What was the worst aspect of the Groudon/Kyogre episodes?

[Every Breaking Wave]

It's obvious enough that a clear majority of fans in the online community hate the Groudon/Kyogre episodes in Hoenn with a passion. Whenever people talk about the best aspects of Hoenn, a common response is "it's all generally good except for the Groudon/Kyogre eps". When people talk about their least favourite episodes, they are among the most mentioned and seem to rank equal to the mindless amount of Johto fillers. My question is why? Why do you hate them so much? What particular aspect of the two-parter makes you grind your teeth and pop a vein?

I'm not looking for a generic "all of it" response. What parts in particular have made you dislike them so much?

I'll let it be known that I'm also no fan of them, but I would like to know why everyone else seems to utterly despise them.

 

[Cybersai]

I didn't think the episodes was altogether horrible, its just that they were a major disappointment compared to what they should have been.

Groudon and Kyroge didn't even have much of a battle. They only shot like 4 or so attacks at each other and that was about it.

I personally didn't mind Lance appearing, even though some others did. Also Wallace should have been here, like people wanted, but I guess the writers made up for that in DP.

 

[Lethal Carnivine]

I was a bit annoyed by the slightly wasted potential in it. I mean, I was expecting JJM to somehow call Giovaani and tell him about this discovery so he can at least have a chance to bring the Rockets there for some evil action. I was a bit younger then, and not to mention it is a bit unrealistic, but I dreamt.

A bit annoyed at how Team Magma and Team Aqua did not try to reconcile at all, instead just stood there looking at the end results and then just disappearing. Yeah, totally realistic.

And I would have been interested in knowing how exactly did they capture these two Pokemon. A bit annoyed at Pikachu taking up like half of the spotlight from both episodes.

Lastly, it would have been better if not for the poor-ass attempt to make this a three parter by incorporating last episode's blast-off from something that had NOTHING to do with these episodes.

 

[Lil Brother]

The awful animation for the second episode was a big part of it too. I remember Groudon in particular looking too fat and not as cool-looking as it should have been. The worst of it was the "fighting". All it was was an endless stream of boring still shots. :/

My main reason for disliking Lance randomly popping up was because it was shafting so many other characters and storyline possibilities. No Mt. Pyre, no widespread natural disasters, no Sootopolis being in enormous peril, no Rayquaza, no Wallace, no Steven, no apparent reason for the conflict to end, no appearances of Maxie and Archie before the two-parter, very little build-up, no on-screen resolution for Team Magma and Team Aqua, no Matt, no Courtney, the list goes on. But, hey, look! It's Lance and the Red Gyarados! How random and unfitting! You know you have a problem when the games have a deeper, more compelling storyline than the anime does.

I do like Ash's and Pikachu's involvement, though, as well as it continuing from the Muscle Island episode.

 

[Cybersai]

On that note, it always did bug me they completely skipped Mt. Pyre. It would have been awesome seeing Maxie and Archie get the orbs with Ash trying to stop them, but they do it off screen and we don't get to see it.

To be honest there's nothing much to say otherwise, it was what it was, that's all there is to it. At least the arc got a resolution, rather than being forgotten like the GS ball. Ash did stop the teams and Team Rocket found out they dissolved the groups at the end of Hoenn and reported to Giovanni about it in "The Scheme Team."

The only thing we can do now is just hope the climax of Team Galactic is handled a lot better.

 

[GreatLiver]

My biggest gripe about the arc is simply the fact that after it Team Magma and Team Aqua for the most part just disappeared. We saw Brody before the Grand Festival, but aside from that we really didn't see what ever was to become of the teams. There was no resolution and we didn't see Archie or Maxie ever again.

Aside from like the whole deal with the orbs possessing people, the arc itself didn't hugely bother me. It could probably have been a little longer and focused more on Groudon and Kyogre blowing stuff up, but it wasn't all bad, it was just the sudden conclusion of almost everything Team Aqua and Team Magma.

 

[Cybersai]

We actually do find out that the teams break up, as I said, I think it was in the Brody episode before the Grand Festival that TR find out they dissolved as a group.

In "The Scheme Team" (which is the ep Ash battles Agatha at Viridian Gym), Team Rocket report to Giovanni that Team Magma and Aqua are no more.

They did get a resolution, although I'm surprised Archie/Maxie weren't arrested or anything.

 

[GreatLiver]

See but hearing it and seeing it are two completely different things. It would have been nice to see like either Archie or Maxie post break up and what was happening to them. Like how in Platinum Pluto tries to restart Team Galactic, it would have been cool if when we saw Brody he was trying to commandeer a new generation or whatever of team magma saying something about what happened to Maxie.

 

[MetaRobo]

You know you have a problem when the games have a deeper, more compelling storyline than the anime does.

Still, even that story ended with one of the most anticlimactic finishes ever. Seriously, Rayquaza suddenly comes out of the sky and all is automatically well? Deus ex machina, indeed. But I suppose at least it had a resolution.

 

[beast2025]

I hated the very predictable moment where pikachu and the guy whose name I can't be bothered to remember bonded with the orbs! I mean who didn't see that coming?

 

[TheArsenalRisen]

IMHO, you're all silly. I just try to sit down, relax, and enjoy the episodes. The whole "OMGZ that wuz sooo unrealisticz!!!!!111" thing makes me laugh. Big deal. I'm sorry you weren't satisfied. =P But personally, I really liked these episodes. (Hell, as long as the voice acting is realistic, I can pretty much tolerate/enjoy anything they throw at me.) The only time I'd have a problem with something not being realistic, is probably if Groudon suddenly turned into a butterfly and flew off into the horizon... xD Don't know. That's just me. But I loved these episodes. ;3

 

[Cybersai]

Considering Palkia/Dialga are in the movies, I really wonder how the Galactic subplot will end in the anime.

The writers seemed to have taken what they learned with Magma/Aqua so they can make Galactic better, and so far its been pretty good, but I really wonder how it'll end.

I just hope we're not let-down again. I'll keep my expectations low this time, because while the writers seem to get battles, character development and tournaments right, they've never been all that great with villains.

Even in the movies, a lot of the villains have this random change of heart by the end of the movie. Darkrai magically coming back to life at the end of Movie 10 with no explanation whatsoever left me with the same blank stare on my face...wuh?

 

[Every Breaking Wave]

Darkrai came back to life because it was consumed along with the town by the shrinking fabric of the dimension; it didn't die from the attack, it died from being disintegrated by the dimension (hence the reason the blue and violet sparks were shown ripping away from its body in the same way that the town was vanishing).

When Palkia restored Alamos Town to its original state in the Pokemon World, all that had been destroyed by the shrinking space-time dimensional fabric was restored: including Darkrai.

 

[pharaohyami5000]

Yes, which leads me to this question. How do these PKM monsters die, anyway? Faints are self-explanatory but regarding Darkrai's "death" I wonder if they do digitize like that? We haven't known how Latios dies, leaving us only this holy light.

You're correct about the villians, Scott85. I wouldn't expect Hunter J or Galaxy Gang to be affected by the "change of good" since Aqua and Magma Gang stopped their ways after the Groudon and Kyogre incident. Sadly, the 2 didn't seem to be displayed as rivals toward one another like in the games (not sure about the manga). Their fight was short, Pikachu was in control of Groudon (jeez, the hell?) and I didn't see any weather changes.

I didn't think Darkrai was a villian in DP movie 1 at all, regardless of its actions, unless that wasn't what you meant. Yes, its revival was very questionable, just like the GS Ball. For god's sakes, if Johto remembered bringing back Lapras during their later episodes, what is it that's affecting them from resolving unanswered situations?

Ah well. Anime and movies can go to kids while the mangas and games can go to us older kids, although DP has finally been given a much better start like how PKM first produced.


Regarding the topic, the worst aspect, IMO, is Groudon being in control of Pikachu, taking away the 2nd villian's spot. Also the short battle between Groudon and Kyogre. What is it with them firing Hyper Beams and Solar Beams and not displaying Water Spout or Earthquake?

 

[The Jean Genie]

My main reason for disliking Lance randomly popping up was because it was shafting so many other characters and storyline possibilities. No Mt. Pyre, no widespread natural disasters, no Sootopolis being in enormous peril, no Rayquaza, no Wallace, no Steven, no apparent reason for the conflict to end, no appearances of Maxie and Archie before the two-parter, very little build-up, no on-screen resolution for Team Magma and Team Aqua, no Matt, no Courtney, the list goes on. But, hey, look! It's Lance and the Red Gyarados! How random and unfitting! You know you have a problem when the games have a deeper, more compelling storyline than the anime does.

This, exactly.

(sans the Pikachu possession, that pissed me off. If it had been Ash with the Red Orb in him though, that would have been better)

 

[IceWolf762]

Personally I feel as though the Kyogre vs. Groudon battle could have gone on much longer, I was a bit disappointed with it but alas, whats done is done.

 

[FabuVinny]

A slideshow is not a suitable format for portraying an epic battle. That is all.

Lastly, it would have been better if not for the poor-ass attempt to make this a three parter by incorporating last episode's blast-off from something that had NOTHING to do with these episodes.

That wouldn't have been as bad if the episode had actually been used for the arc. The main plot of the episode could stay, just use a few minutes to show them obtaining Kyogre or whatever. Blast-offs don't make good cliffhangers but if we already have some hints to the story, we'll be much more inclined to tune in.

 

[ShadowDeeps]

IMHO, you're all silly. I just try to sit down, relax, and enjoy the episodes. The whole "OMGZ that wuz sooo unrealisticz!!!!!111" thing makes me laugh. Big deal. I'm sorry you weren't satisfied. =P But personally, I really liked these episodes. (Hell, as long as the voice acting is realistic, I can pretty much tolerate/enjoy anything they throw at me.) The only time I'd have a problem with something not being realistic, is probably if Groudon suddenly turned into a butterfly and flew off into the horizon... xD Don't know. That's just me. But I loved these episodes. ;3

I pretty much concur with this. And on reason of that I can enjoy the Kyogre and Groudon episodes immensely - doubt and criticism is a part of all fandom and human nature in general but that doesn't mean that it does more impediment than help to sit down and just enjoy something for what it is. I myself like the Groundon and Kyogre episodes better than most of the Hoenn episodes because they keep in epic suspense and work well enough to break from the formulaic format most episodes tend to follow.

That's my sentiment.

 

[Cybersai]

The main plot of the episode could stay, just use a few minutes to show them obtaining Kyogre or whatever. Blast-offs don't make good cliffhangers but if we already have some hints to the story, we'll be much more inclined to tune in.

The Muscle Island ep was a decent filler, I loved the Grovyle/Pikachu Vs. Walerin/Quagsire battle we got that ep, but it just shouldn't have been connected to Groudon/Kyorge.

A three parter with the first part being about Mt. Pyre would have made these eps a lot better.

 

[Every Breaking Wave]

In reality, Groudon/Kyogre would have probably needed to be a four-parter at the very least to properly show it (if they were to follow the game plot anyways). The first episode for Mt. Pyre, Gaining Groudon would have probably worked well enough as the second (substituting Lance with Steven), a third episode involving their travel to the Sky Pillar to awaken Rayquaza, and then the fourth episode to resolve the conflict and properly disband the teams.

If they'd followed the game plot I really can't imagine it being any shorter than that. Even getting it down to three episodes would have probably made it seem too compressed.