Why the Japanese music is replaced

[technickal]

Second Interview with Masamitsu Hidaka - Many Interesting Points! - PokéBeach (July 4th, 2008) « Website News « PokéBeach
(Go to Find in Page and search "background music")

Apparently the American and international dubbers do not have the rights to the Japanese music (especially the lyrical music). The first season was an exception, apparently, since when 4Kids bought the right from The Pokémon Company, they got the rights to all the (instrumental) music that was used in the Kanto saga. When the Kanto/Orange Islands saga ended and Johto began, the music changed as well. So 4Kids ran into some copyright issues. JASRAC, the company that handles music exports from Japan, anime or not, would not let them have the rights to the Johto music without lots of money and paperwork. This also applied to the first three movies, which also used different music. They however reached an agreement for M04 and on, but this apparently expired by M17. 4Kids decided to replace ALL music in Johto and on because it would take too much time to determine if they had the rights or not to play each piece of music. This is something, however, TPCi does, hence the Japanese/dub music combo.

 

[Fabio92]

Uhm... probably yes they don't have the right for use "all" background musics but, i remember in the October preview of the first 2 episodes of Pokémon XY, all the ost was the same of the japanese version :/

 

[froakiefroak]

So when Movie 4 was released they knew that there was gonna be 13 more films coming after it? I don't know about this..

 

[Treacle]

So when Movie 4 was released they knew that there was gonna be 13 more films coming after it? I don't know about this..

They obviously bought the rights to the music for a certain number of years, which has since expired. However, they most likely knew there would be a Pokémon film every year for as long as it remains profitable.

 

[DVDs]

Uhm... probably yes they don't have the right for use "all" background musics but, i remember in the October preview of the first 2 episodes of Pokémon XY, all the ost was the same of the japanese version :/

It's genuinely believed that the English Dub replacement music wasn't fully finished for October, so TPCi was probably granted temporary access to the original music for the sneak preview but had to have the replacement music in place for the actual premiere.

 

[Yoshi1001]

As I've said, music licensing is often complicated and not always logical or consistent.

So when Movie 4 was released they knew that there was gonna be 13 more films coming after it? I don't know about this..

My guess is the contract was renewed once or twice in between.

 

[Ampharos King]

That's odd. I could have sworn that TPCi, as a subsidiary of The Pokemon Company Japan, had the rights to the anime's original score.

And when I get down to it, the "explanation" from the 2008 interview doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Some episodes, such as DP142, DP189, and the first five episodes of BW had the entire Japanese score intact. Why would the dub keep the original score if the people in charge of the dub decided a long time ago that they weren't going to spend the money or file the paperwork needed to secure the original music rights?

 

[Moe]

The wealth of simulcast and disc releases of anime now available with nearly worldwide licensing that keeps music (including lyrical songs) completely in tact would suggest that it isn't the actual issue. The JASRAC thing might explain why there's almost no anime music available on western digital music stores, sales to consumers of the music itself is likely the extent of limitations there.

I'd also suggest speculation from 2008 on how 4kids might have handled something from someone not involved with 4kids would be very unlikely to have an accurate answer.

If every single bit of music was always replaced in all episodes, I might buy that as the explanation, but that isn't the case. It is random - the same bit of music will be replaced in some episodes and not replaced in others. For a recent example, in 'Thawing an Icy Panic' the normal Japanese episode ending music was used, which is normally replaced in the dub, with a piece of music I think is perfectly fitting and sounds fine, but is needlessly different when they clearly have the right and ability to use the normal piece.

 

[technickal]

Uhm... probably yes they don't have the right for use "all" background musics but, i remember in the October preview of the first 2 episodes of Pokémon XY, all the ost was the same of the japanese version :/

What DVDs said.

And when I get down to it, the "explanation" from the 2008 interview doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Some episodes, such as DP142, DP189, and the first five episodes of BW had the entire Japanese score intact.

That's because the entire soundtrack of those episodes are composed of movie music from M04-M16, which TPCi has full rights to.

If every single bit of music was always replaced in all episodes, I might buy that as the explanation, but that isn't the case. It is random - the same bit of music will be replaced in some episodes and not replaced in others. For a recent example, in 'Thawing an Icy Panic' the normal Japanese episode ending music was used, which is normally replaced in the dub, with a piece of music I think is perfectly fitting and sounds fine, but is needlessly different when they clearly have the right and ability to use the normal piece.

I think that since that music used to be replaced in earlier XY episodes and now it isn't, that TPCi bought the rights to that piece of music sometime between when it was last replaced and that episode. If it gets replaced again sometime in the future, then I'm not sure. Maybe the music director for that hypothetical future episode forgets they have the rights to it.

Also, inb4 Dogasu joins in on this.

 

[Moe]

I think that since that music used to be replaced in earlier XY episodes and now it isn't, that TPCi bought the rights to that piece of music sometime between when it was last replaced and that episode. If it gets replaced again sometime in the future, then I'm not sure. Maybe the music director for that hypothetical future episode forgets they have the rights to it.

The very next episode had the dub replacement back in the same spot.

Even if you assume this is a licensing problem - if they are fine with replacing the music, they would have absolutely no reason to attempt to get rights to more pieces of original music - because they already recorded replacements for everything. Otherwise if they wanted to use the original score but couldn't - they wouldn't record their own replacement music, they'd just substitute from the existing music they already worked out licensing for with the movies and older dub seasons, as they worked to arrange the rights to music that's new to XY.

The flaw in the argument is the assumption that there's a logical reason. For all we know someone spins a wheel in the production office to decide which music piece is used.

 

[Yoshi1001]

There's an additional layer of complexity onto all this in that some of the music in the TV show is based on music from the games-I can't imagine that makes things easier.

Part of me also wonders if Pokemon has become a "victim" of its own success-having a wider audience than most anime likely changes the economies of scale and may affect what's logistically and financially viable.

 

[JacobYBM]

It's a royalties issue. Miyazaki Shinji gets paid for when his music is used. The more money that has to be given to Miyazaki--who commands quite a bit of money--the more expensive dubs are to make. Dubs exist to be cheap alternatives to simply making their own programs. It's hard to be cheap when your money is going to one of the people involved in the creation of the episode.

 

[technickal]

There's an additional layer of complexity onto all this in that some of the music in the TV show is based on music from the games-I can't imagine that makes things easier.

Well, I think TPCi already has the rights to it from localizing the games, since I haven't seen it replaced that much.

It's a royalties issue. Miyazaki Shinji gets paid for when his music is used. The more money that has to be given to Miyazaki--who commands quite a bit of money--the more expensive dubs are to make. Dubs exist to be cheap alternatives to simply making their own programs. It's hard to be cheap when your money is going to one of the people involved in the creation of the episode.

So maybe the reason why when it's replaced and when it's not replaced is inconsistent is because they have to play Shinji and JASRAC money every time the music is played; it's not just a one time fee. Kind of like how radio companies here in the west have to pay artists every time their songs are played. Perhaps the dub music director determines whether the original music in each scene is important enough to be kept (and thus, pay Shinji and JASRAC) and if it's not, they replace it.

 

[JacobYBM]

Miyazaki is probably paid by the second. Why pay him money when they can hire a guy for cheap and not have to pay less royalty money--if any at all.

 

[technickal]

Otherwise if they wanted to use the original score but couldn't - they wouldn't record their own replacement music, they'd just substitute from the existing music they already worked out licensing for with the movies and older dub seasons, as they worked to arrange the rights to music that's new to XY.

I remember them doing that in BF and DP.

 

[Yoshi1001]

Well, I think TPCi already has the rights to it from localizing the games, since I haven't seen it replaced that much.

They might have certain rights to the underlying compositions, but not necessarily the resulting arrangements and recordings thereof. The "instant recognition" factor is probably what makes it more valuable and get kept more. Given limited time and financial resources, I'd probably try to secure those first.

 

[Dogasu]

It's not a rights or licensing issue. TPCI could use 100% of the music if they really wanted to. JASDAQ is something that 100% of the companies that release Japanese animation in the West have to do deal with and is therefore not a problem unique to Pokemon.

No, the reason the dub replaces the music is so they can charge royalties for it to foreign markets.

"Pokemon" is a unique case in the world of Japanese animation in that one company owns the rights to the franchise for the entire non-Asia world. As far as I know, FUNimation only owns the rights to One Piece in the U.S. And as far as I know, Viz only owns the rights to Sailor Moon in the U.S. But with Pokemon, TPCI has control over the franchise pretty much worldwide. TPCI produces the English dub in the U.S. and then that English dub is shipped out to other countries in the West for translation / dubbing. It's been this way since the 4Kids days.

The Spanish dubbers never touch the original Japanese version. They have to go through TPCI first.
The French dubbers never touch the original Japanese version. They have to go through TPCI first.
The German dubbers never touch the original Japanese version. They have to go through TPCI first.
The Italian dubbers never touch the original Japanese version. They have to go through TPCI first.
etc.

(Asian countries fall outside TPCI's jurisdiction, for whatever reason, and so the South Korean dub, for example, is based directly off the Japanese version)

Non-English dubs of the show are essentially dubs of the dub. Any changes made to the English version carry over to international versions. If there are script rewrites, paint edits, cuts, and music edits in an episode of the English dub then those all carry over to the Spanish, French, German, Italian, etc. dub.

TPCI basically creates a similar situation with other countries as the one that exists between them and Japan. TPCI has to pay Japan to use its music. Similarly, Spain, France, Germany, Italy, etc. have to pay TPCI to use their music. It's much more lucrative for TPCI to replace Miyazaki Shinji's music (which they have to pay to use anyway) and replace it with Ed Goldfarb's music because then that becomes something they can charge foreign dubbers for. That stream of revenue TPCI recieves from other Western countries would dry up if the original soundtrack was left alone. It's quite a devious little money-making scheme.

The dubbers would never admit this, of course, so over the years they've come up with lots of different reasons for replacing the music. John Loeffler said that he was "...asked by the Pokemon people to make the music a little "hipper" and more modern." The official website for Pokemon the First Movie (an archive of which can be found here) has a quote from Normal Grossfeld of him remarking that "We also rescored the entire movie with all new music that would better reflect what American kids would respond to." This "we think American kids wouldn't respond to the Japanese music" line of thinking was reinforced years later when 4Kids CEO Alfred Kahn responded to a question about the BGM by saying "Only to make it more Western. We westernize it so that children in English-speaking countries will understand it, and to us that is very critical. It's a mixture of the westernization, the trying to make the music appeal to kids who are in the United States."

It's also probably very much a pride thing. Altering the background music is just one more thing the dubbers can do that allows them to put a thumbprint on the show and make it "theirs."

tldr version: TPCI likes making money off other countries, and also because they just feel like it.

 

[Yoshi1001]

No, the reason the dub replaces the music is so they can charge royalties for it to foreign markets.

While it's certainly true that TPCi (or at least somebody) does make money by selling the new music as part of the dub, I think you greatly overestimate the importance of this fact (I'm guessing that it represents a fairly small portion of the overall package) and severely mischaracterize the parties involved in regards to the matter. Is TPCi a business? Absolutely, but the way you use words like "devious" suggests you have a view of the company and its employees that differs greatly from the one I've formed from my interactions with them. If I had to come up with a way of expressing what you said with language that I felt was more a more accurate portrayal of the company, I would say that many (it's difficult for me to say exactly which ones) of the changes are designed to make the show more competitive when negotiating with networks and distributors by:

1. Reducing the amount of work needed by supplying an English dub as the base rather than Japanese (it's probably easier for other Western countries to find people who can take something from English).
2. (possibly-this is conjecture on my part) Reducing the cost to carry the content. Even though somebody does make money on the music created for the dub, the actual price for the network may wind up being lower.

This likely gets (and keeps) the show on in more markets, which is in the best interests of TPCi and the folks in Japan. Does this compromise go too far for some folks' taste? Sure, but I think some of the verbiage being used is unwarranted.

 

[Dogasu]

I'm not going to apologize for calling a spade a spade. What TPCI (and 4Kids before them) is doing is absolutely a money-making scheme, pure and simple. Is it a good one? Sure. Is it one that makes financial sense? Of course. Is it something TPCI absolutely has every right to do? You betcha.

But let's not pretend that what they're doing isn't also really effed up.

 

[JacobYBM]

Yeah, it is possible to call a licensee out on their shit without damning them to Hell outside of their business practices.