Worst Loss In The Pokemon Anime?

[ManUtd22]

It's a tough one between Cameron and Alain for me. Ash vs Cameron was so nonsensical and painful to watch, with stupid decisions being made by both parties throughout. But I didn't have any expectations for it. I figured Ash would go down, but not like this. Honestly this defeat is kinda fitting for how he was handled in BW. He became a moron and lost to a bigger moron.

For me, i will not accept cameron as trainer or for me then he should be in another world or stay with his mother better for him. The pokemon world and the travelling world are not fo someone like him. They want us to feel funny about his moment like going to jhoto for jhoto leauge forgetting one gy.

The worst is that ash is the reason for it losing as he asked Joey for accepting it even if he was late from registration, why why why mister ash. Because he is your friend, it is not your business, even if you asked joey, why she accept why why why? It is not her responsible or it is her business to allow.

Ash if you want to lose then lose but also bianca lost to cameron because of you and your work with cameron.

The match was the wrost and the awful one.

Also the enyire iris episodes and matches are awful

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Paul trained his Pokemon, but he's not the only one who does that:

Paul was shown training his pokemon on multiple occasions throughout the DP series during the day and during night time.What other rival of Ash can you say trained as long and as hard as Paul?

I get that you like Paul, but you seem to have this habit of downplaying the acomplishments of everyone around him

As far as accomplishments go,Ash conquered the Battle Frontier at the time but didn't win a league yet.Pretty much all of the Frontier Brains that Ash defeated Paul could do the same thing.It took Ash 3 tries to defeat Brandon and it was against his weakest Regi.Paul took on all 3 Regis while being constantly switched out and he didn't get to use his strongest team T-E-D-U-M-H for obvious reasons.

Tyson won the Hoenn League but Paul is stronger than the guy who won the Ever Grande Conference at this point.Virgil winning the Unova League doesn't mean much when we know Ash didn't bring his Charizard or other reserves to that league and plus Paul wasn't there otherwise Virgil would've lost.

I'll give you Alain being able to defeat 9 mega evolution trainers in a row plus defeating E4 Malva.

just to make it seem that he's not just the best trainer ever, but literally the only one that's even remotely competent.

Most Skilled Normal Trainers
Paul
XY Ash
DP Ash
Conway
Sawyer
Katie

Paul makes the least amount of mistakes during battle compared to the trainers I named below him,he's still the standard at least for me.This guy let Ash' Pikachu attack his Elekid first so he could absorb it and boost Elekid's power.He had his Torterra use Giga Drain on Ash's Gliscor (which missed) so he could get Ash to become overconfident.He purposely let Ash defeat his Aggron & Gastrodon so he could see Ash's team and know what strategy he'd use.For intelligence I'd say Conway is the only one on the list that is on his level.


Ash + Bea + A.J. + Gary + Conway + Shingo + Katie + Sawyer + Harrison + Tyson = Paul

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul has just as much experience as Ash does

Paul is serious and stoic during battle just like Bea

Paul puts his pokemon through rigorous training just like A.J.

Paul uses both new and old pokemon along with rotating them just like Gary did in OS

Paul is just as intelligent as Conway is

Paul used a device to determine a pokemon's strength similar to Shingo

Paul is just as skilled of a battler as Katie

Paul plans ahead of his battles just like Sawyer did in XY

Paul has pokemon that are on the same level as Harrison's Blaziken

Paul's teams are just as balanced as Tyson's

Summary
Paul is the total package

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Yh it helped Paul capture Ursaring but that didn't matter later on when they eventually fought because it was dominating Chimchar up until Blaze activated.We don't how strong Hitmonlee truly is but I know for certain it's not on the level of Ursaring which is why I find it silly that it would be capable of defeating it 1 on 1.Ursaring is a lot like Ash's Snorlax as far as taking a lot of blows.

Look at it against Greta's Medicham.You say Hitmonlee had the "upper hand" because it landed effective hits as if Ursaring was on the verge of losing.Don't you know that Paul has a huge habit of not commanding his pokemon to dodge?We saw plenty of that with Barry btw.DODGE,DODGE and DODGE!!Also, yes, Paul trained his Pokemon, but he's not the only one who does that: Barry himself even mentioned that he trained his Hitmonlee too and that's why it was so speedy.

Barry doesn't train his pokemon the way Paul does.You mentioned that his Hitmonlee is speedy but where is the power and endurance?It's quite obvious that Barry put most of his focus on Empoleon,this isn't the case with Paul as he puts focus on multiple pokemon.

What have I said about Paul that isn't true?He's one of the most skilled regular trainers in the series but I personally have him at #1.As far competence and intelligence goes he's gotta be #1 in that for non Champion and E4 trainers.Barry isn't as competent or as skilled as Paul so this isn't even worth talking about.You have a problem with me giving praise to Paul but if it was Ash you wouldn't be bothered by it.

There's nothing wrong with Paul losing 1 on his pokemon in a battle but it has to be believable,most of his pokemon can KO more than 1 pokemon depending on who they're facing.

snip

I distinctly remember saying that you downplay other trainers' accomplishments, so I don't know why you felt the need to bombard me with this unnecessary text wall about Paul's accomplishments or skills as a trainer. How skilled he is has nothing to do with how skilled other characters are.

Let's just end this discussion because it's derailing the topic of the tread. This is a "Worst Losses" thread, and people are free to add whatever they feel fits, and that counts losses to Paul, however justified you personally may think they are. I don't think it was fair to not let Barry get at least one measly knockout and you clearly do. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

You know two losses also that don't get talked about enough, though they honestly frustrated me quite a bit?

First off, Ash's loss against Cheren. I think it frustrated me most because it felt more like them trying to make Oshawott out to be even more of a joke than he already was. They had a whole episode dedicated to teaching him out to fight without his scalchop, yet they have him lose it just so he can get zapped cause haha funny otter getting zapped is funny. I think I hated how much they used Oshawott getting shocked for laughs. Oshawott should have been able to attack with Aqua Jet or something in this case, but no, they make Oshawott lose and make him look even more like a joke.

Then there was all those losses Ash faced in JN036. Those irritated me because they felt incredibly forced. I hate the whole losing streak in Journeys Ash went through, especially because of two reasons. In that whole episode, they made Ash and Riolu look so bad while doing all they could to make Goh look superior by comparison. And then those losses against Octillery and Tentacruel was just made worse because they never show Ash bouncing back from those losses or learning to adapt to overcome stuff like Grapploct's Octolock. What was the point if you're not gonna show development? They start this losing streak, but never properly show Ash bouncing back. All of it happened off screen.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Someone on reddit posted on why the Kalos League works, but I can’t comment on it because I was banned from that sub for bashing Ash-Greninja.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mstk24192859/status/1488886172168310785

And let me just say I respectfully disagree. There were hints from the beginning that Ash would win the Kalos League. Ash’s loss may work for the character arcs of Ash and Alain, but not for Greninja.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

You know two losses also that don't get talked about enough, though they honestly frustrated me quite a bit?

First off, Ash's loss against Cheren. I think it frustrated me most because it felt more like them trying to make Oshawott out to be even more of a joke than he already was. They had a whole episode dedicated to teaching him out to fight without his scalchop, yet they have him lose it just so he can get zapped cause haha funny otter getting zapped is funny. I think I hated how much they used Oshawott getting shocked for laughs. Oshawott should have been able to attack with Aqua Jet or something in this case, but no, they make Oshawott lose and make him look even more like a joke.

Then there was all those losses Ash faced in JN036. Those irritated me because they felt incredibly forced. I hate the whole losing streak in Journeys Ash went through, especially because of two reasons. In that whole episode, they made Ash and Riolu look so bad while doing all they could to make Goh look superior by comparison. And then those losses against Octillery and Tentacruel was just made worse because they never show Ash bouncing back from those losses or learning to adapt to overcome stuff like Grapploct's Octolock. What was the point if you're not gonna show development?

That first one is what I said initially. Solicited Oshawott as Ash’s weakest Pokemon.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Someone on reddit posted on why the Kalos League works, but I can’t comment on it because I was banned from that sub for bashing Ash-Greninja.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mstk24192859/status/1488886172168310785

And let me just say I respectfully disagree. There were hints from the beginning that Ash would win the Kalos League. Ash’s loss may work for the character arcs of Ash and Alain, but not for Greninja.

Yeah, I strongly disagree with this post on Reddit, and one thing I wanna point out. In it, the OP says

Ok, so let’s say for the sake of argument, we give Ash the win instead. So Ash wins, great. We’ll set aside the fact his whole arc was about how winning isn’t everything and thus handing him the Kalos League win reduces the impact of that arc.

It also completely demolishes Alain’s arc. Without the win, Alain’s already questioning his strength, Ash’s stand against Lysandre doesn’t prove anything to Alain because Ash is the stronger trainer in Alain’s eyes because he won.

First of all, how about we take a look at Alain when we say winning isn't everything. Alain was coming across as he believed he was invincible. He sat there constantly saying "I will never lose again!" I think Alain needed to learn winning wasn't everything more than Ash, especially after all the major losses Ash went through time and time again. Ash already learned that lesson. I remember him being pretty upset after losing in Kanto, but he dealt with it better in future leagues. He gets back up and he tries again.

And secondly, Alain questioning his strength would have worked. He loses to Ash and questions his strength. He questions everything, and Lysandre's true motives only make him feel worse. Seeing Ash's spirit when he takes a stand against Lysandre and hearing some words from Ash could remind Alain of what he's fighting for and give him the motivation to rise up again. It wouldn't have truly been any different. He'd be reminded of how strong he is capable of being, regardless of losing. He needed to learn winning isn't everything more than Ash. He didn't need to win to prove he could help Marin and save her Chespin.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Yeah, I strongly disagree with this post on Reddit, and one thing I wanna point out. In it, the OP says



First of all, how about we take a look at Alain when we say winning isn't everything. Alain was coming across as he believed he was invincible. He sat there constantly saying "I will never lose again!" I think Alain needed to learn winning wasn't everything more than Ash, especially after all the major losses Ash went through time and time again. Ash already learned that lesson. I remember him being pretty upset after losing in Kanto, but he dealt with it better in future leagues. He gets back up and he tries again.

And secondly, Alain questioning his strength would have worked. He loses to Ash and questions his strength. He questions everything, and Lysandre's true motives only make him feel worse. Seeing Ash's spirit when he takes a stand against Lysandre and hearing some words from Ash could remind Alain of what he's fighting for and give him the motivation to rise up again. It wouldn't have truly been any different. He'd be reminded of how stronger he is capable of being, regardless of losing. He needed to learn winning isn't everything more than Ash.

Plus Alain DIDNT even want to win in the first place. Ash did. And Alain isn’t the main character. ASH IS!!!!

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

You know two losses also that don't get talked about enough, though they honestly frustrated me quite a bit?

First off, Ash's loss against Cheren. I think it frustrated me most because it felt more like them trying to make Oshawott out to be even more of a joke than he already was. They had a whole episode dedicated to teaching him out to fight without his scalchop, yet they have him lose it just so he can get zapped cause haha funny otter getting zapped is funny. I think I hated how much they used Oshawott getting shocked for laughs. Oshawott should have been able to attack with Aqua Jet or something in this case, but no, they make Oshawott lose and make him look even more like a joke.

Then there was all those losses Ash faced in JN036. Those irritated me because they felt incredibly forced. I hate the whole losing streak in Journeys Ash went through, especially because of two reasons. In that whole episode, they made Ash and Riolu look so bad while doing all they could to make Goh look superior by comparison. And then those losses against Octillery and Tentacruel was just made worse because they never show Ash bouncing back from those losses or learning to adapt to overcome stuff like Grapploct's Octolock. What was the point if you're not gonna show development? They start this losing streak, but never properly show Ash bouncing back. All of it happened off screen.

A lot of BW's battles kinda come across as this to a certain degree when you think about it: Unfezant was made to lose pathetically easily against a Riolu solely for the sake of creating the illusion that Cameron was an amazing trainer. Like, if that Riolu belonged to a Fighting-type specialist (who would logically train specifically to deal with the inevitable opponents with a type advantage) or at the bare minimum someone who at the very least was smart, I might have been able to let it slide. But nope, we just have to believe that this complete idiot who in that very same battle sends out two Pokemon to get steamrolled by opponents with a cuadruple type advantage against them is somehow that good.

 

[Daren]

You can discuss the thematics about Ash learning that winning isn't everything (soemthing I can't help but feel he's already got down at this point) but the elephant in the living room is that this was the sixth time he lost a league and people were frustrated with the show always screwing Ash over then knocking him back to square one.
Edit: People tend to sympathize with characters who can't get a break, especially when it looks like they're about to get one then it gets yanked away.
There's a reason the ending of the classic animated short "Rabbit Rampage" is so memorable.

Edit 2: I do think there's room for an interesting discussion about storylines that work well standalone but are controversial in context. There's a rather notorious episode of "Star Trek: Deep Space 9" called "Waltz" that's quality gets debated in the fandom for similar reasons; a lot of people agree the performance and writing were great but hate how it affected the story long-term.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Edit 2: I do think there's room for an interesting discussion about storylines that work well standalone but are controversial in context. There's a rather notorious episode of "Star Trek: Deep Space 9" called "Waltz" that's quality gets debated in the fandom for similar reasons; a lot of people agree the performance and writing were great but hate how it affected the story long-term.

Yeah, this is another reason why the infamous episode where Pikachu gets jealous of Riolu is so controversial: on paper, the idea of Pikachu's loyalty to Ash having its limits actually has really intriguing potential. In practice, though, it came across as jarring because 1) Ash and Pikachu have been through far worse than the former giving a different Pokemon more attention for what appears to be only a single day, and 2) Ash has raised countless inexperienced Pokemon, including four other babies, without Pikachu kicking up a stink about it, so the end result feels less like Ash and Pikachu's friendship is being put to the test and more like Pikachu is just being a spoiled, entitled brat.

TL; DR, context is everything. And I think a lot of examples of battles here prove it: in a vacuum, it's not necessarily bad for Unfezant to lose against Riolu, or for Alain to defeat Ash even after the latter's Greninja has mastered its super mode. It's when you look at the context surrounding those outcomes that they become a problem: it feels too much of a stretch of the suspension of disbelief for Unfezant to lose against a Riolu that belongs to such an idiotic character who couldn't have possibly trained it to be half that good (on top of Unfezant having very few wins as is), and the mere notion of a character (and a main character at that) losing after finally having attained mastery of a power that they've been working their tail off to perfect is going to leave a sour taste in people's mouths regardless of how "unique and subversibe" it is, especially in a series that infamously spent over two decades yanking on its own protagonist's chain.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

TL; DR, context is everything. And I think a lot of examples of battles here prove it: in a vacuum, it's not necessarily bad for Unfezant to lose against Riolu, or for Alain to defeat Ash even after the latter's Greninja has mastered its super mode. It's when you look at the context surrounding those outcomes that they become a problem: it feels too much of a stretch of the suspension of disbelief for Unfezant to lose against a Riolu that belongs to such an idiotic character who couldn't have possibly trained it to be half that good (on top of Unfezant having very few wins as is), and the mere notion of a character (and a main character at that) losing after finally having attained mastery of a power that they've been working their tail off to perfect is going to leave a sour taste in people's mouths regardless of how "unique and subversibe" it is, especially in a series that infamously spent over two decades yanking on its own protagonist's chain.

Context is certainly a reason also why these losses were horrible. I absolutely agree here.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Tbh the only leagues worse than Kalos are the Alola, Unova, and Kanto Leagues
Alola relied too much on gags for Ash’s battles and is the worst league. Anyone could enter and the final battle was only a 3v3.
Unova had one good battle (Ash vs Stefan) but Ash vs Trip was a horrible conclusion to their rivalry and Ash vs Cameron was DEM
Kanto and Kalos are interchangeable but Kalos is above Kanto because Ash vs Sawyer was good. Kanto’s battles were mediocre and Team Rocket sabotaging Ash hurts a lot. I do like how Charizard lost, I just wish it could have been to Gary instead. Btw I LOVE Ash and Ritchie’s bromance (easily the best part of the league)
Kalos problems are: it being rushed, skipped battles, Ashs other team members not having a chance to shine, overhyping Greninja and it being a letdown, and Ash loosing to Alain which are more glaring flaws than Unova and Kanto’s.

 

[Sai]

Alola League was fine for the regions first league, it made sense in the lore that they had established the first regional league and that's why there was also no Elite 4 established yet and why Acerola and the others could be beaten by Kiawe and so forth. I also think many of the battles as we got deeper into the tournament got much better.

In terms of individual battles it did have a lot of better ones than the others. Especially since we got 2 on 2's as it went on. Also the league had some great character moments like Lana and Mallow or Guzma destroying Lana, the Kiawe and Sophocles bro battles, Guzma/Llima, and of course Ash's battles with Guzma and Gladion.

 

[Greninjaman]

In my opinion, the Ash v Paul battle at Lake acuity was the worst. I don't recall Ash getting pounded that hard. In fact, the episode after, Ash was depressed for a good chunk of it.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

In my opinion, the Ash v Paul battle at Lake acuity was the worst. I don't recall Ash getting pounded that hard. In fact, the episode after, Ash was depressed for a good chunk of it.

Yeah, I don't think there was ever a battle where Ash entire team was so heavily injured. We've seen them need to be sent to the Pokemon Center before, but never like that. It was a difficult battle to watch actually. Just seeing his team being slaughtered by a character I despised and wanted to see Ash finally defeat. He eventually did get to defeat Paul, but that Lake Acuity battle was hard to watch. And it wasn't just Ash's team being destroyed, it was Ash's views of how a trainer should treat their Pokemon being stomped on. The loss needed to happen for his victory against Paul in the Sinnoh League to be that much more satisfying, but I wish that Ash did better though at least.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Speaking of battles involving Paul, the tag tournament is one that he and Ash absolutely shouldn't have won. The entire point of the whole thing was for the paired up trainers to come up with strategies together and work as a team, and yet the least cooperative pair is the one who gets to win it? Granted, the only reason there was a lack of cooperation is because Paul is just that much of a douche, but still, it doesn't seem right for him and Ash to win when they were constantly butting heads, especially since Paul ended up hating the Soothe Bell prize anyway. The moment where I feel the two should have been eliminated is when Paul effectively threw the match because he lost faith in Chimchar (who mind you, had been sent out to battle against the advise of Nurse Joy) and left Ash to fight solo. Paul would have certainly blamed Ash and/or Chimchar for that loss, but whatever. The point is that his behavior should have warranted disqualification.

 

[Daren]

I think I see what the writers were going for there--Ash and Paul were so strong they still won--but it still felt odd, especially considering Ash got curbstomped so often in DP I had trouble buying the idea he was that powerful in it, and by extension Paul (who until acuity mostly seemed just a bit more powerful than Ash).

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I think I see what the writers were going for there--Ash and Paul were so strong they still won--but it still felt odd, especially considering Ash got curbstomped so often in DP I had trouble buying the idea he was that powerful in it, and by extension Paul (who until acuity mostly seemed just a bit more powerful than Ash).

I don't feel like that's quite a satisfactory answer, though, because no amount of Ash and Paul being strong erases the fact that Paul effectively forfeited the match, something that should have resulted in a disqualification for both him and Ash because, well, it can't really be a tag team battle if Ash is the one doing all the work, and the point of the tournament is that the tag teams have to win the rounds together.

 

[Daren]

I can see maybe the referees deciding to let it go since they didn't want to disqualify Ash when he kept going but yeah, it's a bit weird. I guess I didn't notice because the show and games are often pretty vague on the rules of battles, considering things like Blaine trying to kill his opponent twice in a row and I recall him saying Ash would be the one punished if he succeeded.

I actually tried a quick google search to find out if real life tagteam sporting events have rules for what happens if one person forfeits but couldn't find anything.