, as evidenced by not only the rematch but also the second Sinjoh Ruins event (where she is said to have returned to Sinnoh, still being the Champion). I sincerely hope that by the time we see Hoenn next, Wally will have taught Steven a much-deserved lesson for his arrogance; the Emerald retcon really didn't do any favors to his personality.