What's Up With the art style and sounds

[Uhane]

It looks so low budget, like something from the early 90s, and the electro energy sounds are an almost direct rip off from Dragon Ball Z

Is it pandering to nostalgia for Japan going back to their early anime days. There are certain parts where you pause the trailer, and Ash or Pikachu or Delia's face are just lines, no more detailed than a smiley. If you put these frames against say even EP001 you;d think the Sun/Moon shots were older.

Also his character seems entirely different, his expressions are really over exagerated (typical of classic japanese anime) like when looking out of the carriage, and he just seems to be goofing about, does he even want to be a Pokemon Master anymore?

 

[Flynn]

They're drawing the characters rounder and less detailed so that they're easier to animate. This is a good video regarding the SM animation:

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBH3IYRjaw

 

[CrystaI]

They're drawing the characters rounder and less detailed so that they're easier to animate. This is a good video regarding the SM animation:

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBH3IYRjaw

I don't quite get the message about the "praise" to the SM saga in that Youtube video. I don't think it really deserved that praise at all.

Yes animation is about "moving", not being statics where characters just stand still and only a single part of their body is moving. In order to judge the quality of an animation one need to play the video and sees the linkage and interconnection of each consecutive illustrations that moves in millisecond speed. When discussing animation, we talks about that linkage and interconnection, rather than the illustrations themselves. And also, I admit that animation industry is no more the early 80's, we now had advanced softwares and hardwares to support and increase the animation production efficiency.
And yes, judging from all the trailers we had so far for SM saga, animation flow very smoothly, characters don't feel like robots because their movements are not inflexible where their body move stiffly. Currently the sceneries are all focused only on the daily lives of the main characters, we still don't know about the battles scenes because that will be the scenes where movements of characters shines, and that shall be the real touchstone of animation quality. That's why, currently we can only judge SM animation quality by comparing daily scenes, but not compare to battle scenes of XY saga nor other animes, or else that will just be an unfair comparison.

But, does that means the anime overall is good just because the movement of the characters, aka animation the linkage and interconnection between each consecutive illustration is good?
I can tell everyone the answer is an obvious very big NO.

The enjoyment of an anime in the eyes of the audience is not coming only from the animation itself. It is a combination of animation, graphic illustration, story plot and background settings, character portrayal, VA and sounds, values, and other factors. Given only one animation department is outstanding, but all the rest are below average, the anime in the overall is still sucks.

Besides, how much does animation aka the action of characters and the interconnection between each consecutive illustration contributes its score towards the overall quality of the anime in the eyes of audience? Well to be fair, when it comes to things regarding on arts and aesthetics, each are subjected to one's subjective opinions, so there is no right nor wrong answer.
But, one need to understand, is that there is a difference between quality of illustration itself and quality of animation. You may have an anime with badly drawn characters that are so out of place, so deformed that is really a "rough" sketch where bodies parts are disproportionated, or illustration line sketch being so simple where it is even drawable by some 3-year-old kiddies, but sceneries still flow very smoothly without any breakage nor stiffness, characters still move flexibly that feels lively not like a robot. On the opposite side, you may have an anime with very beautifully drawn characters so artistic like those drawn by well-known Japanese illustrators (note: not animators), but animation just sucks because characters barely move, or more correctly speaking during the scenes they actually moving, it feels so lifelessly robotic, or as bad as Flash animation where characters "move" by moving the layers, there is barely any animation drawing techniques nor special effects to portray the speediness or powerfulness or cleverness of the characters during their movement.

For me personally, it depends on the genre of the anime. For animes that are action-heavy and battle-heavy, of course I hope the anime studio put more efforts in the animation than the illustration. But for animes that are more focused on the characters, I will hope for better illustration quality, because the facial expression of the characters shall be the main focus.

Pokemon SM series, in the eyes of the professional animators they say it is good because animation flow smoothly. But we are audience not professional animators, we judge the goodness and badness of an anime not purely from animation perspective. In the eyes of an audience watching this on TV screen, what will be the first thing that catches your attention? What is the factors that drives you off or attracts you into this anime?

Using the words of professional animators, and especially going deeply into explaining the difficulties about the making of anime, is IMO the worst assertion in claiming an anime is good, because that "goodness" in the eyes of animators is just not the same kind of "goodness" in the eyes of audience.

 

[Keshav]

They would have rather just made XY animation and artwork even better to suit their demands. But that's not the thing here, actually they have a low budget since the ratings are going down so they had to cut bit somewhere and here it is.
The artwork isn't bad but you wouldn't expect it after how good it was in XY. The details are gone now.
That is what people are actually complaining about, it's not the artwork but it's the artwork after the XY series. If this was a new show, no one would have even given a heck about the artwork.

 

[Jaye]

I don't quite get the message about the "praise" to the SM saga in that Youtube video. I don't think it really deserved that praise at all.

He's not praising it as such. He's pointing out, correctly, that claims that the animation in Sun and Moon was poor were incorrect, and that pausing shots to show off dodgy frames is not a fair means of critiquing the visuals of the show. He was arguing against the ignorance of critics.

But, does that means the anime overall is good just because the movement of the characters, aka animation the linkage and interconnection between each consecutive illustration is good?
I can tell everyone the answer is an obvious very big NO.

That wasn't his point though. He doesn't say that Sun and Moon is going to be great, just that its animation is going to be great.

Besides, how much does animation aka the action of characters and the interconnection between each consecutive illustration contributes its score towards the overall quality of the anime in the eyes of audience? Well to be fair, when it comes to things regarding on arts and aesthetics, each are subjected to one's subjective opinions, so there is no right nor wrong answer.
But, one need to understand, is that there is a difference between quality of illustration itself and quality of animation. You may have an anime with badly drawn characters that are so out of place, so deformed that is really a "rough" sketch where bodies parts are disproportionated, or illustration line sketch being so simple where it is even drawable by some 3-year-old kiddies, but sceneries still flow very smoothly without any breakage nor stiffness, characters still move flexibly that feels lively not like a robot. On the opposite side, you may have an anime with very beautifully drawn characters so artistic like those drawn by well-known Japanese illustrators (note: not animators), but animation just sucks because characters barely move, or more correctly speaking during the scenes they actually moving, it feels so lifelessly robotic, or as bad as Flash animation where characters "move" by moving the layers, there is barely any animation drawing techniques nor special effects to portray the speediness or powerfulness or cleverness of the characters during their movement.

He actually acknowledged this as well, granted in a somewhat snippy way. Right at the end he acknowledged that there are those who prefer on model and good looking illustrations that don't really move a lot but they're nice to look at. He didn't agree with that but he at least acknowledged it was a thing.

Pokemon SM series, in the eyes of the professional animators they say it is good because animation flow smoothly. But we are audience not professional animators, we judge the goodness and badness of an anime not purely from animation perspective. In the eyes of an audience watching this on TV screen, what will be the first thing that catches your attention? What is the factors that drives you off or attracts you into this anime?

Is the animation and visuals not one of the first things that catches people's attention, though? I agree that there's a lot more to the quality of anime than just how it looks and moves but animation quality is undeniably one of the factors that attract, or repel, people from a show.

When these previews came out, several people automatically assumed the show would be bad because they thought it looked bad and that the animation was bad. You only need to look here or on Serebii or any number of Youtube critics for evidence that directly contradicts your claim that the audience looks beyond animation.

Using the words of professional animators, and especially going deeply into explaining the difficulties about the making of anime, is IMO the worst assertion in claiming an anime is good, because that "goodness" in the eyes of animators is just not the same kind of "goodness" in the eyes of audience.

He used the quotes purely in relation to the animation of Sun and Moon, not for its overall quality.

I actually don't disagree with most of what you posted but I feel you've misinterpreted the video's purpose. It wasn't to claim that Sun and Moon will be great because of it's animation, but to clear up the misconception that its animation was bad.

They would have rather just made XY animation and artwork even better to suit their demands. But that's not the thing here, actually they have a low budget since the ratings are going down so they had to cut bit somewhere and here it is.

It's nothing to do with budget. The only way budget effects animation quality is when its not large enough to hire the right talent to work on the show, but the people who worked on XY will be the same working on Sun and Moon.

 

[Cresselia92]

I personally don't get that whole art shift at all. I mean, I personally found the various characters expressive enough as is, so I don't feel there was truly a need to shift the artstyle in such way.

Honestly, it feels more to me like an effort to reduce the workload in general rather than only making the characters more expressive. After all, less shading and more round lines mean less work animating stuff. In fact it's easier to animate a sphere than it is to animate a cube, and design errors done on rounder shapes are easier to hide than errors in sharper shapes.

However, even if I'm not a fan of this new style and I would have rather have seen a progress of the original style (which is something that has been progressing throughout all these years, from OS to XY), it isn't the only thing that worries me about the previews. What truly concerns me it's the overly slapstick-y tone of the show in general, which is quite... off-putting. Sure, the expressions shown may be considered funny by some, but the fact that both the summaries and the previews are giving a lot of importance to the comedic side of the show is a huge red flag to me, since it seems that slapstick will be the "gimmick" of the new saga and may take the spotlight, reducing significantly the time for the more adventurous and serious stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I love comedy and humor, but I surely hope that the show won't go too much into the comedic stuff, or it may risk to turn into one big parody. And this is something that is better to avoid, especially in a show centered around the adventure and the friendship.

 

[Necrozma]

I honestly feel like a lot of the worries and complaints are completely unfounded and just exaggerations.

For example, the latest trailers for SM anime had the same feel as the rest of the anime series - Ash is fighting, using cool moves, meeting Legendary Pokemon, gets new friends, is in a new region for a new adventure and there wasn't that even that much slapstick like the description seems to imply.

I'm quite happy Sun and Moon anime is taking a different route than doing the predictable thing.

 

[CrystaI]

To be fair, I don't even see what is so great about SM animation. Because the kind of animation it had shown so far in the trailers is also already findable in many other anime, especially the animes directed by Hosoda Mamoru.

If I do have to say great animation, it shall be the battle scenes and many other action scenes of pokemons like performance during XY(&Z) saga, where it is really movies qualities every time, possibly much better than many action animes air in evening hours. Not only characters move very smoothly, but the powerfulness and speediness of actions are nicely exuded through the sceneries connections, yet most importantly at the same time characters are drawn nicely proportionated without any lost of finer details, there was no feeling of animators being cutting corners in the line art sketches and colorations and shadings and many other graphic effects.

Cresselia92 basically just said it, SM animation feels more like reducing workloads by cutting corners in the illustration process rather than making characters expressive. If it is unfair to compare to detailedness of XY nor to any other evening animes, how about compare back to OS saga? OS was still the 90's analog animation method where animators need to draw in-between frames line art illustration by bare hands using pencil, so production efficiency is imaginable, and also animation quality is not that flexible compare to using the nowadays modern technology. But still, with such old-fashioned method, did characters on TV screen is less expressive than now? Did pokemon animators in the past unable to draw characters proportionally where they are deformed like Picasso's sketch? Did they make character so round and rubbery-like?

According to the SM trailers so far we had seen up until today, my opinion for the animation is: Animation hence the movement of characters is good, but illustration hence quality of character design and coloration+shading is just out right bad.
When XY(&Z) can do excellent animation with such finely drawn illustrations, I just don't understand why SM received such a decrease in quality in the illustrations. Please understand, animation hence the interconnection and linkage of illustration in each frame is not the problem, it is the quality of those frames itself to be connected together in order to make a video is my main concern.

 

[Necrozma]

To be fair, I don't even see what is so great about SM animation. Because the kind of animation it had shown so far in the trailers is also already findable in many other anime, especially the animes directed by Hosoda Mamoru.

If I do have to say great animation, it shall be the battle scenes and many other action scenes of pokemons like performance during XY(&Z) saga, where it is really movies qualities every time, possibly much better than many action animes air in evening hours. Not only characters move very smoothly, but the powerfulness and speediness of actions are nicely exuded through the sceneries connections, yet most importantly at the same time characters are drawn nicely proportionated without any lost of finer details, there was no feeling of animators being cutting corners in the line art sketches and colorations and shadings and many other graphic effects.

Cresselia92 basically just said it, SM animation feels more like reducing workloads by cutting corners in the illustration process rather than making characters expressive. If it is unfair to compare to detailedness of XY nor to any other evening animes, how about compare back to OS saga? OS was still the 90's analog animation method where animators need to draw in-between frames line art illustration by bare hands using pencil, so production efficiency is imaginable, and also animation quality is not that flexible compare to using the nowadays modern technology. But still, with such old-fashioned method, did characters on TV screen is less expressive than now? Did pokemon animators in the past unable to draw characters proportionally where they are deformed like Picasso's sketch? Did they make character so round and rubbery-like?

According to the SM trailers so far we had seen up until today, my opinion for the animation is: Animation hence the movement of characters is good, but illustration hence quality of character design and coloration+shading is just out right bad.
When XY(&Z) can do excellent animation with such finely drawn illustrations, I just don't understand why SM received such a decrease in quality in the illustrations. Please understand, animation hence the interconnection and linkage of illustration in each frame is not the problem, it is the quality of those frames itself to be connected together in order to make a video is my main concern.

Could you please not speak your opinion as it were an objective fact?

The idea that the "quality decreased" is merely your opinion.

 

[CrystaI]

Could you please not speak your opinion as it were an objective fact?

The idea that the "quality decreased" is merely your opinion.

Yes it is my opinion.
So what? Am I not allow to voice out my opinion?

Or, are you just like to deny every other's opinions not suit to your taste as "inappropriately written because this is your opinion not objective fact?". Where in my post sound like objective facts to you? If I didn't use any words like "IMO", "personally", "I think", then you may say so. But if not, then you don't have the authority the mini-mod me.

 

[Flynn]

I agree that XY's animation looked terrific in battles, but outside of battles and Tripokalons, it was nothing special. SM seems a bit more balanced in that it has fluid animation both inside and outside battles, and this is a show that is constantly making new episodes and barely has any breaks. That's why its impressive.

 

[Jaye]

I can't say much because I just haven't seen enough of Sun and Moon to judge, but talking in terms of expression, the key is the body and not just the face. It's true that from OS to XY the facial expressions haven't changed a great deal, only becoming sharper and better looking as time went on, but on the whole the human characters had a very limited range of movements. For example, if Ash is riding a Pokemon and having fun, at most you'll see him with a happy expression. In comparison, when Ash is riding Sharpedo in those trailers, his feet are kicking out, his head is bobbing up and down with the waves and his hair is being blown back. It's a far more detailed shot.

Another example I can give is that museum scene. He cranes his head up at the skeleton, then when he runs round the corner he jumps in the air with his arms and legs out. Before he might show a similar level of excitement but the emotion will only apply to his face.

Could they have done this with the old style? Quite possibly, yes. I don't have enough knowledge of animation to claim anything either way. However, I will say that it would be an incredibly difficult to task to animate 150 episodes, that are released weekly, in such fine detail. I also recall that one of the animators said, in an interview, that one problem they encountered using the new tech was that characters came out looking too artificial. Hence a move to a style that is easier for them to produce and animate the way they want, without them looking too artificial, makes a lot of sense.

As for the quality of the illustrations, I've always maintained that this is a taste thing and something that can't be argued. I can only give an opinion here. For me, XY did have quality artwork, as far as consistency went. Characters were frequently on model. However, and this is a problem I've had with the show for a long time, it's human characters lacked diversity in their designs beyond clothes and hairstyle. Characters tend to have the same face shape, the same eye shape and the same body type. They all carry themselves in the same way. Their posture is often the same. It remains to be seen if Sun and Moon will fix this, but then, already we can kinda see Ash has a different face to Sophocles, Kiawe and James (just to list some male characters); that although Ash and Sophocles may be comparable in age, Sophocles is shorter than he is. It's small details but the sort of this that makes a cast more interesting to look at.

 

[JacobYBM]

XY only had about four regular good animators: Iwane, Fujii, Nishiya and Oohashi. They have all confirmed via social media that they are working on SM. Expect to see some more incredible battles.

 

[Shadao]

Perhaps it's time for me to lay down my two cents.

Taking time to consider the The Canipa Effect's video on the Sun & Moon, I do agree that the animation and art style has great potential. Even before hearing about the praises from professional animators and analysts, I found there's a certain charm that the setting could provide that I haven't seen in a long time. But my major criticism has still remain same in spite of this. And that is because the issue at hand is Ash Ketchum (Satoshi) himself. And if one were to look closely at the animation complaints from fans, it's primarily targeting Ash and his redesign.

Now change is often a good thing and it's quite to see a new art style approach for every new installment of the franchise to give it both a unique identity as well as a fresh update of the series overall. The Legend of Zelda franchise is a testament that ever since The Wind Waker. Wind Waker has a certain charm and liveliness that the art style of Ocarina of Time didn't quite have and it certainly used it to its advantage of its oceanic setting and dark backstory that is slowly uncovered. But its key to success in my opinion is the fact that The Wind Waker established itself as a distant sequel to the Ocarina of Time, with a gap that spanned for hundred of years, enough time for the previous installment to be a legend of some sort. This gave Toon Link a chance to stand on his own in spite of the multitude criticisms that Zelda fans hurl at him initially at his debut, and eventually he became an iconic character by his own right.

And that's the main issue with Ash of the Alola Region. On his own with no comparisons to his past designs, he pretty much fine with generic being the worst I could describe him. He's goofy and sometimes look childish, but he does have that kid-like spirit that you come to find in all Pokémon trainers. It's only when you compare his design to XYZ Ash all the way down to the OS Ash that it suddenly starts to look bad. Not simply because of how less detailed the new design of Ash is, but also to the head-scratching inconsistency of Ash's character path and arc. In other words, we are suppose to expect SM Ash to be the exact same character as OS-XY Ash. Even though Ash has been six regions, mastered many Pokémon and Pokémon battles, and even reached the finals of the Kalos League while also giving every champion-level trainer a run for their money (looking at Diantha in particular). This is a character that clearly has a long experienced career and such experience means that Ash should naturally look older (if not officially older than 10). That's why his XYZ design was so well-received by long-term fans. It looked like an Ash that has been through so much and mastered his profession during these long years. With Sun & Moon, you don't really see that.

I've always argued that the Sun & Moon anime should have used a different protagonist or at least a clear indication that this is a different version of Ash. If they had done so, more people would be a lot more willing to hear the arguments in favor for this new art style and maybe even give this a chance. As its own thing rather than a continuation of something that long term fans have an attachment to. That's how Transformers Animated got itself a dedicated fanbase and is often looked fondly upon despite having a more cartoonish design. It wasn't trying to be a sequel to the original G1 cartoon other than few tongue-in-cheek nods like the pilot episode. As such, people began to judge it on its own merits rather than the merits of the past aside from storytelling (because story is universal and ultimately makes or breaks the show).

For me personally, I have a pet peeve when it comes to redesigns and revamps are set within the same continuity of the original, but goes contradictory to the original show's designs and aesthetics. One of the most notable examples is the New Batman Adventures, which is essentially the fourth season of Batman: The Animated Series revamped to be more in-tune with Superman: The Animated Series as well as be more easier to animate. The original BTAS series was heavily detailed and well designed model-wised but suffered from a lot of off-model moments and inconsistent animation from various animation studios across the series. When it looks great, like The Mask of the Phantasm, it looks incredibly beautiful to look at. When it doesn't, it looks choppy and inconsistent (Sunrise studio in particular for its "sausage fingers"). TNBA made it more consistent but some character redesigns contradicts what was originally established in the previous series, to the point that some of them are almost unrecognizable. The Joker is the most obvious example, but I am more personally bothered by the Penguin's redesign moreso mainly because I found it to be more generic and uninspiring (despite being more closer to the comic books) compare to his original, more Burton-like design. If I were to accept the more human design of the Penguin as the official canon, it would make the episode "Birds of a Feather" a lot harder for me to imagine happening at all. And that goes with any series that proclaims to be a direct sequel to a previous series, but has such radical designs made the process, like Ben 10: Onmiverse or even Transformers Robots In Disguise (2015).

And Sun & Moon is no exception to that pet peeve. Which is a shame because I feel I could have truly enjoyed it fully as a Pokémon anime series had it not been for the knowledge that the main protagonist Ash Ketchum is the very same Ash from OS-XYZ. It simply makes me wish for the old show to be reboot with all of its original cast back for nostalgia sake. Like I've stated before, this Ash should have been a brand new main character or incarnation unrelated to the original.

 

[JacobYBM]

Continuity is ignored for a reason in this franchise. It makes the work accessible while also playing into the general mainstream nature of the work. Satoshi can be whatever he is needed to be without having to worry about continuity. Satoshi is first and foremost not a character. He's a construct to show off aspects of the games and franchise.

 

[Shadao]

Continuity is ignored for a reason in this franchise. It makes the work accessible while also playing into the general mainstream nature of the work. Satoshi can be whatever he is needed to be without having to worry about continuity. Satoshi is first and foremost not a character. He's a construct to show off aspects of the games and franchise.

If that was the case, it didn't really started until the beginning of Best Wishes. By then, the anime had already established a particularly strong continuity with references stretching back to the OS. More than 10 years worth of it. Familiarity didn't simply rely on Satoshi and Pikachu or even Rocket Gang. It also somewhat relied on Takeshi's long-term stay, with the only thing changing being the Pokégirl.

And 10 years is already too late simply to change people's mind of a stronger continuity. Additionally by this point, fans have experienced playing multiple (and different) player protagonists across the series, none of them being the Trainer Red who has even less character than Satoshi does (and a more blatant construct avatar).

This is not simply a Super Mario scenario, Scooby-Doo scenario or any Looney Tunes scenario here. They at least had a consistent cast family and had no need to put anyone on bus. Pokémon does not. It's been constantly rotating everyone out since Diamond & Pearl except Satoshi & Pikachu (and the Rocket Gang to a lesser extent, but they were in danger of being axed multiple times). And as a result, when more familiar aspects are eroded for the future (his gloves for one instant), a question since the time of AG will constantly grow as well. Namely the question of keeping Ash at all.

 

[JacobYBM]

It is that simple. Just look at XY, which was specifically crafted to avoid mentioning anything from previous series. You can watch it as if you've missed nothing while also only knowing the bare essentials of "Satoshi from Masara Town and his partner, Pikachuu". Satoshi doesn't have other Pokemon, he doesn't have past failures and he doesn't have past conquests outside of the extremely sporadic mentions of them. The last episode of XY & Z will probably have a quick glance at his prior badges. Otherwise, these shows are increasingly tailored to specifically ignore continuity.

 

[Shadao]

It is that simple. Just look at XY, which was specifically crafted to avoid mentioning anything from previous series. You can watch it as if you've missed nothing while also only knowing the bare essentials of "Satoshi from Masara Town and his partner, Pikachuu". Satoshi doesn't have other Pokemon, he doesn't have past failures and he doesn't have past conquests outside of the extremely sporadic mentions of them. The last episode of XY & Z will probably have a quick glance at his prior badges. Otherwise, these shows are increasingly tailored to specifically ignore continuity.

It only worked for XY in my opinion simply because they made Ash a natural ace and inspirer to the show (Which many appreciate as a testament to Ash's past progression). But I feel that can only works once. With a significant constrast between XY and SM, it far more easier for people to notice the lack of continuity and with the advent of social media, easier for kids to dig up the past. And the Ash-Greninja promotion is not likely going to leave people's mind by the time SM.

After all, we are suppose to celebrate all that is Pokémon and how it all comes together. Ignoring continuity is not how you celebrate this anniversary.

 

[ii kanji]

with the advent of social media, easier for kids to dig up the past.

World Wide Web - 1990
Pokemon.com - 1998
YouTube - 2005
Twitter - 2006
Pokemon TV App - Feb 2013
Pocket Monsters XY Anime - Oct 2013

 

[Shadao]

World Wide Web - 1990
Pokemon.com - 1998
YouTube - 2005
Twitter - 2006
Pokemon TV App - Feb 2013
Pocket Monsters XY Anime - Oct 2013

Keep in mind, I said that for the XY anime, it is the only time that a lack of continuity works. Simply because it runs on an unspoken continuity strength: Ash's ace-like status. That and BW made references to the past as well as transitioning Ash from Unova to Kalos.

Additionally, perhaps I should be more clear about what I mean about social media. As time goes on, social media has become a lot faster and more interconnected now than it does in the past. Communities that were once relegated in fan forums have now branched out into more open social communities, and we even have direct commutations with the creators and show runners themselves through Twitter that is virtually unheard a couple years prior. It's only getting easier by the minute.

And perhaps I should make note of ratings decline in XY&Z. The exact circumstances as to why are unknown, but one would note that there has been a drastic drop in attendance (starting around the Korrina Arc) during the XY run moreso than previous series aside from the transition of OS to AG (which was much greater).

Speaking of ratings, does anyone believe that the new artstyle and premise would see them improved (and on a consistent basis no less)?