your comments are most likely dangerous

[espreon]

i would say this is a good oppertunity for me to say a few words.
some things that will help you, and the people you comment on.

i know well that i used to start drawing because of a certain pokemon board.
but when i look back i realise i hardly made any progress,
the reason for that were the comments.

the ''omg 10/10'' comments are actually the most harmful.
as you might not say.
they give you a certain satisfaction that makes the artist of that piece give the feeling he can rest, while in fact the artist just started.

when i look back i see i progressed instantly when i drew for others reasons, school for the most part.
they are extremely critical and i could and would not understand why the drawings i did that had high rates on boards etc. only recieved a 7 or less on school.
in the learning process you start to see things, and you understand why they gave the 7.
you try harder, draw unfamiliar territory.. the only way to improve.
i would not have progressed if i wouldnt have had critisism like this, very little.

Pokemon is an excellent way of being introduced into drawing.
these creatures are not very hard to do, and still require some skill for poses etc.
so think twice next time you comment.
Dont comment at all, critisize, but all in kind fashion.

 

[Purple Kecleon]

Um... I thought I saw this somewhere before... *blinks* Am I having a deja vu moment...?...Um... *blinks* A lot of people give critisism already so this isn't exactly necessary <_<;

*blinks* Yeaaah... I thought most people already knew this anyway...

Or maybe not o.o *walks away*

 

[Kauri]

Man, what did the shift key ever do to you?

Ya can't be stingy with praise either, as you seem ta be suggesting. How can a person know they're getting better if all their audience does is say "yeah, it's nice, but..."?

I fail to see a problem with the way people comment here, as well.

Besides, fanart is meant to be an enjoyable pasttime. Not everyone wants to be constantly improving, so they're allowed to ignore or accept critisism as they wish. Duh.

 

[espreon]

if you have anything to say plz reply maturely.
further, this is no essay. shift is not required.

for people like ''kasumi chan'', they want to improve and appreciate well placed critisism.

for those, pay that extra little time in your criticizing comments, to help them out for their next piece of work.

"yeah, it's nice, but..." is not the way to improvise on a picture, from positive to negative comments,

like for example: ''youve done the eyes well, but you might want to..''

just that extra thought, before you left click the submit button.
so the artist has some pointers to think of next time.

 

[White Gryphon]

Well, IMHO, without criticism you become stagnant. You never learn what you can do to become stronger, so all your future pieces end up with the same quality. How are you supposed to become the best artist you can be, if no one lets you in on what you could be doing better?

What I wouldn't give to have someone tell me what I could do better with my OWN artwork. I try to rely mostly on the limitless bounds of the internet for constructive criticism, but in the end I can only get it from my own mom or my art teacher (which I don't see every day). Lately I've been posting my stuff on the Pokemon Elite boards, and all I get is "this is good" or "wow u can draw great". Whereas on Bulba and TPM I get comments like "This is good, but this needs work..." and "Neat, but this is missing and that is a tad out of proportion". THAT'S the kind of comments I respect... those that criticise my work, those that tell me what I did wrong, so that when it DOES matter (such as when I submit my portfolio to Pixar to look over, or when the Academy Awards are being judged) I will hopefully be working at my full potential.

For the serious artists, art is a way of life, not a hobby or skill. And the serious artists would really like it if someone told them not only that their artwork sucks, but WHY it sucks and WHAT they can do to prevent it from sucking in the future.

 

[Purple Kecleon]

EXACTLY!... but... people already constructively critisize here, so I fail to see the need of this post.

 

[Kasumi]

Originally posted by espreon
further, this is no essay. shift is not required.

Even if it's not an essay, the use of caps is always appreciated.

I don't know why this became a thread since you posted the very same in the PokéSchool Characters thread.

Anyway, what I have to say about criticism and comments is that there has to be a balance between the 2 of them. How can I know what doing wrong if no one points my mistakes and how do I know I'm improving if no one says what I'm doing good?

However, I believe this thread belongs in the Fanworks, Arts and Books discussion forums. *moves*

 

[Flare-Espeon]

First thing I have to say is that if you've browsed around through a couple of threads here' youll find that a lot of people are giving critism, and by saying people should give critism, because they don't do it now, you are neglecting the people who spend time (and thereby, phone costs, means risking a family argument when the phonebill comes in) to look carefully at pictures, (even if they'd better spend time for their study, since test are coming up in a few days, but suddenly, a favorite artist decides to post some 10 pictures, you just have to review), and even almost got up in flamewars, caused by the artist who doesn't appriciate critism

That's one point, second point, although it's good to give critism (don't get me wrong, I agree with youthat's it good to give critism to pictures, although I think it would be better to post this on another forum, where people still have to learn to give critism) it's also good to tell what people do good. Not the "best artwork ever" , "you rule" replies, but telling what you like and why. Why? For several reasons. If you tell people what you like about their picture and why they know they've done that well, and can use the same technique again. But there's also aother reason. If people get to hear with every picture what they do wrong, but never what they do well, you get disillusioned, and you get the feeling that you'll never be able to draw something decent and the next thing you do is: stop drawing! Because you have to be a really strong person if you can stand only critism everytime you draw something. And I know this from my own experience. I've had so many depressing comments and bad marks during my art lessons, that I totaly stopped with drawing because I just felt I will never be able to do it. Now my loss as drawer never did the pokemon community much harm, but if because all to bad critims people decide to stop drawing, only a few good artist will remain, and future talents will disappear before they can acctualy make something good.

Something that also should be kept in mind is that when giving comments you should keep the level of the artist in mind. Starting artists could be bothered with details later on, let them learn the principles first. Then there's also something like style. Every artist has it's own style, and some you may like, some not, but's it's how you recognize the artist. If you take Kasumi Chan, she got a reply that she could use some thinner lines. However, if she should do that, it could work out nice, but it could also ruin her own style, which is quite manga like and can use some thicker lines (and besides, they aren't too thick).

So my opinion about critism if the following. It should certainly be given, but don't bring it too harsh and tell what's good as well, because not only replies with good comments are dangerous, but replies with only bad comments can be even mor bad (and I can tell from my own experience)

Oh, and certainly post this thread at some other boards as well, it may acctually help

 

[espreon]

what i ment with criticizing, is not to be picky, or anything that might get across as offensive, but really,

its nice to hear people say ''NICE WORK! YEY''

but it seems so shallow dont you think?
the way i usually review is like: (and i dont care how its judged so dont bother making a post about it.. just an example)


''(positivepart) nice work in color use, and the emotions are expressed with true feeling. etc. etc.

(negative) however, the positioning of the characters makes it seem as they are floating in the air. you might want to pay attention to this on your next work.

(a score) your work is amusing, but lacks some signs of solidness. overall 7,4/10 good! remember the floating ''

there is nothing harsh in this, its not huge, but will defintetly be more appreciated by the artist.

you are neglecting the people who spend time ...

i clearly spoke of ''shallow'' critisism

this is not to them, but to those who dont. for the people yet to come here, and for those who didnt know of anything like this having effect.

 

[Vaporeon Lugia Krabby]

I still somehow think that I'm like the universal stem of all this. Then again, saying I'd have that much influence is just a laugh in itself.

The concept here of course is balance and it varies from person to person. Generally, some people don't know how to make constructive criticism, too shy, or are generally too nice. Then you have the ones that are poor at giving any nice comments what-so-ever and will usually make poor, and rather spam-like criticism. I wouldn't point to the people here and say, "You can't post, so get lost." Generally, everyone here can make a half-decent reply. I know personally it frusterates me if a person will give a two word comment, since well, I'm always big on the criticism. But people should post as they see fit, just as long as it isn't offensive.

Speaking of something else, if I person can't handle criticism, then why are they showing their stuff? Honestly, I never have been able to figure that one out.

 

[Myuu]

This thread is sort of a no-brainer. In school we work strictly on constructive critisism, especially on english papers. A paper covered in red ink...is a happy paper. Or something. You should NEVER tell someone their work is perfect. Unless it is. But you should make it clear that you're not just saying that.

 

[DGE]

I've never seen that x/10 rating system around here. Maybe that might be a little on people's harsh sides... like they'd think "who are you to grade my work, this isn't an art class."

I'm one of those who needs to be told what she's doing wrong, so bring it on, I say. I'd been doing my drawings for years, and it wasn't until this summer that I posted here and people were generous enough to tell me that my proportions were skewed and backgrounds are nice. Now I'm a better artist for it. (or, y'know, will be when I finish something to post again ^^;

Flare-Espeon and VLK are right. If you don't like it, don't bring it on yourself.

 

[Flare-Espeon]

Originally posted by espreon
i clearly spoke of ''shallow'' critisism

Yes, in this post, but could you tell me were you said it in your earlier posts? Because I missed it

Originally posted by espreon
this is not to them, but to those who dont. for the people yet to come here, and for those who didnt know of anything like this having effect. [/B]

Well, it's not like no one in the Art Lounge has never heard of it before, and it's not like new people can't read about it either

Thread: READ BEFORE POSTING - Art Lounge Guidelines [UPDATED 6/11/03]

Originally posted by Karate


3. NO BASHING OF ART

Sorry for the all-caps, but this is something I've seen turn ugly if the rule is not stressed enough. Do not tell someone their art sucks, is horrible, deserves to be covered in dung, etc. Instead, offer them constructive criticism on how to improve. If you have no constructive criticism, then stay quiet and move on. Vicious and/or repeat-bashers will be reported to the admins.

Addendum: Posts praising someone's artwork are allowed, but give them reasons you like their art. Persons going around and making replies that go to the extent of "Cool, I like it," will be warned on their behavior if they do not stop, and have some posts purged if they continue to do so rabidly. I mean, heck, would it hurt you to go "Cool, I like it because of the color," etc.?

Addendum 6/09/03: This also goes for people's replies/critiques. Whether the person is of less skill than you and giving you advice you would deem "bad", or is much more highly skilled and saying a million things at once, it is considered inappropriate to flame them for saying so.

Originally posted by Vaporeon Lugia Krabby
Speaking of something else, if I person can't handle criticism, then why are they showing their stuff? Honestly, I never have been able to figure that one out.

Well, it's not that hard, they want to hear the "You rule!", "best artwork ever" "I can't do it that way" comments. And when you don't give it, they become angry and start to should *sighs*

Originally posted by Pika-Zukin
I've never seen that x/10 rating system around here. Maybe that might be a little on people's harsh sides... like they'd think "who are you to grade my work, this isn't an art class."

I agree about that. Besides, where do you judge from? Comparing beginning artists to profs like KC and VLK would be hugely unfair. And by giving a mark, you'll not just look at all kinds of arts aspects, but also wether you like the picture. If someone drew a beautifull gloomy picture and you don't like a gloomy style, you'll be more likely to give a lower mark, although the picture may be very good.

Giving comments is something you'll have to learn. You have to be hasrh, even at people can get along with very well. But you also have to develop some sense about pictures. If a picture looks strange, why does that appear? Hows the shading, does it fit with where the light comes from? How's the persepective, coloring? The more you look at pictures the more you'll learn about how things should realistic.

 

[espreon]

the ''omg 10/10'' comments are actually the most harmful.

thats where i posted the ''shallow'' part

im not gonna go in discussion further with you,
you are doing everything to make me come out bad and i can not argue with people like that.

so i wont even try because it has no use.

this is from my own experiences of being at a pokemon board
and im only trying to share those with others, how you think about it, or how you deal with it. i dont care

 

[Flare-Espeon]

Listen, you come here with a post you already posted earlier (not that anything's wrong with that, but why saying two things at the same time? Why not make a totaly new post, work other ideas out in it as well? ) , wich tell us that our "comments are most likely dangerous", telling us how we should reply to art topics. That a lot of people here already do something like that, you totaly neglect, or it least, so it appears to me. Because with written languae, you only tell 10% of what your acctually saying. Other things people can make up from voice tone and face expresion for example. So everyone gives his or her own idea to whetever you write. And personaly, the way you write, your style, really reminds me of a teacher who knows everything better. Maybe you don't mean to do it that way, but that's how I feel it. And I don't like to be told what to do in that style, especially not if I already do those things. I'm sure that if you would write with caps and not starting every new sentence, even those who aren't finished, but are just ended by a , you're styler would sound a lot better. Good sentence building really helps a lot.
And sorry to say it, but with

i would say this is a good oppertunity for me to say a few words.
some things that will help you, and the people you comment on.

you really give me the feeling now you're gonna tell us all what we have to do

But it's only the style you bring things in I don't like. Bassicly, I agree with you, it's good to comment on people and tel;l them what they do wrong. However, in your experience, you got to much positive replies, so you want more negative. That's OK. But I have the experience that only negative replies work the wrong way, people stop drawing. Those are both usefull experiences, good enough to make an all-rounded reply. And don't say you ment possitive comments as well, I got that from you later posts, but you made it too much unclear to me in you firsts.

You wanted to start a discussiuon, but when someone thinks a little different, or doesn't totaly agree, adds some thngs to it (hey, it's good to start this discussion, and I already sugested you should do it on other boards as well, esspecially boards that do give only good comments, and I just wanted to post out, we already got some rules about it in the Art Forums as well) you blame that person for "making you come out bad" I have no intention to do so, but I do like discusing things, and when discussing, you just comment on parts the other says you don't agree with. It's part of that game and you don't have to hate eachother for thinking a little different. There are already enough people who do that and look what the world's coming to. When things come to it, my opinion is just a little different then your's, maybe not even that much, but probably the way you read and saw it, made me come out harsher then I mend to be.

 

[Myuu]

" ~Prays this doesn't turn into a flame thread~

Maybe this subject should be on the board rules. I mean, I never thought it would have to be, considering it's sort of a no-brainer not to praise every bit of artwork you come across...But apparently it should be in the rules, since it's already a topic-starter.

But I'd like to add that there ARE some times when I am serious impressed with people's artwork. I've seen ones done so perfectly to me, that I actually see no need of improvement (but as we all know, no peice of artwork is ever finished). When I say something like "I've never seen anything like it, your art skills are amazing" or "Where the heck did you learn to draw like that!?", I mean it from the heart and I'm not just saying that.

But really. If this is such a big deal, maybe it should just be added in the board rules or something.

 

[espreon]

no this is not turning into a flamewar.

i know i posted this in a topic, but you cant start a discussion in such a topic.
so i decided to make it a topic on itself, with succes.

yes, it is possible some works may seem flawless, i can agree.
but then you could tell WHY you like the picture so much, instead of ''yey 10''
people will feel more appreciation, and even then those are critics.
because the artist will get (more) confidence in that certain direction that was praised by someone else.

your comments are most likely dangerous

was ment to draw attention. you either feel offensed or like ''wtf is he talking about?'' which instantly makes you click the topic

i know the way i say things make me come over like got a lot of ''air''.
just wanted to see how the board would deal with people who acted like that
im really not like that, but i feel like i have to act mature. to prevent flaming and stuff.. well i almost got there anyway.
though if a webmaster would tell such a thing with those words, most would obey without any harmfull words.

dont tell me this is not true, ive seen it.
no offense to anyone, i wouldnt know about here.

And don't say you ment possitive comments as well

good critics are a mix of both positive and negative comments (unless it seems flawless in your eyes), so i will say that i ment those.

 

[Flare-Espeon]

I know, I just didn't get it the first time, my fault

Well, there's kinda something in the Art Forum rules that says something about posting replies

Addendum: Posts praising someone's artwork are allowed, but give them reasons you like their art. Persons going around and making replies that go to the extent of "Cool, I like it," will be warned on their behavior if they do not stop, and have some posts purged if they continue to do so rabidly. I mean, heck, would it hurt you to go "Cool, I like it because of the color," etc.?

Now if just everybody read that and acted like that

I can agree with what you mean with seeing artwork that seems almost perfect, Myuu. I always spend times on VLK artwork to find things that are wrong with it. Same goes for others. And the problem is that they are acctually the ones who want to know what they can improve. Still I agree that telling them what they do well helps them to use the ood things again.

espreon, I just don't like people who show a lot of air. I've just met too much of them in real live and some of them have hurt me really bad, that's why I can become furious when people act that way, although most of times I know when to stop (well that is, unless you're my uncle ) OK, I know I'm not always 100% humble as well, but really, the way you posted now you seem a lot nicer to me ;-)

I agree with what you said about people are willing to listen when you're a webmaster, or even a modd, or someone else with authority. Not that's it's that bad here, but I've other experiences where it did indeed happen. I guess you need authority to get people to listen too you *sighs*

 

[Barb]

It's important to remember that in discussing art or literature, people have different tastes. Some people love Picasso; others look at his paintings and shake their heads. Some people love reading Pulitzer Prize-winning novels; others think they're pretentious. When you publish anything: artwork, fanfiction, whatever: you open yourself up to criticism. And not all of that criticism will be good or constructive. Charles Dickens and Agatha Christie got bad reviews in their respective lifetimes and I'm sure most fanfiction writers also get their share; ditto for artists. However, the bad reviews certainly didn't stop Dickens or Christie from writing and they shouldn't stop anyone from drawing or painting or telling a story.

Most of the comments made by posters reflect my own personal ideas of constructive criticism and how to give it. It should be as specific as possible [i.e., "I loved the scene with Ash and Misty in the Gym"; "Your use of shading really made the characters stand out. This is a great piece of fanart."] Some people insert their personal opinions into their criticism [i.e., "Gymshipping is sick! Ash and Misty 4-ever!"] Feel free to ignore this. Seriously. It's not constructive or even really negative; it's just someone's opinion.

I once had the nerve to tell a fanfic author that her final story in a trilogy wasn't as good as the first story. She sent me a two-page email explaining how she'd "worked for weeks on that chapter" and how badly I'd hurt her feelings. I made no apology for my comments. I liked the first story and not the third, deal with it, was basically what I said. Tolkien worked for years on Lord of the Rings and people still read it today. Think anyone will be reading her fanfiction 50 years from now?

I should point out that I was one of two people who actually gave her criticism; the rest of the 100+ reviews for this fic were the fawning fangirl type: "OMG You Rock! This is great!" This is not criticism. It is not constructive. It is meaningless, insincere flattery. It does not do the author any good to hear words like these because it doesn't make him or her a better writer. If she thought my criticism was bad, wait until she actually sends something to an editor at a publishing house. Their reviews can be brutal.

I have found that the more I review others' works, the more reviews I get in return. Sometimes I don't get reviews for a period of months. I recently received a good review about an original short story that I published on FFN back in 2001! If you are serious about improving as an artist or writer, then be willing to listen to criciticism, even though it might not be what you want to hear. Accept the fact that not everyone will love your work. If someone gives a good review, thank them.

 

[Iveechan]

I like to force myself to make a two line reply to an art or fiction. Some people on boards bless me with HUGE paragraphs on what they like from my stuff and ask questions, just a nice solid post. So I now feel the need to try and "bless" people... it's such a great feeling when you go into your art or fic topic and see a paragraph reply. Then you feel appreciated and not just a "pleaser".

I hate numbers, 7/10 and stuff. Everybody here is an amateur, sure they're at different levels, but you're most likely not going to find a pro posting on a Pokemon board. I never give dash number rates like that unless the thread starter asked for them.

While constructive criticism is helpful it can be overwhelming. At one board, th people were very nitpicky, saying "the arms should be a bit longer" or "the angle of *blah-blah* is a bit off". I tolerated these replies for awhile, then finaly broke down and became hostile. I explained that I draw without guidelines and I'm not pro so there's bound to be mistakes, and I can't go back and change them so there's no point in being so nitpicky. Now when I post pictures I try to point out problems with my pictures beforehand because I hate it when people point out things I already know (I'm a tough critic myself on my own work).

One final thing about replies; don't suggest or request what the person SHOULD draw unless that person asks for it. I get hostile towards people who start requesting to me. The way I see it, getting to view one's art is a priveledge, and if you want a request, you should either ask if requests are being taken (followed by a decent reply) or private message your query.