Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire starters?

[HumanDawn]

Throughout the course of the series, "The abandoned Fire-type starter" plot has been rehashed in nearly every saga. Whose plot development and character development was better? Pignite/Chaoboo, Infernape/Goukazaru, or Charizard/Lizardon?

Important Note: Please use this thread to solely discuss their character development and plot development, and not who would win in a battle against each other, their monster design and their capabilities in battles. If anybody wishes to make a thread to discuss those, they could make one in The Contest Hall forums.

 

[Iteru]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Neither of them I could say I was entirely happy with (and we've still got one ongoing) but I will say that overall I think Chaoboo's has been the best.

I remember I used to love Lizardon when I was a kid but looking back I don't think I'd have liked it if I watched at my current age. Being strong just because was never good development and this was pretty much shown in the first Nanako episode. Of course a factor with this is that development wasn't really Kanto's or Johto's strong point; the League where Lizardon caused Satoshi to lose was probably one of the best bits of foreshadowing the saga had (and it was done well in my opinion).

Goukazaru was overdeveloped (probably an illogical term but I'll use it), especially in late DP. I think the amount of development, and the tie to a rival, was really good in the first half. No Pokémon had that much tie to the storyline before and it made you care more about the Pokémon and how it did. This started to become ridiculous however when it went on to start in four gyms and after seemingly mastering its ability to evolve, gets another moment of rage. It was silly and so unnecessary in my opinion, when other Pokémon were fighting for focus when a new capture had arrived on the scene. I really do think we would have seen a non-TR Dodaitoise win if it wasn't for Goukazaru taking wins. The League battle against Shinji especially; what did winning against Tekkanin prove? We already knew Goukazaru was fast.
So personally I rate Goukazaru's plot and development as last. Too much of something isn't a good thing.

With Chaoboo we had its story established early on and we saw plenty of times where its lack of confidence and desire to prove itself was a result of it being abandoned. I think the good thing though was that it didn't literally define the Pokémon and we've had moments (like with Mijumaru) which isn't all about plot or its history. It got a good episode where its abandonment was resolved in an episode against its abandoner and the good thing is that seems to be the last we're seeing of it; it's been resolved and it allows room for others to develop.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

I thought that Infernape was handled the best out of the three. I liked that being abandoned and being emotionally/physically abused had an effect on it since that made it a much more interesting character, as well as even more sympathetic to see how sad and nervous it was. I really liked how the Chimchar storyline became a key aspect to Ash's rivalry with Paul as that made their rivalry stand out even more. I liked how Chimchar became more confident when facing Paul over time. It did get a lot of screentime in the latter half of DP, but I don't think that bothered me too much. I'll have to re-watch the last two seasons to see if I feel different, but I was okay with it. The only thing that I thought was a bit much was when it still had a moment of being out of control with Blaze as an Infernape, but that was probably for dramatic effect and I liked how it highlighted Infernape's relationship with Ash. It also took down a lot of Paul's Pokemon in their league match, but I was okay with that given how much Ash and Infernape wanted to prove themselves to Paul. It might have gotten a bit too much screentime, but I was satisfied with how Infernape was handled overall.

While Charizard is strong and one of my favorite of Ash's Pokemon, it wasn't really handled that well development wise. The effect of being abandoned and nearly dying as a result didn't leave much of an impact on Charizard's character. I also didn't quite like, in retrospect at least, that it stopped listening to Ash after it evolved into Charmeleon. It just seemed too jarring considering how happy it seemed to be with Ash as a Charmander. If it was a result of being abandoned and there was more buildup to it, then maybe it could have been better. Charizard causing Ash to lose the Kanto League seemed fitting due to how he didn't work on it. I also thought that the way it learned to listen to Ash again was handled nicely though.

Pignite would be in second place by default here. I didn't really like that they had yet another abandoned Fire type starter right after Infernape. I would have preferred to see a different backstory for Tepig. Though, it was probably a good decision to not make Tepig all about its past since that would have made it seem more like Chimchar 2.0, but that also made Tepig seem rather boring to me. It's adorable and I liked how disappointed Tepig would look after losing, but I don't think that there was much going on for Tepig personality wise to make its development really stand out for me. I haven't seen the episode where they do run across its first trainer, but I've heard good things about it and I'm impressed that they even brought it up again considering it hadn't been mentioned since Tepig's debut and we didn't even see what the trainer looked like. I still would have preferred that Pignite wasn't another abandoned Pokemon, but at least it isn't handled too similar to either Infernape or Charizard.

 

[DracoMan]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Definitely Infernape's, given how thorough and deep it was. Unlike the other two, whom Ash met after they'd been deep-sixed by their OTs, we got to see Chimchar deal with a full season of Paul's mistreatment (which also added to Paul's character development, so there's an added bonus). Even after Ash salvaged Chimchar from Paul's discard pile, it wasn't champagne wishes and caviar dreams for the little guy, as it took him a while to shed all the emotional baggage, as well it should have. This also added more depth to the Ash/Paul rivalry, as we got to see Ash succeed where Paul failed, and Paul was forced to acknowledge that. (The other two guys, Damian and what's-his-face, were one-shot characters, so we never got any real follow-up from them. At least for Damian I know that; the ep with Tepig's OT hasn't aired here in Amerca yet.)

 

[Caseydia]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

I guess I'll choose Chimchar because we didn't have to wait all the way to Unova for Infernape to gain control of Blaze properly.

Cyndaquil/Quilava was handled very slowly but it wasn't a drama case, so I liked they way it was developed even though I think more could have been done for it especially in Johto.

As far as Tepig goes, I love the little guy. I'm glad it was able to get proper closure from it's old trainer unlike when Paul didn't give Infernape no appologies for what he had done to him in the past.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Cyndaquil/Quilava was handled very slowly but it wasn't a drama case, so I liked they way it was developed even though I think more could have been done for it especially in Johto.

Unlike the other Fire starters Ash has, Cyndaquil didn't have to deal with being abandoned and abused by its first trainer. There was a mean trainer who wanted to catch it though. In terms of development, it was handled decently. I especially liked how Ash did some training with Cyndaquil so that it could learn to attack right away instead of waiting for the flames to warm up. That helped to make it stand out compared to Charizard at the time. There was definitely more that could have been done for Cyndaquil and I still think that it should have evolved after defeating Steelix, but I thought that it was handled relatively well for the most part.

As far as Tepig goes, I love the little guy. I'm glad it was able to get proper closure from it's old trainer unlike when Paul didn't give Infernape no appologies for what he had done to him in the past.

I thought that Infernape had some sense of closure by the end of Ash's match against Paul in the Sinnoh League. Paul didn't apologize, but he said, at least in the original version, that Infernape had gotten stronger, so I think that recognition, along with winning the match, gave Infernape satisfying closure. Paul apologizing for what he did might have been nice, but it probably would have been too out of character for him.

 

[Caseydia]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

No it wouldn't. Paul could have appologized even if it was a crappy appology. Besides, it's to Infernape, not to Ash so I was expecting one but I guess not. However as far as the question goes, Ash's Cyndaquil is my favorite. Charmander/Charmeleon/Charizard is too overrated. Fans really just ruined him for me.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

No it wouldn't. Plau could have appologized even if it was a crappy appology. Besides, it's to Infernape, not to Ash so I was expecting one but I guess not. However as far as the question goes, Ash's Cyndaquil is my favorite. Charmander/Charmeleon/Charizard is too overrated. Fans really just ruined him for me.

I still don't think an apology would have been necessary and I think it would have been out of character for Paul to apologize even to Infernape. I was content with the closure it got during the last battle between Ash and Paul. I can't compare that closure to what happened with Pignite since I haven't seen that episode yet, but it was quite satisfying for me.

 

[Mythicalzoe]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Infernape in fact i have no idea why tepig even evolved since oshawott is a the desperate joe who needs to evolve badly

 

[Misty Calls Masquerain]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Charizard, then Pignite, since they didn't hog the screen from other people, and it was straight to the point and not drawn out.

 

[Madame Pika]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

I never cared for Lizardon. It was back story one episode then no real effect until evolving. I found it unrealistic. It did have the first disobedience arc and some of it's disobedience was funny. It didn't help that it got over 'being weak' very quickly. When it did get over it's disobedience (which wasn't handled that well to be honest) there were some nice bits.

Chaoboo may as well not exist in my opinion. I hated the way that nothing was brought up until the trainer reappeared. The fact that I'd have liked the episode and found it emotional and heart felt, had it had any build up, makes me dislike it even more. Has anything really been mentioned again?

I really want to say Goukazaru but whilst he worked well at first, I agree with people who say he became a little too tied to the Satoshi/Shinji rivalry. The Satoshi/Shinji rivalry didn't need Goukazaru to remind us to it's existence as much as it did (especially not with Jun appearing in the second half of DP). I like how it got a 'getting over being abandoned' episode though.

 

[Sakuraa]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Infernape's was the best in my opinion. We got to watch most of his troubles with Paul and see how miserable he was. Then upon joining Ash we saw him grow out of that sad, mistreated Chimchar into a strong, confident Infernape who eagerly challenged Paul to show of his new strength; eventually defeating him at the Pokémon League.

Charizard was second best to me. We saw him change from a loyal, obedient Charmander into a power obsessed Charmeleon and Charizard. Then we had to watch Ash grow as a trainer in order to earn his respect, thus giving us the loyal, powerful Charizard we know toady.

Pignite's wasn't very good in my opinion. Besides knowing that Shamus left him tied to a pole after losing a battle, his past wasn't even brought up until they actually met him after about 70 episodes. When they did meet him, it was pretty much the same as the other two, specifically Charizard. Shamus loses the battle and sees how strong Pignite had become and wants him to rejoin him, only to get attacked by him when he asks. I do like how Tepig would often get sad after losing, due to how it resulted with Shamus, but besides that he didn't really get as much focus.

 

[Life]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Easily Infernape. After it's debut episode, Charizard never had anything to do with the abandonment issue. The fact that it was disobeying Ash had nothing to do with being abandoned, and as best as I can recall there was never any episode getting into the issue.

Pignite was alright, but it only had two episodes dedicated too the issue, and like Charizard, there was nothing outside these episodes that did anything with being abandoned.

Infernape, on the other hand, was done so much better. It had the best back story of any Pokemon on Ash's team, and its rivalry against Paul's Electivire was really neat. Unlike the other two, it was shown being timid at first towards the rest of the group and it took awhile to adjust to Ash and Co. I didn't feel like it was dragged out at all,

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Infernape by a LONG Shot.

 

[Supreme Leader Palpitoad]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Even if I think it is overpowered I will go with Infernape. Its plot with Paul was alot better than the others plots.

 

[Ambipom666]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Charmander didn't really have an overarching plot, did it? Still, it was pretty nice seeing Ash and co. befriend it.

I loved seeing Chimchar grow into the amazingly powerful Infernape. I think it did a good job of adding spice to Ash and Paul's rivalry. At the end of Ash and Paul's Sinnoh League battle, Infernape is proof that Ash has triumphed over Paul.

Tepig's story is pretty good, but I got that dreadful "been there, done that" feeling. I suppose that's not its fault and just it riding on the heels on Chimchar. I found the battle against its former trainer unsatisfying, mainly because the conclusion is so ridicolous.

 

[Caseydia]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

I'll have to choose infernape because it was shared along with his rival and Ash's characteristics as well. Not only that but I also find it less annoying than some of the other fire types as far as usage.

Charizard has been a walking disaster nostalgic disease ever since it started listening to Ash and then left in Johto. Not only that but back it Kanto there was never a reason on why Charmeleon stopped listening in the first place and then after that it wasn't given any attention to it's problem until way in IS. It was always annoying to me. Not only that but it's loss in the Indigo league still pisses me off.

Pignite is my second favorite. I liked Tepig's ambition and it's move sets. I found it less annoying until "Da". But as far as usage it's okay. At least it didn't evolve all the way to Emboar. Then there would no reason for Charizard or any one else to exist.

Off topics: As far as Cyndaquil goes, I'm not going to touch the subject because it's development is so farfetched.

Torkoal was okay. It got some decent wins it couldn't evolve which was good for his other Hoenn pokemon and it wasn't a glory hog.

 

[Masurao]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Infernape, no contest. Though really, all are the same...it just goes back to how much they are fleshed out.

 

[BugMite]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Infernape, easily. The most time was spent on it of all the three listed, making it the most fleshed out; showed Chimchar's transition to his new trainer, Ash, the most, how different he was from Paul, and how Chimchar could adapt to the way he wanted to act based on his new trainer's methods, making it the most emotional of the three; and overall had the most development of the fire-types - for Infernape and his former owner, Paul, and I'd say even for Ash.

Charizard's was okay, since it was the original, and from which others would follow. But it didn't really have an ongoing storyline for it. Instead, his issue with his former trainer was all resolved within the debut episode. Pignite's story was decent, and unexpected, but just had that "been there, done that" vibe from it, as mentioned. Still, it was nice to have a follow-up and resolution to Pignite's previously unknown trainer that I'm sure no one saw coming. But all the same, Infernape's long-term storyline is what makes it stand out from the rest.

I always felt it was a greatly, and excellently written, expanded version of Charmander's abandonment. Being connected to a main rival rather than a CotD, and Ash's best rival yet, made it all the more memorable.

 

[Pokémon Master Ash]

Re: Whose plot development and character development was better out of the fire start

Infernape's character development was by far the best of all the fire starters. One of the other sharp things about DP's writing besides Paul in my eyes had to be Chimchar's tragic tale, and how Ash was willing to take and raise it as his own. That was one of the coolest and most dramatic (in a good way) things about the DP Series, IMO. It was also awesome to see the very Chimchar Paul callously released kick his ass as an Infernape when Ash decided to raise it with love and care and defeated his Electivire soundly.