Which Generation 1 game is the most canon?

[BettyN]

As a writer, the idea of a story being consistent with itself and making sense is very important to me. Nothing bugs me more when I'm watching a TV show or reading a book series and there are blatant continuity errors. Establishing what is and isn't canon is a big deal.

There has been some debate on which game is the "true" version of Generation 1--The paired games or the Third Version? Japanese or International? Which game makes the most sense in the context of Gen 1's direct sequel, Gen 2? All these years later, and there still isn't a full consensus.

So, I ask you, what do you think is the most canon version of Generation 1? Red, Green/Blue, JP Blue, or Yellow?

Try to be objective with your answer. Don't just pick Red because you love Charizard, or pick the Japanese games because you think they're "inherently superior." And, don't cite non-canon adaptations like Adventures or Origins as "evidence," either. Stick to the games and nothing but.

I'm also excluding the remakes for now. The whole discussion about whether or not remakes automatically override originals is another topic for another time.

That being said, you probably already know my answer:

The most canon version of Generation 1's story is undoubtedly Yellow. There's just no getting around Red's canon team. Why else would he have an overleveled Pikachu as his ace if it wasn't his (non-evolving) starter? And, in what other game could you get all three Kanto starters without trading? Based on Snorlax and Espeon, his team was clearly meant to be entirely made up of Gift/Event Pokémon, and Yellow is the only game where all of those Pokémon were given to you.

But, it's more than just Red's team. It's Koga and Erika, as well. Koga's ace was Weezing in Red/Blue, while it was Venomoth in Yellow. Guess which was on his GSC team? (Hint: It was the violet moth.)

Similarly, Erika's ace was Vileplume in Red/Blue, while it was Gloom in Yellow. Her ace was Bellossom in GSC. Bellossom comes from Gloom, not Vileplume. You do the math.

And, it's also worth pointing out that Red and Blue's GSC sprites are direct recolors of their sprites from Yellow. The Yellow sprites also happen to more closely resemble their official art than the Red and Blue sprites.

The only thing in GSC that explicitly points back to Red/Blue instead of Yellow is Blue's team, but even then, it didn't include a starter, so that doesn't mean a whole lot. And, that's just one Red/Blue reference among all of these Yellow references.

Now, as for Jessie and James... Some may ask, "If Yellow's canon, then why weren't they in GSC?" And, to that I say, "So what?" Lorelei and Agatha neither appeared or were referenced in GSC, either. Are they not canon, as well? Three whole years separate Yellow from GSC, so who knows what became of Jessie and James in the time between then? They might have been in a completely different region for all we knew.​

 

[EmpoleonProd]

Between Red/Blue and Yellow, obviously Yellow is the better choice, but tbh I think the remakes (FR/LG and HG/SS) are canonical over the original games. Yes, Red does not start with a Pikachu, but with the extra plot with the Sevii Islands clearing up a lot of debates from GSC that were settled in HG/SS, I don't consider anything from Gen I or Gen II canonical compared to the Gen III and Gen IV remakes, this could change with ORAS, however, as I couldn't ever get over the fact if they're remakes and take place at the same as X and Y, yet we know B2W2 takes place at the same time as X and Y, Gen IV takes place several years prior and we know Gen III takes place three years before Gen IV.

 

[Osprey]

I'm not sure why people think that Red having a high-leveled Pikachu in GSC/HGSS means that Yellow is canon. I think the developers were leaning on a heavy Kanto theme rather than using Yellow as canon, because Pikachu is an over-exposed electric rat who seems to be native to Kanto and the mascot of the franchise in general. And just because a Pokemon is the highest level in an NPC team does not mean they're the trainer's first Pokemon. Yes, it may suggest it, but it doesn't guarantee it.

I think FireRed and LeafGreen can be used as official canon. They're pretty much Game Boy Advance copies of the originals, but ever since they were released, the design used for Red has been his appearance in other games ever since. The Sevii Islands were isolated enough (literally and figuratively) from the main game, so whether they did or didn't exist doesn't really matter.

 

[BettyN]

Between Red/Blue and Yellow, obviously Yellow is the better choice, but tbh I think the remakes (FR/LG and HG/SS) are canonical over the original games. Yes, Red does not start with a Pikachu, but with the extra plot with the Sevii Islands clearing up a lot of debates from GSC that were settled in HG/SS, I don't consider anything from Gen I or Gen II canonical compared to the Gen III and Gen IV remakes, this could change with ORAS, however, as I couldn't ever get over the fact if they're remakes and take place at the same as X and Y, yet we know B2W2 takes place at the same time as X and Y, Gen IV takes place several years prior and we know Gen III takes place three years before Gen IV.

I was going to save this for another thread, but since you brought to up...

I don't think FRLG have replaced Yellow as the canon version of Gen 1. At least, not since HGSS have come out.

Red still has the exact same team (save for Espeon, who is now a Lapras, which doesn't make a bit of a difference), as well as Koga and Erika, all of which make zero sense in the context of FRLG (which incorporated nothing from Yellow).

And, you mention the Sevii Islands, and I have to ask--Which game since FRLG have those islands been seen or even, referenced in? In fact, there isn't a single thing in HGSS (besides Red's outfit) that references FRLG, specifically, over the original games. No Leaf, no Celio, no Sevii Islands, no nothing.

Plus, the rival was still named Blue, even though FRLG had retconned his English name to be Green. And, Cerulean Cave (which wasn't even in the original GSC) was designed to resemble Yellow's layout instead of FRLG's.

As for HGSS and (especially) ORAS, it remains to be seen whether or not they have replaced their respective originals. Usually, I'd say that remakes overwrite originals, but because of HGSS, FRLG is a gigantic exception.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

Between Red/Blue and Yellow, obviously Yellow is the better choice, but tbh I think the remakes (FR/LG and HG/SS) are canonical over the original games. Yes, Red does not start with a Pikachu, but with the extra plot with the Sevii Islands clearing up a lot of debates from GSC that were settled in HG/SS, I don't consider anything from Gen I or Gen II canonical compared to the Gen III and Gen IV remakes, this could change with ORAS, however, as I couldn't ever get over the fact if they're remakes and take place at the same as X and Y, yet we know B2W2 takes place at the same time as X and Y, Gen IV takes place several years prior and we know Gen III takes place three years before Gen IV.

I was going to save this for another thread, but since you brought to up...

I don't think FRLG have replaced Yellow as the canon version of Gen 1. At least, not since HGSS have come out.

Red still has the exact same team (save for Espeon, who is now a Lapras, which doesn't make a bit of a difference), as well as Koga and Erika, all of which make zero sense in the context of FRLG (which incorporated nothing from Yellow).

And, you mention the Sevii Islands, and I have to ask--Which game since FRLG have those islands been seen or even, referenced in? In fact, there isn't a single thing in HGSS (besides Red's outfit) that references FRLG, specifically, over the original games. No Leaf, no Celio, no Sevii Islands, no nothing.

Plus, the rival was still named Blue, even though FRLG had retconned his English name to be Green. And, Cerulean Cave (which wasn't even in the original GSC) was designed to resemble Yellow's layout instead of FRLG's.

As for HGSS and (especially) ORAS, it remains to be seen whether or not they have replaced their respective originals. Usually, I'd say that remakes overwrite originals, but because of HGSS, FRLG is a gigantic exception.

But a Team Rocket Admin makes an appearance in the Sevii Islands plot, where he becomes aware that Giovanni has actually disbanded Team Rocket, swears to find him, and also makes a mention of Giovanni's red-haired son, and it was only speculation that Silver was his son until this mention and the confirmation in HG/SS.

Oh, and the Sevii Islands even explains the absence of Lorelei.

 

[BettyN]

But a Team Rocket Admin makes an appearance in the Sevii Islands plot, where he becomes aware that Giovanni has actually disbanded Team Rocket, swears to find him, and also makes a mention of Giovanni's red-haired son, and it was only speculation that Silver was his son until this mention and the confirmation in HG/SS.

But, where in HGSS were the Sevii Islands mentioned? And, those Rocket Executives didn't even have unique sprites, let alone names, in FRLG.

I'm not saying that they don't exist, mind you, but since nothing about them has even been mentioned in a game since FRLG, it's dubious. It's one thing for a character to disappear like that, but an entire region?

Oh, and the Sevii Islands even explains the absence of Lorelei.

Only in the FRLG postgame. Nothing was ever explicitly stated about why she isn't in HGSS.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

But, where in HGSS were the Sevii Islands mentioned? And, those Rocket Executives didn't even have unique sprites, let alone names, in FRLG.

I'm not saying that they don't exist, mind you, but since nothing about them has even been mentioned in a game since FRLG, it's dubious. It's one thing for a character to disappear like that, but an entire region?

Oh, and the Sevii Islands even explains the absence of Lorelei.

Only in the FRLG postgame. Nothing was ever explicitly stated about why she isn't in HGSS.

Well here's another theory I fished out that I found in the game head canons thread. You seem like the kinda person who would love this.

Here's one for ya, from an old thread I made way back when:

Please feel free to move this if it is in the wrong section.

Ever since the first pair of remakes, FireRed and LeafGreen, were released to the public, it has been believed by many that the original games are no longer considered canonical.

Others believe the reverse—that the originals override remakes any day.

But what if this isn't the case? What if all the games, originals and remakes included, are perfectly canon?

Remember that back in Generation II, Bill managed to master time travel by inventing the Time Capsule. This device allowed then-present-day trainers to trade their Pokémon to the past, and trainers from the past were able to trade to what they considered to be the future.

A generation later, in FireRed and LeafGreen, Bill introduced players to the Sevii Islands, a place not seen in Generation I. However, if the player decided not to go with Bill the first time he asked, then he waited at the Cinnabar Island Pokémon Center...and at his cottage at Cerulean Cape. At the same time.

As far as I know, if spoken to at his cottage, he remains blissfully unaware of his appointment with Celio.

Some would dismiss this as nothing more than a continuity error or programming oversight. But what if it isn't? What if the Bill at the Cinnabar Pokémon Center is actually Bill from the future, having stuffed himself into his Time Capsule and traveled back three years to introduce the Generation II and III Pokémon to the world, long before they're even discovered?

This does raise an issue, however—as the Time Capsule is not present in HeartGold and SoulSilver, had Bill traveled to the past, he would have become trapped there since neither he nor his younger self bothered to invent time travel.

Then again, if Bill were to encounter and befriend a Pokémon with power over time—such as Celebi or Dialga—he wouldn't have to invent artificial time travel in order to return to his own time. Considering that Celebi will take just about anyone who is pure of heart under its wing, this isn't unlikely. And, yes, even though he mucked around with time itself, Bill can still be considered pure of heart since he had nothing but good, scientific intentions in mind.

Using this hypothesis, it can be determined that the original games did happen—Bill just later went back and changed the timeline for the benefit of the scientific community, allowing esteemed Professors like Oak and Birch to catalogue more Pokémon in a shorter amount of time.

On an unrelated note, this also allows Bill—and possibly other characters as well—to witness alternative timelines. For example, if Leaf were born instead of Red, or if Gold had chosen Totodile instead of Cyndaquil, or if all of the protagonists and rivals had different names entirely, thus making all decisions made by the player canonical as well.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the wonderful world of paradoxes.

Yeah, call me a nerd. It's what I am.

*Clap, clap, clap, clap*

I just want to put this genius in the spotlight again.

In any case, it's an easy argument to state that FR/LG might just be RBY but retconned, the same goes for GSC and HG/SS

 

[Boshi234]

How could you be saying that the events from Pokémon Yellow version are the canonical events from Generation 1 while saying that because Red (in the original games he was supposed to be the player) had a Pikachu on level 87 (It's been a long time since the battle at Mt. Silver) it could have been a trade, just like he could have captured a Squirtle, Charmander or a Bulbasaur on different ''special encounter'' or ''fateful encounter'' like the event Pokémon. Anyhow all the games from Generation I should be considered canon since the player character stopped Team Rocket and defeated the Elite Four at the end of his quest to catch all the Pokémon in the world...or the Kanto region.

 

[Champion Red]

I'm gonna have to go with FR/LG. Pikachu being his highest level doesn't automatically mean its his starter, as has been said above. And on the issue of Red having 3 starters, yeah, I know Origins isn't game canon, but its the newest retelling of the Kanto storyline, and Red has been paired with Charizard often (As far as I'm aware the only canon of any form that has Pikachu as his starter is Yellow itself). Also on the subject of Blue missing his starter, and Red having three starters. Similar to what happened in Pokemon Adventures, what if Blue lent Red his Blastoise? And theoretically, Leaf would have Venusaur, and have lent it to Red. Then again, its also perfectly possible he just traded with other trainers to get his starters. There's also the fact that Yellow was specifically intended to be an anime special edition, I'm pretty sure the first name on the preset name list is Ash anyways.

 

[BettyN]

Please feel free to move this if it is in the wrong section.

Ever since the first pair of remakes, FireRed and LeafGreen, were released to the public, it has been believed by many that the original games are no longer considered canonical.

Others believe the reverse—that the originals override remakes any day.

But what if this isn't the case? What if all the games, originals and remakes included, are perfectly canon?

Remember that back in Generation II, Bill managed to master time travel by inventing the Time Capsule. This device allowed then-present-day trainers to trade their Pokémon to the past, and trainers from the past were able to trade to what they considered to be the future.

A generation later, in FireRed and LeafGreen, Bill introduced players to the Sevii Islands, a place not seen in Generation I. However, if the player decided not to go with Bill the first time he asked, then he waited at the Cinnabar Island Pokémon Center...and at his cottage at Cerulean Cape. At the same time.

As far as I know, if spoken to at his cottage, he remains blissfully unaware of his appointment with Celio.

Some would dismiss this as nothing more than a continuity error or programming oversight. But what if it isn't? What if the Bill at the Cinnabar Pokémon Center is actually Bill from the future, having stuffed himself into his Time Capsule and traveled back three years to introduce the Generation II and III Pokémon to the world, long before they're even discovered?

This does raise an issue, however—as the Time Capsule is not present in HeartGold and SoulSilver, had Bill traveled to the past, he would have become trapped there since neither he nor his younger self bothered to invent time travel.

Then again, if Bill were to encounter and befriend a Pokémon with power over time—such as Celebi or Dialga—he wouldn't have to invent artificial time travel in order to return to his own time. Considering that Celebi will take just about anyone who is pure of heart under its wing, this isn't unlikely. And, yes, even though he mucked around with time itself, Bill can still be considered pure of heart since he had nothing but good, scientific intentions in mind.

Using this hypothesis, it can be determined that the original games did happen—Bill just later went back and changed the timeline for the benefit of the scientific community, allowing esteemed Professors like Oak and Birch to catalogue more Pokémon in a shorter amount of time.

On an unrelated note, this also allows Bill—and possibly other characters as well—to witness alternative timelines. For example, if Leaf were born instead of Red, or if Gold had chosen Totodile instead of Cyndaquil, or if all of the protagonists and rivals had different names entirely, thus making all decisions made by the player canonical as well.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the wonderful world of paradoxes.

Very interesting theory. I like it.

Pikachu being his highest level doesn't automatically mean its his starter, as has been said above.

People traditionally tend to raise their starters to higher levels than their other Pokémon.

And on the issue of Red having 3 starters, yeah, I know Origins isn't game canon, but its the newest retelling of the Kanto storyline, and Red has been paired with Charizard often (As far as I'm aware the only canon of any form that has Pikachu as his starter is Yellow itself).

As I said earlier, stick to the games. Origins has zero relevance on the actual games.

And, the non-Pikachu starter Red has been paired the most with, anyways, is Bulbasaur:

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/6f/Sugimori_Starter_artwork.png
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/5/55/Rival_artwork.png

Origins only gave him Charmander because Charizard is "cooler" and more marketable than Venusaur. Same reason Charizard got two Megas while poor Venusaur and Blastoise only got one.

Also on the subject of Blue missing his starter, and Red having three starters. Similar to what happened in Pokemon Adventures, what if Blue lent Red his Blastoise? And theoretically, Leaf would have Venusaur, and have lent it to Red. Then again, its also perfectly possible he just traded with other trainers to get his starters.

One problem with this--Leaf doesn't exist. If you play as Red in FRLG, she's nowhere to be found and vice-versa.

And, the point of Red's canon team was that it was something that could easily be put together without trading (save for sending the Celadon Eevee to GSC to make it an Espeon) or catching any wild Pokémon... Which, for his team, is only possible in Yellow.

There's also the fact that Yellow was specifically intended to be an anime special edition, I'm pretty sure the first name on the preset name list is Ash anyways.

Ash is a default name in Red and Blue, too (player character in Red, rival in Blue):

Red
Ash
Jack

Yellow only replaced the first name with, appropriately, Yellow:

Yellow
Ash
Jack

Yellow took some inspiration from the anime (which was *very* popular at the time), but it was still the games' story, 100%. It wasn't an actual anime adaptation in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Champion Red]

Except for Jesse and James, and the Pikachu that follows you, and all 3 kanto starters, and anime based gym leader teams, and anime based sprites

Also, wasn't the lack of Leaf in HG/SS one of your reasons that FR/LG ISN'T canon? Seems like flawed logic :/

 

[Silktree]

Based on Snorlax and Espeon, his team was clearly meant to be entirely made up of Gift/Event Pokémon

Or rather it was designed to be made up of popular Generation I Pokémon (or evolutions thereof), which may or may not be so due to how they were obtained (Pikachu had been popular even before the anime came along, let alone Yellow). Many people view the starters and Pikachu as references to all four Generation I versions, rather than just Yellow. Quite frankly, none of knows what exactly Game Freak intended, so let's not pretend otherwise.

But, it's more than just Red's team. It's Koga and Erika, as well. Koga's ace was Weezing in Red/Blue, while it was Venomoth in Yellow. Guess which was on his GSC team? (Hint: It was the violet moth.)

Similarly, Erika's ace was Vileplume in Red/Blue, while it was Gloom in Yellow. Her ace was Bellossom in GSC. Bellossom comes from Gloom, not Vileplume. You do the math.

Why would you only mention these examples while leaving out Lt. Surge's Electrode, Koga's Muk and Sabrina's Mr. Mime? These are all Pokémon they owned in RGB (Lt. Surge had a Voltorb) as well as GSC, but not in Yellow. Gym teams only indicate so much considering that there is no reason to assume that a leader uses their entire roster at any given time. Blaine, in particular, only kept his Rapidash for GSC (from any of the Generation I versions) and added Magmar and Magcargo.

The only thing in GSC that explicitly points back to Red/Blue instead of Yellow is Blue's team, but even then, it didn't include a starter, so that doesn't mean a whole lot.

It does mean a whole lot considering that all of his gym Pokémon were from RGB; he used all three of the substitutes for the starters. The only Pokémon carried over from his Yellow team were Alakazam and Exeggutor, which were originally from RGB. It's pretty out there to think that Blue would dump most of his Yellow team for Pokémon which just so happen to have belonged to him in RGB. In contrast, it is not unreasonable to think that Blue might have lended his starter to Red.

I'm not saying that they don't exist, mind you, but since nothing about them has even been mentioned in a game since FRLG, it's dubious. It's one thing for a character to disappear like that, but an entire region?

This logic astounds me. The reason that the Sevii Islands weren't visitable in HGSS is the same reason that Johto wasn't visitable in FRLG - Game Freak didn't give us the opportunity to go there because they had other priorities. It's much easier to bring characters back than it is to re-design an entire region. As for references, they really shouldn't be needed to establish that a region hasn't disappeared. And you're wrong: XY referenced the Resort Gorgeous, which is a location in the vicinity of Chrono Island. It's a shame that there have been no other references so far, but it's silly to think that FRLG are non-canon because of that.

Now let's look at the Yellow elements that have never returned:

* Red's following Pikachu (it was in its Poké Ball in the Johto games)
* Jessie and James
* Nurse Joy and Officer Jenny
* Melanie and Damien
* AJ, Giselle and Joe (they didn't have unique sprites or names in Yellow, but their Pokémon and dialogue gave them away; no such trainers appeared in later games)
* Pikachu's Beach

Does all of this mean that Yellow is necessarily non-canon? No, but it does mean that you should think twice about saying that Leaf or the Sevii Islands are non-canon just because they're currently exclusive to FRLG.

 

[BettyN]

Except for Jesse and James

I already addressed them earlier:

Now, as for Jessie and James... Some may ask, "If Yellow's canon, then why weren't they in GSC?" And, to that I say, "So what?" Lorelei and Agatha neither appeared or were referenced in GSC, either. Are they not canon, as well? Three whole years separate Yellow from GSC, so who knows what became of Jessie and James in the time between then? They might have been in a completely different region for all we knew.

and anime based sprites

Higher quality sprites doesn't necessarily mean "anime-based." Do you really think Golbat was meant to look like this instead of this?

By that logic, every single game made since Yellow has had "anime-based" sprites.

Also, wasn't the lack of Leaf in HG/SS one of your reasons that FR/LG ISN'T canon?

And, every single other thing FRLG added, such as the Sevii Islands or Celio. Why weren't they in HGSS? Why weren't they even REFERENCED in HGSS?

And, why was Cerulean Cave designed to look more like Yellow's instead of FRLG's. And, why didn't Red, Koga, and Erika get their teams redone to better match up with FRLG instead of Yellow? And, why wasn't the Viridian Gym Leader's English name changed to Green?

And, while it's still 100% non-canon and irrelevant to the games, I should also point out that your beloved Origins didn't include anything FRLG added, either.

Why would you only mention these examples while leaving out Lt. Surge's Electrode, Koga's Muk and Sabrina's Mr. Mime? These are all Pokémon they owned in RGB (Lt. Surge had a Voltorb) as well as GSC, but not in Yellow. Gym teams only indicate so much considering that there is no reason to assume that a leader uses their entire roster at any given time. Blaine, in particular, only kept his Rapidash for GSC (from any of the Generation I versions) and added Magmar and Magcargo.

All of the Kanto Gym Leaders added new Pokémon to their rosters in GSC, so that doesn't mean anything.

In contrast, it is not unreasonable to think that Blue might have lended his starter to Red.

That's a stupid explanation, to be frank. Why would Blue, one of the most egotistical people ever, just give away his starter to Red? And, that still doesn't explain the third starter. (No, Leaf does NOT exist, so don't go there.)

* Red's following Pikachu (it was in its Poké Ball in the Johto games)

GSC didn't have following Pokémon. Plus, Pikachu might have learned to accept its Poké Ball.

* Jessie and James

Again, by that logic, Lorelei and Agatha don't exist, either.

* Nurse Joy

The design of every Pokémon Center nurse since Ruby and Sapphire has been based on her.

* Melanie and Damien
* AJ, Giselle and Joe (they didn't have unique sprites or names in Yellow, but their Pokémon and dialogue gave them away; no such trainers appeared in later games)

See my reply about Jessie and James.

* Pikachu's Beach

It was going to return in FRLG:

A map of the interior of an unused house in Routes 19 and 23 has also been found. It is programmed in on both routes and the usage for them is unknown. However, it is possible that the one in Route 19 is related to an originally planned comeback of the Pikachu's Beach minigame from Pokémon Yellow, where its related Summer Beach House (Japanese: うみのいえ Sea House) is located.

(From Bulbapedia)

 

[Silktree]

All of the Kanto Gym Leaders added new Pokémon to their rosters in GSC, so that doesn't mean anything.

Which was my point, dear. You're arbitrarily assuming that Erika's Bellossom and Koga's Venomoth were references to Yellow, when there were plenty of brand new additions as well as Pokémon carried over from RGB. Gym teams shouldn't be used as evidence of anything.

That's a stupid explanation, to be frank. Why would Blue, one of the most egotistical people ever, just give away his starter to Red?

He wasn't egotistical in Generation II, as evidenced by his monologue regarding the Cinnabar eruption. It's called character development, which wasn't delved into but still hinted at. Also, he might have only given Red his starter's offspring, as Shauna does in XY.

And, that still doesn't explain the third starter.

He could have obtained it in any number of ways. The simplest explanation is that he received it as a gift from Professor Oak.

(No, Leaf does NOT exist, so don't go there.)

You mean that she isn't proven to exist in Red's story. The Yellow characters aren't much better.

Again, by that logic, Lorelei and Agatha don't exist, either.

You're the one claiming that characters don't exist just because they haven't been referenced. I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency in your logic.

The bottom line is that Game Freak haven't done a good job at establishing a proper canon. I suggest you deal with it until that changes.

GSC didn't have following Pokémon. Plus, Pikachu might have learned to accept its Poké Ball.

All they needed to do was have a Pikachu sprite stand next to Red; there have been overworld Pokémon since Red and Green. I do agree that Pikachu might have changed its tendencies, but once again you're being very selective when it comes to assumptions.

The design of every Pokémon Center nurse since Ruby and Sapphire has been based on her.

Not really. Pink hair is hardly her only characteristic; only the Yellow nurse was given Joy's dress and signature Chansey. There was a Sinnoh nurse who entered Super Contests with a Chansey, but her name was Casey.

It was going to return in FRLG:

We don't know that, nor does it matter as it's the end result that counts.

And, why was Cerulean Cave designed to look more like Yellow's instead of FRLG's

It looked fairly different from any previous incarnation. It was reconstructed after having collapsed, so it was supposed to look different.

And, why wasn't the Viridian Gym Leader's English name changed to Green?

That's a localization issue. It has no bearing on Game Freak's story.

 

[BettyN]

Yet, another thread has turned into "Betty vs the Rest of the Site." Why didn't I see this coming?

Which was my point, dear. You're arbitrarily assuming that Erika's Bellossom and Koga's Venomoth were references to Yellow, when there were plenty of brand new additions as well as Pokémon carried over from RGB. Gym teams shouldn't be used as evidence of anything.

You can cut the condescension, dear.

Gloom and Venomoth were Erika and Koga's ACES, and the ACE, the highest leveled Pokémon, has ALWAYS been the most important part of an NPC's team.

He wasn't egotistical in Generation II, as evidenced by his monologue regarding the Cinnabar eruption. It's called character development, which wasn't delved into but still hinted at.

Only after you defeated him in his Gym battle.

The simplest explanation is that he received it as a gift from Professor Oak.

Then, why wasn't that ever an event in the games?

You mean that she isn't proven to exist in Red's story. The Yellow characters aren't much better.

The Yellow characters still exist when you play as Red (albeit just in one game). Leaf doesn't.

And, I should note that "Leaf" isn't even an officially-given name for her, to begin with. It was something that fans came up with based on hidden data in FRLG (the same data that referred to the rival as "Terry"). As far as Nintendo/Game Freak is concerned, she has no official name. How can a character exist if they don't have a name?

I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency in your logic.

Why? Does it make you feel better? Do you think you'll win something? Yeah, make Betty look like a big, dumb loser, win a free 3DS!

The bottom line is that Game Freak haven't done a good job at establishing a proper canon. I suggest you deal with it until that changes.

You obviously don't write fanfiction or create fanart.

And, any lingering continuity issues could be easily fixed by, wait for it... A new Generation 1 remake. But, oh, guess who DOESN'T want that? Guess who wants another sequel which would only add EVEN MORE issues to the games' continuity?

Here's little hint--If you're one of those people who only cares about gameplay and (competitive) battling, just go back to doing that and leave the story discussions to those of us who actually care about those things.

Not really. Pink hair is hardly her only characteristic

You don't think this looks like this? Or, this and this?

It looked fairly different from any previous incarnation. It was reconstructed after having collapsed, so it was supposed to look different.

Are you seriously going to stand there and tell me that this map doesn't resemble this one?

That's a localization issue. It has no bearing on Game Freak's story.

FRLG retconned his English name into being Green. Here are his default English names, in order:

Green
Gary
Kaz
Toru

And, I would say that a character's canon name certainly DOES have bearing on a story.

 

[Champion Red]

On the subject of FRLG retconning Blue's name, its still Leader Blue in HGSS

 

[EmpoleonProd]

FRLG retconned his English name into being Green. Here are his default English names, in order:

Green
Gary
Kaz
Toru

And, I would say that a character's canon name certainly DOES have bearing on a story.

I disagree, he's still called Blue in English versions of HG/SS and Green in Japanese versions of HG/SS, so his name is still Blue in English.

And I still think, in the end, any Gen I or FRLG could easily be considered "canon".

I know Red from Origins has little to do with Red in the game, but the possibility of both of them following the same path isn't farfetched at all. Remember, the ENTIRE GOAL of FireRed or LeafGreen is to catch 150 Pokemon. Who managed to do that? Red from Origins. Is it possible Red from the games succeeded in that goal as well? Sure it is. But even so, we only know his story up to completing the Sevii Islands story and rematching the Pokemon League. Who knows what else he did for the next 2ish years?

One thing we can be sure of is that Red's team, in both the GSC and HGSS versions, is based off of Gift Pokemon from Yellow.

But just take my current FireRed playthrough (as you can see in my signature and in the playthrough thread). I'm playing through FireRed as "Red", which I've done before but gave my other FireRed with that profile away to a friend.

Basically, I started with Charmander, caught Pikachu at level 5 in Viridian Forest and imported two level 5 starters from my LeafGreen Version. From there it's easy, catch Snorlax from Route 16 (which he did canonically catch, there are two, one on Route 12 and Route 16, and only the one on Route 12 is left in Johto games). Trade Eevee to Emerald and evolve it to Espeon, and get Lapras.

On a rather unrelated note, has anybody ever thought about playing through a game with only Gift/In-Game Event Pokemon like the idea of Red's character? It's a fun idea I've tossed around with some friends and HG/SS is a very good game to do that in. There's 12 or so Gift/In-Game Event Pokemon. Might be playing through HeartGold here soon.

 

[BettyN]

I disagree, he's still called Blue in English versions of HG/SS and Green in Japanese versions of HG/SS, so his name is still Blue in English.

That's because HGSS contradicts FRLG. Like I've been saying a million times now.

Remember, the ENTIRE GOAL of FireRed or LeafGreen is to catch 150 Pokemon.

Actually, it's to become Champion and catch all 386 Pokémon that existed at the time.

But even so, we only know his story up to completing the Sevii Islands story and rematching the Pokemon League. Who knows what else he did for the next 2ish years?

And, anything that wasn't explicitly spelled out in the games is a headcanon, NOT canon. If you have to guess or theorize about it, then it ain't canon.

One thing we can be sure of is that Red's team, in both the GSC and HGSS versions, is based off of Gift Pokemon from Yellow.

Exactly.

Basically, I started with Charmander, caught Pikachu at level 5 in Viridian Forest and imported two level 5 starters from my LeafGreen Version. From there it's easy, catch Snorlax from Route 16 (which he did canonically catch, there are two, one on Route 12 and Route 16, and only the one on Route 12 is left in Johto games). Trade Eevee to Emerald and evolve it to Espeon, and get Lapras.

Again, the point of Red's canon team was that it was 100% neutral, meaning no Pokémon that you had to trade for or catch in the wild. It was all Gifts and Events.

Again, if they wanted to FRLG to truly replace Yellow as the canon story, then here are some of the Pokémon they could've replaced Red's Pikachu and three starters with:

Gyarados (Magikarp salesman gift)
Aerodactyl (Revived Old Amber)
Togekiss (Water Labyrinth gift--FRLG exclusive)
Mr. Mime (Route 2 trade)
Lickilicky (Route 18 trade)
Jynx (Cerulean trade)
Electrode (Cinnabar trade)
Tangrowth (Cinnabar trade)
Dewgong (Cinnabar trade)

Game Corner Prizes (both versions only):

Alakazam
Clefable
Dragonite
Porygon-Z

See, FRLG had a lot of giftmons/in-game trades that are 100% neutral and don't favor one game or choice over another. They didn't have to give Red his old Yellow-based team.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

That's because HGSS contradicts FRLG. Like I've been saying a million times now.

Remember, the ENTIRE GOAL of FireRed or LeafGreen is to catch 150 Pokemon.

Actually, it's to become Champion and catch all 386 Pokémon that existed at the time.

That doesn't change the similarities between Origins and the games, if either the 150 Pokemon or 386 Pokemon was true, it can be reasonably assumed that Red has any fully-evolved Pokemon on his team or in his PC. And how does HG/SS contradict FR/LG? And since you like to talk about team similarities, here's something to chew on:

Ariana - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

Archer - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

Two un-named Rocket Admins appear in the Sevii Islands plot and have teams that resemble Ariana and Archer, so much so that Bulbapedia put those two fights from FR/LG in the Ariana and Archer pages. Every event mentioned in HG/SS that took place three years prior is based on things that happened in FR/LG. I don't see any logic in saying that HG/SS contradicts FR/LG over a couple of default names and a few of Red's Pokemon.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

Simplest reason it's any option but yellow: His name when you fight him in HG/SS is RED. Not Yellow, or Ash, or any other preset name from yellow. Besides, everyone pretty much agree's that games dont equal anime and vice verca. Yellow being based on anime pretty much says it's anime cannon but not game cannon.