Mafia ZD X BMG 2019 Link’s Awakening Hydra Mafia Crossover Game Thread

[thesunspear]

Saying "fluff" 50 times doesn't count as fluff eh

 

[Bok's Lovechild]

Saying "fluff" 50 times doesn't count as fluff eh

Meh, thought someone might say this. Lol. But it was concerning my interpretation of his posts so it has meaning. It's also why I put it behind a spoiler. Because that part isn't absolutely necessary to my conclusion read posted below that. Just wanted to show my thought process of my read and put all of that in one place to show that.

 

[thesunspear]

Yeah, I personally don't think nearly as many of his posts are fluff at all. There are a lot of posts in there that are followup questions/comments to things you regarded as "not fluff" so the whole thing does not really look good to me in general

 

[Greymon]

He made his comment in light of the majority vote/ super majority vote discussion. For a super majority, we may need about 10 of all 13 votes to be able to lynch someone. He argued that this would be a good thing, for the extra time it would give. I argued that this was a bad thing, because it is a threshold we would never reach. Besides, I have never yet experienced that a normal majority would be too low of a threshold to facilitate a proper discussion. I don’t believe the town can benefit from a supermajority voting rule.

I'm personally against majority rules in general but I see your point here

On ZD we don't really do reads lists on day 1, and activity is nowhere near this high at that point (or a lot of the game actually). So I know that us Zd people are trying to adjust to day 1 being this serious and full of discussion.

Same for bulba btw. Blame the other communities

Just putting these three quotes together since they pretty much tie together anyway. Admittedly, some of the hydras I haven't really thought about as two people since some have fairly consistent typing styles between them (like Aflame here), whereas the Bulbagarden regulars ones (at least those I've played with, like the Hydreigon & Shelgon EX and Lone_Wolf teams) are easier for me to actually think of as two people : one account. So I see how that could cause some hypocritical posts between the heads, but at the same time, bringing it up twice feels a little defensive to me.

I'm with you there, people you know are easier to split up. I can differentiate EX with little effort as far as I'm aware, you're a bit harder to do.
The advantage of a hydra we can have as town is looking at the contribution of both of the partners and find inconsistencies or odd behaviour from one of them. Just because the account makes good posts, if the scum partner screws up the can still get busted.

That was this head's decision (you could probably guess who regardless though haha), since this head likes to be invisible everywhere on the internet lol

Ok now I know who you are, I always see you as hidden

Honestly? I feel like finding scum is hard at this point, because it's only the first day, we don't know enough, etc.

I get that, but looking at your partner's list, do you completely agree with that or are there some points that you disagree with?

read through and compiled quotes, let's see if i can remember why i quoted them :^)

General tip, the same way I do it, quote and immediately type your comment.

Well, there were a couple reasons why I didn't fully explain each one: 1. I didn't have the time (and still don't really) and 2. I wanted to see which users would ask for clarification and for whom. In general, the higher users sounded more genuine and seemed like they were trying to solve the game, while the bottom users seemed more faked to me.

Still wants what he asked for

unvote
vote Lone-Wolf

Random vote much? What is your reason for this? You don't clarify it in your post at all.

Vote: lonewolf

This is good too

Same thing applies to you.

It is a lot easier to fake and preplan your thoughts if you are doing long wall posts, rather than in a quick back and forth where you have to respond on your feet.

That is fine but if youre pages behind youre not talking back and forth so just put it all together.

Right now, I'm actually leaning most toward Lone_Wolf though; the more I think about it, the more that slot bugs me with the "are you town" post, the much later post with some quotes and not much actual analysis on them (and much of what was there was just repeated thoughts from earlier in-thread from other players) or one-liners that don't really provide anything helpful. Like, #226 really is a lot of commenting on things that aren't even game-related so much as stuff like the 60 sec post timer we normally have here. Thinking back on how the thread has progressed, I really can't say that LW contributed much to moving things forward, and frankly they may be trying to put on a show of "actively scumhunting" without really doing so. Whoever mentioned the PR hunting early in the phase (Sunspear maybe?) might be on to something.

I can't fully speak for my partner's early game question as to why he did it but from the other head's perspective it seems like a genuine way to get people talking, you of all people should know that bulba can have some issues when it comes to D1 activity so I'd say it did its job well. Do you truly think that, if we were scum, would use this to look for PR when people can as easily fake it as saying "I'm town"? It's a conversation starter and that's all there is to it from my pov. As for the commenting. It's my usual way I go through walls of text. I try to take in the situation, which can be quite tough with so much happening and two heads, and start to ask some question to people which btw

I can't find your reasoning above, can you quote it?
Depending on your other head isn't the best idea and overall I think basing it on activity isn't AI.

Any reason for unvoting? Who was it anyway?

@thesunspear you havent answered these afaik.

I see a lot of talk about Scumlord and it seems LazySpy is trying make up for the lack of stuff done by their partner but not in panicky scum way. I need to see more from them but it might be a genuine town hydra.

Well, looks like I'm dead.
Unvote: Chillian
Vote: Scumlord and Noobs

You got to be kidding me...
Please try to contribute as much as you can, even if you are certain to do. The best you can do is giving town all the info you can give to help us out.

I just went through about ten pages of what could only be described as shitposting, barely anything worthwhile at all, my brain has been turned to mush from all this information overload everytime I get to the thread.
This is the largest game I've been in, I can hardly keep up with all these posts, let alone trying to filter all the crap out.
I'm inclined to vote for anyone that's made three short posts in a row that could've simply compiled it all into one message just so I don't have to keep dealing with a whole page with two Hydra's posting several posts in a row

Can I double like this post

also i have alignment indicative content. why are you shading me for this? if this is nothing more than a complaint on my posting style then i get it but dismissing my content as "fluff" is sort of offensive and shows you're not really reading. i have the same complaint with @Bok's Lovechild's first post

You do have good content but you also have fluff posts all over.

i just got here what the fuck hapepend

Recent example

catching up

Instantly followed by another one. If you wanna show youre catching up you can let that know by actually saying something useful with it.

@Lone_Wolf okay but gun to head, what's your breakdown of my aunt and the gay? You can't give a non-answer here.

You might actually be worse in shitposting than RR.

My top town reads so far would be:
MNH - Definitely had good contribution and clearly acting to try to catch scum.
Scumlord - The fact that lazy didnt remove the selfvote implies that there was no pressure from fellow mafia to remove it to fix a single head's mistake. One head commited suicide but there is no need to kill the other one for that reason and im sure scum jumped on the wagon

Scumlords and Noobs- 5 (Chillian, ZMS, S&N, thesunspear, T&H)

This makes me suspicious of sun (whose has also been avoiding questions from me) and T&H
However, sunspear does push for activity, sometimes through shitposts though... One head alone would vote him but a combined link suggest otherwise.

Aflame is also looking good to me, trying to actively hunt and ask questions. Their recent discussion with my partner looked a bit off but seems to have been a misunderstanding for not unvoting earlier.
Leetic I would put in town if they would properly explain their list a bit more. Still leaning towards it though as activity can be a pain.

 

[Paul and the band]

you call my first few posts shit? It's not nice to meet you at all.

aw no i didnt mean it like that

also, i really don't know how it slipped my mind that s&n voted themselves, but i don't understand why. there wasn't enough pressure imo to warrant a self vote (as y'all have already noticed)

Well, I'm back. Will have to go to bed soon though...



As a player from Bulba, I see this reaction all the time from frustrated town. My one concern though, is that this doesn't seem to flow naturally with the other posts. I don't really see any major signs of frustration being expressed, which is typical in town implosions, that makes this look awkward and unnatural in context.

you hit it right on the head leetic imo.

 

[Paul and the band]

ok so self-votes are never warranted please just never do it. but i mean like i just wouldn't expect it. it came outta nowhere

 

[Bok's Lovechild]

Yeah, I personally don't think nearly as many of his posts are fluff at all. There are a lot of posts in there that are followup questions/comments to things you regarded as "not fluff" so the whole thing does not really look good to me in general

Guess that's a difference of opinion on what seems to be viewed as contributing or advancing the game. There are definitely some quotes in there that could be viewed either way. Like I said, the major issue was posting things without giving reasoning or thought process behind them. So say if people are discussing mechanics I wouldn't necessarily call that fluff, unless of course they just comment a simple post and don't elaborate.

 

[thesunspear]

You have to unvote before voting again on this forum, which honestly is dumb in the absence of a vote count bot
Why would I answer your dumb questions if you won't answer mine though?

 

[Tommy and Hal]

this post isnt very coherent and doesnt say anything outside of the obvious

yes writing style is a good indicator but that's going to be determined by which site you play on

at the very least this slot demonstrates the impression that they're uncoordinated @Tommy and Hal

I think both them and lonewolf have a good chance of flipping scum. The scumlords people may be incoherent, but the self vote still seems extremely like giving up scum to me. When they skip up like that I think it's hard to justify anything the other head does tbh.

 

[thesunspear]

Guess that's a difference of opinion on what seems to be viewed as contributing or advancing the game. There are definitely some quotes in there that could be viewed either way. Like I said, the major issue was posting things without giving reasoning or thought process behind them. So say if people are discussing mechanics I wouldn't necessarily call that fluff, unless of course they just comment a simple post and don't elaborate.

I am sometimes guilty of making statements without reasoning as a way to bait people into asking more questions. I am not saying that is the case here, and I should let nuxl defend their own hydra, but something to consider.

 

[Bok's Lovechild]

I am sometimes guilty of making statements without reasoning as a way to bait people into asking more questions. I am not saying that is the case here, and I should let nuxl defend their own hydra, but something to consider.

That's fair. It's just hard to discern if that is the case or if it's a case of trying to CWAC sometimes. But you're right. It is something to keep in mind.

 

[Greymon]

So here's most of that read list I promised:

• Aflame: They seem to have a good head(s?) on their shoulders, and the weird stuff they did recently seems to have just been co-ordination issues? Been generally making good, solid comments discounting that recent weirdness.
• Zinn Mask Salesman: They've not really contributed a lot of meaningful content. Especially their most recent posts complaining about the multi-posts which, while somewhat understandable, don’t help anybody at all.
• Hydreigon & Shelgon GX: Not contributing very much at all. They’ve given a couple reasonable points, but not much really concrete. They claim to be busy though, so I’m willing to give them
• Chillian: Who?
• Bok's Lovechild: Rather null honestly. They made a couple good posts and a couple good points, but not really said a lot to really work with.
• Mafia Nursing Home: Good. Making good analysis reads
• Lone Wolf: What do you expect me to say?
• leetic and the band: Null to decent. The early reads list really wasn’t that helpful, but they’ve made good comments. They don’t seem afraid to go against the grain and disagree with general consensus on some things, which bodes well for the slot.
• Scumlords and Noobs: I get the feeling they’re more kinda Town in a rough spot. The implosion is fairly NAI since it’s something that gets done pretty frequently by both alignments here. Lazy seems to be putting in the effort to make decent posts, and it seems like they just got saddled with an unfortunate partner.
• Restless_Ridge: Fairly good, I can remember them making decent points, but I can also remember a lot fluff. So not bad, but not wonderful either. Kinda in the same camp as Bok’s Lovechild with this one.
• thesunspear: I like 'em. When their posts are game-relevant, they're making good efforts to push the game forward. Pushing people for content and calling out sub-par contributions is good. A bit more fluff than I’d like early on, but when they’re on they’re on.

Remind me to do dum dum idiots and Tommy & Hal tomorrow or something. I've been trying to keep going with this thread all day and I'm too mentally exhausted to do real analysis. Heck even the later ones I did write might not be the best. And since I don't really have an opinion on them from memory I can't be arsed looking through to make something for them.

You have to unvote before voting again on this forum, which honestly is dumb in the absence of a vote count bot
Why would I answer your dumb questions if you won't answer mine though?

Actually, I think that’s a ZD thing more than a Bulba thing. I don’t see that as a rule in Bulba too often.

 

[Bok's Lovechild]

Since Restless looks better to me right now, gonna focus on my two other suspects.

Scumlords self voted which is anti-town. Not exactly AI though. As others have said I have seen both alignments self vote. (Also think that this self vote is going to give funnier ptsd after the last game he ran, lol). But I don't know if I've ever seen it when someone wasn't in immediate danger of being lynched. Which makes the situation so bizarre. They only had two votes on them. And while a lot of people are suspicious of them, there were others who were getting just as much suspicion. Kinda feel like scum would be very aware of the amount of votes on them at the moment and would know that self voting wouldn't do anything because they weren't close to maj.

Also the fact that it was an act of only one head could be telling. One would think that scum would discuss it before actually doing it. Could be a ruse and both were in on it but are trying to make it look like a spur of the moment decision. But the more simple answer would be that the one head panicked. I'm not going to let one self vote put them in a town pile, since while it is an easy explanation mafia is a game of deception. More so I'll keep this in consideration while seeing how they progress from here. One town thing doesn't outweigh a ton of scummy behavior.

Gonna post about my other suspect in a separate post, so that will be coming.

 

[Paul and the band]

even if you are a confirmed lynch there's still useful things you can do before you die like a reads list or something for us to look at once we know you're Town

You seem awfully sure that S&N will flip town...

 

[Mafia Nursing Home]

Lone Wolf: What do you expect me to say?

For someone who asked the entire thread if they were town, I'd expect you to say you were town. Just sayin.

 

[Zinn Mask Salesman]

So here's my take on Scumlords and Noobs Self voting. While I've seen both alignments do it, here on Bulba the last time I saw it happen was it the game I played prior to this, Ubers Mafia. In that case we had a Mafioso cracking under pressure and self-voting.

I don't like, it's not Pro-town to me, I'll never be able to let it slide unless the player roleclaims and I can believe it.

 

[Aflame]

I'm surprised that many people see the self-voting as scummy.
I think it's probably a town thing. But it's a terrible move that warrants a lynch (even if only to discourage the actual maffiosi from doing the same just because it works).
Nonetheless, I am more convinced that ZMS is scum. It seems that the Scumlord lynch is gonna go through, which is "okay" but a ZMS lynch would be even better!

 

[Bok's Lovechild]

Onto ZinnMS. Before I only had really one main reason to feel iffy about them. But now that they've posted more they haven't made me feel any better.

First off, I didn't quote the posts because there's quite a few of them and I felt a summary could get my thoughts across just the same. But they talked for a bit about Scumlords CWAC, which is funny because they come across the same way. Actually the SMS half of that hydra feels like he's CWAC all the time to me.

I haven't been posting because it's day one and you can only get so far by saying "that person posts funny"

Regarding Aflame's reads, active = town, not active = mafia? Nice logic, I've seen plenty of super active Mafia, that end up becoming claimed as undeniable town because they took control of reads and the like, and I've seen plenty of inactive town that fail at their jobs and skip night actions, it takes both.

Otherwise I don't really have anything else to say, there's nothing interesting going on until the next day when people have thrown some night actions around and we can actually comment on more substantial information.
I've just seen nothing but shade being thrown around.
~Zinn

Agree on the point of activity not equaling alignment. Seems like people are being town read just for having lots of posts which I don't like. Don't like the failure to comment on anything else though and saying that they want to wait to rely on night actions. Normally day 1 is hard to find any real points of discussion, but there have been plenty here. If you're town here, relying on night actions is dangerous because there's a chance you can die at night. Then, since you didn't want to contribute day 1 town has no info to read of yours to make connections.

Adding to it, in my experience, typically there is at least one very active Mafioso in each game, one you'd never really expect. Each game has different circumstances, and this isn't always the case. But assuming the majority of players are being active, it is rare to see a completely silent Mafioso, I've only seen one player who plays the game frequently on ZD do this occassionally, and I'll get to that point later.

So, I'm super leary of Kokirion, because like Petter, as scum he maintains his cool throughout the thread making him hard to scum read. Not only that, he is super manipulative as scum. So my trust with him is shaky starting out.

On to my other point, the player who avoids the game occassionally as Scum. Doc, the other head of Bok's Lovechild (great hydra name btw, it's a ZD inside joke). All of the posts from that account I've recognized as Minish. I see as I'm writing this that Minish posted a massive post. Anyway, I feel like when Doc avoids the game it's because he is scum. He'll maybe post just enough to reach the minimum. It's something I'm kerping an eye on.

I've never seen Sunfan do that, Moe always does it. It's a staple thing for Moe to do. He also dropped one of those "I'm not getting this from scumchat" remarks earlier in the game, and I knew that was Moe who posted that too.

In any case, yeah, I've always felt like Moe does stuff like that in attempts to get town read, but that's just me.

Going to address all of these quotes at once, because they all feel off for the same reason to me. SMS is giving meta on most of the ZD players here, but some of it seems off. Maybe this is actually how SMS sees them, but I dunno, it doesn't seem to me like the typical meta consensus for them. I do agree with both Pendio (Petter) and Kokirion being composed as both town and scum. But mentioning that he's leary of Kokirion for that and not Pendio seems to be a subtle push to make people not trust Kokirion.

Also, yes Doc is inactive as scum. But Doc is also inactive as town. My meta read on Doc typically comes from a gut feel of how his posts read. But it doesn't come from activity because for him it's usually not AI. And it feels unfair for him to start out saying that he's only seen one player who plays frequently on ZD be silent as scum because that is definitely not true. In fact, another player (Storma) is much worse about it than Doc. Again, feels like subtle shade on someone.

And then the posts about Moe and Sunspear really don't set well with me. Saying "I've never seen Sunfan do that, Moe always does it." is pushing it a bit, considering Sunfan is newer to ZD mafia. He subbed into the end of one game and is playing the ongoing game. To say that you've never seen him do it with barely a full game to go off of is jumping the gun. And maybe I just disregard it, but I don't think Moe always puts himself in a town core. Sure he does say he's town sometimes (maybe often, haven't paid attention to the frequency). But it's not wrong because Moe has never been scum in a ZD game yet. Lol. So you can't say it's in an attempt to get townread, unless he's doing it as scum. Otherwise he's just stating the truth.

I dunno, all of that just felt like SMS trying to misrepresent ZD players metas.

How about all of the active player's go over their thoughts on who they want to lynch?

Asks this after not really contributing much before, and not giving his own thoughts first.

Sure. I'm thinking about voting either Scumlords and Noobs, and if I do make that vote I'll go more in depth. I didn't like the vibe they were giving off early on, is the main reason. But I'm willing to see how the game progresses.

Answers after prompted, which shouldn't have to be the case if you're the one asking everyone to do something. Also don't like the post. "If I do make that vote I'll go more in depth". That's not how this works. Either go in depth on why you want to vote them now, or don't bring it up. Feels like leaving it open for them to vote Scumlords later and come up with reasoning then, while also saying they were always suspicious.

And there isn't a second option to that post, my mind registered Scumlords and Noobs as two names, idk why.

Then this post really makes the last one look bad. Not even aware enough of who they are suspecting to realize that it's one person. Seems like they saw others suspecting Scumlords, people suspecting them, and decided to sheep others on Scumlords.

Vote: Scumlords and Noobs

So what was very interesting to me was that the head at the beginning of the day that pretty much added nothing relevant to the game early on was the more experienced player. And that just seems really off to me. And just all the posts from that hydra seemed like a lot of nothing. There is not a single memorable post they made after 27 pages. Just seems like they were trying to hang on the outskirts, barely posting anything substantial, and not trying to attract much attention.

Again, feels like reasoning added after the fact. If there's not a single memorable post from them, how were they previously giving off a bad vibe early on. Also saying they're trying not to attract much attention when that's not really true. I believe someone else asked why they would post their reads list if they were trying to lay under the radar which is a good point. Especially when so much discussion was about reads lists early on. Scumlords may have looked scummy, but they definitely didn't seem like they were trying to lay low. Another case of ZinnMS misrepresenting what's going on.

It's not a given that I'll stay on that vote anyway. If someone cracks and roleclsoms and it doesn't add up, I'll be changing my vote anyway. That happens a lot on Day 1.

Adds that they'll be changing their votes if someone role claims and it doesn't add up. You shouldn't stop scumhunting until someone maybe "cracks and role claims". And it's hard to tell if a role claim doesn't add up day 1 sometimes, unless there's a counterclaim. Also, may be subtle suggestion to try and draw out a town claim.


Vote: Zinn Mask Salesman

 

[Tommy and Hal]

Scumlord - The fact that lazy didnt remove the selfvote implies that there was no pressure from fellow mafia to remove it to fix a single head's mistake. One head commited suicide but there is no need to kill the other one for that reason and im sure scum jumped on the wagon

@Restless_Ridge this feels tmi/slippy

 

[Tommy and Hal]

unvote: scumlords
vote: lone wolf