What made DP so good?

[Sneazy Sneasel]

Since DP is considered by most the be the best saga in the anime, explain to me the reason why.

 

[Garren]

They seemed to be interested in telling a continuous story. There were lots of little plotlines that flowed throughout the show, they showed Ash and Dawn practicing and using what they learned in later fights, Ash seemed to actually act like a person who journeyed through multiple Regions, and there were lots of episodes with little plot points being brought up, even if the episode was otherwise a filler. The Battles were also a step-up in pretty much every way. It was just a really fun show I liked to watch and I was actually interested in where the characters were going.

The only real problems with it in my opinion was its length, although that's because there was such a big gap between DP and BW, especially near the end where HG/SS came out and they made a lot of sort-of-awkward promotional episodes, and Brock had sort of worn-out-his-welcome, but otherwise it's a very solid series. I feel like the writers actually were trying since probably the Original Series to actually add some depth to a show that's undeniably a toy show, and for most part they did pretty well, which only made the sting of Best Wishes revamp to hurt even more.

I still think there's reason enough to say the OG wins out for some people, probably due to having a bit more light-heartedness and better pacing, but for those wanting the show to evolve a bit and get a bit more "dramatic", DP sort of scratched that itch. I don't think there's a way to really capture the style of the OG, as Best Wishes showed, since it's impossible to capture the same magic of a fresh new show like they did in the 90s, so I think the direction was a logical one to go in. I'm hoping that XY follows Diamond and Pearl's example, except in length, and at the moment it appears to be trying to go in that direction, but it's too early to tell if it'll stay that way.

 

[Groudon]

Since DP is considered by most the be the best saga in the anime, explain to me the reason why.

The general fandom's consensus is just the opposite. Also, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some people may have liked the structure of DP or liked Dawn or Paul. They do not have to justify why they thought DP was the best because it all comes down to your personal preferences.

 

[Garren]

Well, I think he's right, maybe not the best, but Diamond and Pearl seems pretty well-regarded among most. Certainly I recall when the show was airing, especially in the first year, reactions towards it were mostly positive, with the only sore points being Brock, and Misty/May fans who hated it for A) Keeping Contests and not bringing back Misty or B) replacing May with Dawn, who I agree wasn't as good, but not bad, more middling.

And then you had people who hated Paul because they took some sort of personal vendetta against him, even though the Ash vs. Paul fights were the highlight of the show, and he really helped move a lot of the show along. He was an asshole, sure, but I definately think he was a good character despite that, or, perhaps, because of that. After all, go into most Rival threads, and people will tell you that asshole rivals like Gary, Silver (in the games), and Harley are more entertaining than dudes like Cameron and *shivers* Tierno. It's nice to have a dude to cheer against.

 

[SlimeStack]

I think from an objective point of view it takes battles more seriously than previous series, is very plot-driven with lots of episodes including filler being connected to each other and gives Ash an equal as a rival that gets a lot of focus and development. Those seem, to me, to be what sets is apart from other series without getting too subjective.

I prefer it when the show is battle-focused, so AG and DP are the top two for me. If XY keeps up the quality it has offered so far it'll dethrone them very quick.

 

[SammyW27]

Well, here's what I like about it:

More plot/story than ever before
Ash at his best as both a character and a trainer
Ash & Dawn training/working for their goals
Pokémon being treated more like characters
Gym Leaders with a lot of depth, personality and above all, presence with *gasp!* ROLES beyond Ash getting their badges and then ceasing to exist
Paul
Kickass battles
A large, rotating roster of recurring characters (and nary a COTD in sight!)
Guest appearances and callbacks galore!
Making good use of game locales and keeping filler towns to a minimum
Badass, hard hitting villains with Team Galactic and *loving sigh* Hunter J :crush:
Mixing in elements from the rest of Gen 4 with the overall story instead of fucking up the plot for promotional purposes (which we can't say about the series before or after)
The Sinnoh Elite 4 actually show up (and had personalities)!
And while this puts me in the minority, I'm cool with Tobias

However, I CAN see why some wouldn't like it. To be fair, here are parts I hated:

Team Rocket :disgust:
Brock was a useless 3rd wheel 99% of the time...
...which extends to Ash-tachii being its dullest ever
The problem with having so much story and game elements? It makes the fillers REALLY pointless :dead:
Many of Dawn's rivals
Storylines that could've/should've been longer, with some stand alone episodes that would've worked better as two-parters (and some multi-parters that could've been an episode longer)

 

[Lillie]

The plots throughout the the series, like the Chimchar plot. That was golden
Ash seeming like he was really skilled.
Dawn and her contest goal, she had the best imo.
Paul and his rivalry with Ash, easily the best rivalry in the anime imo.
The battles were outstanding.
The Pokemon seemed interesting and Ash actually fully evolved both his starters.
The villains like Team Galactic and Hunter J. Team Rocket wasn't that great though, they were the worst here imo.
Cynthia and the Sinnoh elite 4 showing up.

 

[Ben 10]

It wasn't necessarily amazing it just took a right step in how to handle the goals, battles and some of the rivals/antagonists.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

It was NOT My Favorite Saga as it used to be But some of the Battles were Good I thought and Ash for the Most part was Good in Battle but Charter Wise, He was Probably at his Worst I Think because to Me he just seemed like a Battle Machine with some Emotion but NOT as High as it had been in OS, and AG.

 

[G50]

There were a few things that made it really good.

- The league was really done well up until the battle against Tobias. I enjoyed each and every battle, especially when Ash faced Paul.
- The Gym Battles were also done really well, a lot of strategy and difficulty shown. Plus the animation was solid.
- The contests had great creativity, and were enjoyable.
- Enjoyable battles with Ash vs Paul
- That Ash was training his Pokemon, too much throughout the series but it was good that he was taking time to do that.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

I think its abit too overconfident claim to label DP series as considered "the best" by majority. Because when i frequent pokemon sites and various places i often see exact opposite opinion. Some people find DP to be epitome of quality, others say same for AG or OS etc.

In fact opinion over which saga of pokemon was best is widely dispersed and fragmented being solely matter of personal opinion and what in viewers mind can be considered as attracting, interesting and well told strory and what can't.

In general i consider DP series to be overrated being far from my favorite.

I guess there were some interesting points and merits to be given to it.
Such as fantastic rivalry between Ash and Paul containing lot of clash between two different methodology of training, frustration and suspense. Paul as character had some nice underlying intention in wanting to differentiate himself from brother viewing him as failure. Something he wanted to avoid at any cost turning him in difficult and callous person. And whole climax of Ash and Paul battle is right among match with Gary one of my favorite battles of all time.

Villains treatment was also quite decent actually. We had mentally messed up pokemon poacher in form of Hunter J which had no respect or any honor in harming other people and pokemon being solely driven by greed and selfish immoral interests. I only wish we got more background behind what caused her to become such cruel and evil person.

Team Galactic arc was pretty good too dealing with egocentric obsessed with power leader which wanted to subject lake trio and Sinnoh legendary pokemon to its own selfish plans, using his wealth and srrvants as means to come across achievement of his own plans of creating completely different world and universe to its own according. Regardless of harm and negative impact this would reflect on all living creatures and balance of power equilibrium. One of few villains and persons in general which could had possibly died.

Treatment of group pokemon was improved with their personalities coming out on surface more being given better screen time as well some of previous flaws being corrected with writers reducing on number of fillers through various mini arcs like Summer school, tag battle tournament etc

And gym leaders were more fleshed out as characters being properly introduced giving us insight more in their stories along with 4 getting proper debut not being largely ignored like it used to be case before. I especially enjoyed in Candice debut showing to have close bond with one of Dawn main rivals Zoey, appearing quite a few times. Or Roark which had disputes with his father Byron which happened to be one of gym leaders too.

Dawn was alright as character enjoying in her attitude, story arc which resulted with great finish almost winning whole Grand Festival on first attempt and rivals weren't too shabby either(especially Ursula which sadly entered too late leaving more to be desired with her conflict with Dawn).

But this is where positive things stop and cons start.
DP series as whole felt in general pretty predictable and formulaic for my taste from beginning to end. Sinnoh didn't had same amount of emotional drama and creativity like AG and especially OS had lacking that level of unpredictability to keep you in suspense at least imo.

I also felt DP cast was weakest in terms of chemistry than other groups so far. Ill agree how Ash and Dawn had solid friendship and enjoyable enough interacting, but with Brock Dawn felt more like acquaintance rather than real friend. Unlike it was case with May and especially Misty which shared many memorable moments and diverse play of within characterization where they interacted and builded on friendship.

To me in general aside from Ash and Dawn interactions, main cast as whole lacked humor, conflict and vivid dynamic like others had not leaving out impression of friends which grew close to each other with interactions often seeming contrived and generic.

Lot of its highglights weren't something new we haven't seen multiple times already, just being disguised with slightly different background and plot. For example whole issue of Pikachu refusing to evolve in DP, Chimchar being abandoned by trainer , Dawn challenging gym leader were already used plots we saw before with Charmander, when Misty challenged Dorian, when Ash battled lt. Surge etc.

Not to mention i felt both Dawn contest and Ash gym quest ended up dragged down longer than needed with all those training for appeals and perfecting attacks, instead of being used for something more productive like development of more shafted characters like Brock, rivals like Kenny, Nando or Bary killing enjoyment for me becoming bored of it.

If their quests lasted for 3, with 4th year being set in filler type of arc like Bf or Orange islands were i feel series would've been more exciting and unpredictable breaking down established pattern whole saga followed.

Also while i liked Dawn quest and seeing her lose two contests in row having pressure out on herself by Johanna and other high expectations, i still find myself to be able to enjoy more in May quest due to preferring more battle oriented style contests in Ag followed. As well enjoying more in her rivals like Drew and his arrogance pushing May to try harder, malicious Harley who didn't hesitate in using all kid of tricks to sabotage his opponents etc.

Its matter of personal preference really and while i can see why some people would consider DP as their "all time favorite", to me it wasn't not living up to my expectations. It was decent imo, certainly not best.

 

[Covershot]

(warning - VERY long post head!)

For the most part, what I really enjoy is how the Diamond & Pearl anime takes the improvements Advanced Generation made to OS and more or less perfects them. It’s not without its flaws (no saga isn’t), but its benefits vastly outweigh them. For one thing, Ash as a character was simply at his peak. He continued maturing, he trained his Pokemon more than ever before, and his skills as a Trainer in battle were better than they’d ever been. Ash was worth rooting for here, because you really got the impression he was working hard to accomplish his dreams. If there was ever one time Ash deserved to win a League, it would have been in DP. And looking at what would become of the character in Best Wishes, it’s kind of sad that he couldn’t have just won there and ended his story.

A lot of this is of course due to his rivalry with Paul, a character who challenged everything Ash stood for as a Pokemon Trainer. One of the biggest failings of AG was that, while May got interesting rivals in Drew, Harley, and a string of one-shots who challenged her at every Contest, Ash was given nothing but the same Gym badge quest that had been done three times in Kanto, the Orange Islands, and Johto already and was quickly getting stale. As a result, Ash got far less interesting to watch. Paul was the best thing to happen to Ash as a character in the show. He had a personality that made you hate him, and want for Ash to beat him. Paul made Ash sympathetic. Ash losing to him 6-2 at Lake Acuity was the first time I felt real sympathy for the guy in a very long time. And Ash and Infernape’s victory over him at the end of the 3-part Sinnoh League battle between them is perhaps the best single moment this show has ever given. And then there were characters like Reggie, Cynthia, Brandon, and Barry to add more dimensions to it.

And then there’s Chimchar. The post above mine mentions how it’s a repeat of the earlier story given to Charmander, but Charmander’s story lasted for all of one episode. Until evolving into Charmeleon, Charmander never had a character and never had a “story” like Chimchar did. It’s own motivation to prove itself to Paul was highly original for a Pokemon, and was integral to the plot of DP. That Ash was able to bring out Infernape’s strength where Paul failed was one of the biggest validations to his philosophy on Pokemon training, and it’s really hard not to get excited when Blaze activates and Infernape defeats Electivire with it. Ash’s other Pokemon - particularly Buizel and Gliscor - continued to have their character moments, and important parts as well. While the writers could have learned how to balance them better so that Infernape didn’t hog so much of the spotlight, and Torterra could have treated better than it was, Buziel, Pikachu, Staraptor, and Gliscor all had their shining moments. And the team as a whole is Ash’s best, and looks all the better compared to whatever it was Ash was running in Best Wishes.

Dawn’s story, on the other hand, is DP’s biggest weakness. While I enjoyed Dawn herself, and it seemed as she as a character had to go through far more of a struggle than May did for her victories, her rival situation was nowhere near as good. Excepting Ursula and Jessalina, Dawn’s rival range from “decent” (Zoey) and just flat-out boring (Kenny, Nando). It’s the same situation as Ash’s situation in AG, when you don’t have interesting rivals to feud with, the character just suffers. Then again, the actual battles themselves were far improved and Dawn’s Contests even improved on May’s in that they suffered a lot less from cheap, forced wins. I would rank Zoey vs. Nando and Dawn vs. Zoey in the Sinnoh Grand Festival higher than I would for any AG Contest battle, honestly. So even if Dawn’s arc was weaker, especially when there’s the fantastic Ash-Paul rivalry going on at the same time, there were still some improvements there.

And the battles themselves. I really loved how DP brought in more elements of the games, like their increased focus on Pokemon abilities and status effects, to make the battles far more complex and interesting. Off the top of my head I can think of Paul using Light Screen in his full battle against Ash at Lake Acuity, Conway’s Trick Room in the Sinnoh League, Rhydon’s Lightning Rod ability in one of the Hearthome Tag Tournament battles, Paul’s Ursaring with Guts, Paul using Toxic Spikes at the Sinnoh League to poison 5/6 of Ash’s team, Barry with Spikes in his battle with Paul, the many times a character switched Pokemon after they used a move that required recharging, etc. By necessity, Ash and Dawn needed to become far more tactical to win their battles, because this was a world where just about EVERYBODY knew what they were doing. And then there were the special techniques - Ash’s innovating the Counter Shield, the early Spin move, and the Ice Aqua Jet were some of the highlights. I especially love the Counter Shield and I think Ash needs to bring that back sometime. He seems to have found his brain again in the XY anime, so hopefully there.

Diamond & Pearl also makes excellent use of its length for the most part. It had to go on for four years (since the length of the anime is dependent on the games), and yet still somehow feels shorter than the interminable three-year Johto saga. There was so much stuff going on. Ash’s Gym Quest, Ash vs. Paul, Dawn’s Contest storyline, Jessie’s Contest story (!), Team Galactic - which, to this day, holds the distinct honor of being the only “evil team” done right (as opposed to whatever the hell Aqua vs. Magma was supposed to be) - and Hunter J. There were also some fun mini-arcs like the Pokemon Summer Academy, the excellently-done Hearthome City Tag Tournament (this is where I began to really love DP...), the Wallace Cup, the training episodes that had Ash and Dawn actually *gasp* working with their Pokemon, learning their strengths and weaknesses, innovating new tactics that would help them win Gyms and Contests without the necessity of BS like “Thunder Armor” or whatever. Seeing Ash plan ahead for Crasher Wake by choosing Pikachu, Turtwig, and Buizel ahead of time was a nice treat. All the members of the Elite 4, and Cynthia was far better handled than... say, Steven in AG.

I also fail, in response to the post above mine, to see how DP lacked in creativity. I don’t remember any other series doing something as out there as the Evil Togepi episode or that Croagunk Festival. There was even a lot of fun filler with stuff that actually came back later.

As far as DP’s two other big weaknesses go - Brock and Team Rocket - I fail to see how they’re solely a DP problem, and not one of Pokemon as a whole. They’d long gotten stale in Johto and remained so throughout AG. If anything, DP’s handling of the Rockets (who I’ve always liked anyway, at least up until BW truly ruined them) was far better than Johto or AG as Jessie actually had a Contest storyline of her own. I think, of every Pokemon saga, only the XY anime seems to be getting it completely right. TR stays in-character, but they’re not used in every episode. Brock’s general blandness and his one tiresome gag were somewhat alleviated by his best Pokemon by a fairly large margin, Croagunk. Not to mention that he battled more, had a big role in the Galactic storyline, and much of the few focus episodes he DID receive had the purpose of building up to his exit from the series to become a Pokemon Doctor. That’s already more than he ever received in OS or AG.

Gym Leaders became actual characters in their own right, with Ash having to learn how they battled (sometimes he’d watch them first, sometimes he’d battle - and lose - before developing countertactics to use against them) and plan around that to win. I loved Ash’s (and Paul’s) battles with Roark, Gardenia, Maylene (even though I think Ash should have just won here), Wake (the one time Ash is allowed to win a Gym battle without losing a single Pokemon, and Wake still comes off as a threat), Fantina, and Volkner (Infernape learning to control Blaze is one of my favorite moments of the show, and highlights just how far Ash and Infernape have come since the start). The improved battles of the series definitely helped add an air of freshness into a quest that, by the time of DP, was done FIVE times already - Kanto, the OI, Johto, Hoenn, and the Battle Frontier. And because of the training Ash and Dawn were doing beforehand, and all the hard work we get to see them put in, every one of Ash and Dawn’s victories truly felt earned.

And then there’s the Sinnoh League. For as much hype as these episodes always get, I think there are only three Leagues that can truly be called “good” - the Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh Leagues - and IMO the Hoenn one is, frankly, pretty dull thanks to the lack of any good rivals for Ash. Sinnoh, meanwhile, gives us not only Ash vs. Paul - which I believe is the best battle this anime has ever had, or is ever likely to see again - but there’s also Ash vs. Conway, Paul vs. Barry (even though the amount of damage Ursaring took and still continued on with is still ridiculous. Barry’s Empoleon should have at least beaten that) and Ash vs. Tobias, the latter of which managed the task of sending Ash out in one episode, but did so without making him look pathetic in the process (hi, Cameron!). I’ve already mentioned how much I loved the Zoey vs. Nando, and Dawn vs. Zoey battles in the Grand Festivals, but I also really enjoyed Dawn vs. Ursula. AG had better GFs, though, that I’ll admit.

tl;dr version here:

So while I know not everyone agrees DP is the best saga ever, and I can see where some would have problems, I definitely believe it is.

Ash’s continuing character development and his rivalry with Paul makes up for the utter stagnation his character went through in Johto and AG, and his team was at its best. While TR remained overused and Brock remained boring, DP found more to do with them than the previous sagas did (and TR in OS/AG/DP certainly beats out whatever BW TR was supposed to be). The sheer amount of arcs, mini-arcs, two major stories, etc. cut down on the number of filler - and most of these storylines had a solid beginning, middle, and end (as compared to, say, the Magma-Aqua storyline in Advanced Generation). It takes a long, 4-year saga and makes it feel shorter than a previous 3-year one. Gym and Contest battles got better and less reliant on stupid endings, and all the Gym Leaders were actual characters, many of whom had their own challenges and issues to face. And much of the filler DP did have was legitimately fun to watch.

Long story short, I really enjoyed Diamond & Pearl. Easily my favorite in the Pokemon anime by a wide margin.

 

[Neo Blaze]

Reasons why people like DP so much (although it seems to be mainly at this forums) have already been stated up above and I sort of understand why it is loved so much (although I do think it's severely overrated).

But these elements did not make it a good series to me at all TBH. It's easily my least favourite saga.

 

[garrison-san]

DP was by far the best saga because it had Conway. That's more than enough reason for me.

 

[Master Cyrus]

DP was by far the best saga because it had Piplup. That's more than enough reason for me.

 

[Ashs Battle Coach]

I like the show for the battles and the Character development, and DP was outstanding at both. Most of the reasons for liking it have been stated. And I definetely consider it the best saga and the one I go back too most to watch. It had the best league, the best Rival, the best gym battles, the best villains, the best individual pokemon storyline (Chimchar) and the best Ash. It was the most mature the show has ever been which helps. But they're just my opinions. XY so far is reminding me a bit of DP, and could even overshadow it

 

[ii kanji]

As far as I'm concerned, it goes without saying that DP is my favourite saga thus far, for all the reasons quote in Covershot's excellent post! (We'll see if XY can top it ;-) )

But these elements did not make it a good series to me at all TBH. It's easily my least favourite saga.

Why? What is it that you're looking for in a series that is so different from what DP provided? (I'm genuinely interested btw and not trying to be passive-aggressive )

 

[pharaohyami5000]

Why I like Diamond and Pearl:

-Ash and Dawn. It's the 1st and perhaps the only series for now to have 2 main characters given more focus instead of just Ash; I also like that Dawn was not only a companion, but a partner for Ash (viewing their teamwork)
-Tactical training and battles. I appreciate the time they chose to reveal that the trainers are training; show how much perserverance, determination and disciplined they are to reach their goals. Battles grant many variety of tehniques and offensive moves can be used defensively, as well as using every available space as possible
-Villains. Though Team Rocket did wane more over time, I was impressed they were aggressive enough to attack Ash evident in the 3rd episode. Best villains in this series goes to Team Galactic and Hunter J though with them going at us full force showing they are a threat to the world.
-Rivals. Well, Dawn's rivals do need more work with only Zoey and Ursula gave Dawn a run for her money and would like them have more screentime than placing Kenny in (Nando's all right, though agreed he needs a little more). Ash's rivals were great, especially Paul who proved to be the main person to beat due to his strength and intelligence and opposes Ash's method of handling Pokemon. Barry also shows he's no pushover and Conway (only much later in the series) expressed his own method of battles. Nando? Well, as much as he did well in the GF, Sinnou League kinda had him out of the way too quickly (heck, being the 1st person to face Ash predicted this).
-Progression. I felt more invested in this serie's plot. First we got the new companion, Contests, Gyms, small story arcs (tournaments, summer school, festivals [regardless of one promoting HGSS], etc.), training and captures, then they lead to the Grand Festival and Sinnou League, I never got bored of it. 4 years of DP I stayed invested in it, because I felt the series progressed smoothly with only a small number of roadblocks (enjoyable or not).
-Development. We see Ash's intense struggle against Paul; always defeats him and always opposes his training method and Pokemon. Another is Dawn's overconfidence when she got into a long losing streak, resulting in her depressed state. Also, there's Chimchar who did not match the expectations of being a strong Pokemon. Probably more, but I'll note lastly there's Jessie and her contest performances. She's much more disciplined and determined to gain her role as a coordinator compared to last series.
-Characters. Outside of Ash and Dawn, we see Gym Leaders having more depth and screentime and each second was well spent. Elite 4 appearances were appreciated, but only Flint was granted thr most screentime. Also, Cynthia was a great addition to the series, showing us a sample of her strength as Champion. Too bad only Barry's father (forgot his name, sorry) was the only revealed DPP Frontier Brain.

I really wish the 2 clip episodes exclusive to Japan's Diamond and Pearl's list of episodes would be regular episodes instead. Would have really helped say the League and Festival to gain another extra episode.

 

[The Power of Pika]

Pretty much what everyone said that I can't be bothered repeating.

To add to it I found it somewhat nostalgic personally because the friend group worked very similar to the friend groups I hung around with.

Also the series had my favourite Ash and Brock.

I also really enjoyed Dawn and Piplup.

I really liked the Pokemon of DP in general mainly because I really liked the games of 4th gen.

I did get very invested in the storyline with this series aswell.
Plus the dub in particular reminded me of cartoons I watched as a kid for some reason. Something I can't really put my finger on.

Anyway I loved the story and I enjoyed finding things I missed the first time round on rewatches. I personally liked DP right from episode 1 so my thoughts on it haven't changed from when it first aired.^-^

Though everyone has different tastes. I grew up on kids cartoons based on similar concepts Dp touched upon. It was nice seeing a Pokemon series go along those lines for once even if it's still tame compared to what I use to watch.

It's really all about the type of cartoons people like in the end. Some may love DP while others are not so keen on it.

 

[Neo Blaze]

As far as I'm concerned, it goes without saying that DP is my favourite saga thus far, for all the reasons quote in Covershot's excellent post! (We'll see if XY can top it ;-) )

But these elements did not make it a good series to me at all TBH. It's easily my least favourite saga.

Why? What is it that you're looking for in a series that is so different from what DP provided? (I'm genuinely interested btw and not trying to be passive-aggressive )

Because it's pretty obvious that it's all subjective, isn't it? pokemon fan 123's post pretty much reflects my opinions on each different aspect and the saga as a whole as well. My main complaint would be though that I found it to be too serious in nature, where I like a more lighthearted approach. Ash was probably at the best he has ever been so far yet DP Ash is my least favourite incarnation, because he had little personality.