What are your thoughts on Tracey and Max?

[Pie]

When May first arrived people were stunned, but after the shock of Misty being gone eventually settled in, May became a well-received character. Same for Dawn. It's like I said in my opening post, the writers do a much better job introducing new female characters than they do new male characters.

It's worth noting that a significant number of fans left the fandom as soon as Misty was gone. There were many people who thought the show jumped the shark (Sharpedo?) when Brock left, but he came back soon enough that it didn't have too big of an impact. There still are plenty of people who feel the show jumped the shark (Garchomp?) when Misty left, though.

But it's hard to find them because, well, they're not in the fandom anymore, so it's not like you can see them posting on the forums or voting in polls. I've found most of the ones I've run into by bringing it up on different livejournal communities and luring people in conversations about the series by holding Pokémon plushies at anime conventions.

I also find it hard pressed to believe that if they took out Brock now, that anyone would care on the same level as when Misty or May were removed.

Maybe not. It's impossible to deny that he doesn't get the same level of appreciation as other characters. But I can say with some confidence that plenty of people would care. Especially when one considers that they've really been giving him some well-deserved attention finally.

You can go ahead and call me biased on this next part, but: Brock is an excellent character, and I would argue that he is one of the most, if not the most, dynamic and multi-faceted characters in the series. Seriously, I've tried expanding the articles of the other characters to the same level that I've expanded Brock's article on Bulbapedia, and... it's difficult, to say the least. But in DP, I think we're seeing the best of his character more than ever, as both a comic relief and a serious character - though it's still restricted by the fact that he's there to support Ash and Dawn, and I think a lot of Brock's fans understand and respect this fact. (Even if it would be awesome if he had a more active role in the plot.)

Tracey and Max were both so-so. Yes, both got shafted by not getting the focus and development they deserved. But Brock was filling the same spot as them since the fifth episode, and even co-filling it with Max through AG and BF when there was even less room in that role to share. He was shafted, too, and unless they finally reach the point that they can adequately juggle three main plots, any character who could replace him would be shafted, too. And despite being in such a difficult role to fill, he's got more fans than both of them combined (even if that's not saying much) and a well-developed character whose antics are only beat by those of Team Rocket.

And that is, in my opinion, why he's still here.

 

[Cybersai]

It's worth noting that a significant number of fans left the fandom as soon as Misty was gone. There were many people who thought the show jumped the shark (Sharpedo?) when Brock left, but he came back soon enough that it didn't have too big of an impact. There still are plenty of people who feel the show jumped the shark (Garchomp?) when Misty left, though.

Yes, we're aware. Its just people who thought Misty was going to be in the show forever and were burned when the writers moved the show into a new direction that lacked Misty so they decided to stop watching. Had Dawn been introduced at the start of AG instead of May, it would be to the same effect. There is no doubt in my mind that had Misty survived the transition into AG and been there alongside May, most of those people wouldn't have had much of a problem at all. It's just the simple fact that Misty, the main girl from day 1, was ditched, and that bothered them too much that they couldn't get used to a new girl traveling with Ash. Of course that was back then, and now in retrospect its not a big deal.

It's also worth nothing that the writers didn't seem to think their decision was wrong either, hence why Misty was never brought back into the anime to this day...5 years and 220+ episodes later. Dawn is here to reproduce the success for D/P that they had with May for AG, and they must not think Misty will do anything for the series otherwise, which is why we hardly see her anymore even in cameos.

For those of us who didn't think that was a big deal, we were rewarded because AG was a drastic improvement over Johto quality wise and D/P is very good as well. We know the strides the writers made with the show since then, those people don't, hence why its easy for them to say, "Oh the show became crap" or "It jumped the shark!" simply because Misty was written off. These are people who just want the original trio together for the entire series, and don't want any status quo changes at all.

It's also worth noting however there are a number of people in the fandom who stopped watching the anime in the middle of Johto because they got bored of the same thing over and over, and then got back into the show when AG started. May is considered by many in the fandom to be the character who helped bring some excitement back into the show after the dull Johto era, especially since we had Contests and a female protagonist in a leading role for the first time. Believe me, there was a ton of excitement in the fandom when AG came out in Japan for the first time. People wanted KidsWb to rush through the end of Master Quest just so we could get to the Hoenn episodes faster. It works both ways, but I would say the people who stuck with the show know how much the writing improved as we went on.

Maybe not. It's impossible to deny that he doesn't get the same level of appreciation as other characters. But I can say with some confidence that plenty of people would care. Especially when one considers that they've really been giving him some well-deserved attention finally.

And despite being in such a difficult role to fill, he's got more fans than both of them combined (even if that's not saying much) and a well-developed character whose antics are only beat by those of Team Rocket.

And that is, in my opinion, why he's still here.

True, but the fact is they only tried once with Tracey, and one so-so character doesn't mean they'll always be so-so. I don't count Max since he was introduced just for May to play off of, rather than a true male sidekick who could take Brock's place.

There's countless ideas they could come up with for a new male sidekick. I'm sure they can produce a good one. For all we know Brock's getting better treatment in D/P because the writers want his last saga to go out with a bang, rather than a whimper...like Misty in Johto. He'll be here for at least the entire 4th gen I assume, but come 5th gen I don't know if they're going to reuse the Ash + Brock + new girl formula for the third time in a row.

 

[Pie]

There's countless ideas they could come up with for a new male sidekick. I'm sure they can produce a good one. For all we know Brock's getting better treatment in D/P because the writers want his last saga to go out with a bang, rather than a whimper...like Misty in Johto. He'll be here for at least the entire 4th gen I assume, but come 5th gen I don't know if they're going to reuse the Ash + Brock + new girl formula for the third time in a row.

Yes. You don't know. I think that's an important point.

Scott, please recall about a year ago. You were rather determined in arguing that May had to stay and that Brock had a good chance of leaving.

Speculate all you want, but if Brock's been around this long, he must be doing something right, don't you think? And if it were so easy to replace Brock, why didn't they already do it? Battle Frontier was enough to give May a last hurrah. But Brock's still here for another large saga.

On that note, if it's so easy to come up with a good male sidekick, then do it. Write me out profiles for at least three male sidekicks. Each one with a distinct personality as detailed as the one found on Brock's Bulbapedia profile, with no goals so large that they would push them out of their place as a supporting character, details on how they would work in the group as a serious character and as a comic relief, etc. Since there's countless options, this should be a breeze, right? And no rehashing. Since you hate it so much.

Or you can just admit that Brock's not a bad character. Either or. Mostly, I'm putting this challenge up out of curiosity, to see to what lengths you'll argue against Brock's character.

 

[Habunake]

Brock's been virtually embedded in the show, so much that he has merged with the background itself.

Like...without him...it'd be...odd. Not bad odd, but odd.

 

[Cybersai]

Scott, please recall about a year ago. You were rather determined in arguing that May had to stay and that Brock had a good chance of leaving.

Speculate all you want, but if Brock's been around this long, he must be doing something right, don't you think? And if it were so easy to replace Brock, why didn't they already do it? Battle Frontier was enough to give May a last hurrah. But Brock's still here for another large saga.

I did speculate that May would stay for D/P, and we can see now that I was wrong. Since we knew Contests were going to be in the games, I thought the writers would continue to use the same character to advertise them in the anime. That is reasonable, isn't it? Almost nobody thought at the time that Dawn was simply going to be another coordinator, most people thought that either Contests were getting ditched or Dawn was getting her own spinoff show seperate from Ash. I thought like Ash was the main Gym advertisement in the anime, that May would be the main Contest advertisement in the anime. Obviously it turned out that I was wrong.

All I'm telling you is, don't make the same mistake the Misty and May fandom made with assuming their characters would be around forever. Its exactly why both fandoms were so shocked when the switch came. Both girls were very popular characters in their respective sagas, so it would seem that popularity is not enough to save a character if the writers want to do something different. (and with May you have to factor in Drew and Harley's popularity as well, they were also ditched)

Brock is still here for the longest time, but until one of the writers come out and say he's a permanant character, we can speculate he may not be. There's no reason to worry about this now, because D/P is bound to be 100+ episodes so he's safe for at least the next three years. However we know he's not of the Ash or Team Rocket importance to the anime, and if they need to advertise some gimmick in the show that neither Ash or the token girl can do, then Brock may be written out.

Hell, right now I'd say its a good bet that Dawn will be leaving when the 5th gen starts. Right now its unthinkable, but 190 episodes from now will be a different story. We have no idea what the 5th gen might bring so we have no clue what Brock's role will be. I know you don't want to think about it, but I repeat....try not to repeat the mistakes of the Misty or May fandom. If you don't make that mistake, then if Brock eventually leaves, it won't be as big a shock if/when the time comes.

Or you can just admit that Brock's not a bad character. Either or. Mostly, I'm putting this challenge up out of curiosity, to see to what lengths you'll argue against Brock's character.

Brock's not a bad character, I've never disliked Brock. Believe it or not, he used to be one of my favorites, but now he's just kind of "there" for me now. The writers just never use him to his full potential. My opinion of him throughout the sagas is like this:

I liked Brock a lot in Kanto, missed him in Orange, liked him in Johto, started to think he was getting a little pointless in Hoenn, grew kinda bored with him in Battle Frontier (outside of his spotlight eps, the Pewter Gym ep was excellent, ), and now in D/P I just only really like his Pokemon. When the biggest reason I like a character is because he's Croagunk's punching bag...then eh, somethings up. Sudowoodo is completely awesome, but it suffers the same fate as most of Brock's Pokemon...we don't get to see it much. :/

As for creating a new male sidekick, there's lots of ways to make a new and improved Tracey, or rather, try to make a character that is more likeable than Tracey and almost on the same level as Brock. I mean I'm not going to start a fanfiction in this thread and start coming up with my own characters, but we both know it can be done.

If the writers can create new girl characters every few seasons and make them likeable characters, who is to say they can't do the same with a male sidekick? I don't think May and Dawn would have been anywhere near as popular as they are (all fanservice aside) if the writers didn't do such a good job with them. Tracey was the first replacement the writers ever did, and that's probably why he didn't turn out so special. I think they've learned how to create more compelling characters since then.

 

[Pie]

All I'm telling you is, don't make the same mistake the Misty and May fandom made with assuming their characters would be around forever. Its exactly why both fandoms were so shocked when the switch came. Both girls were very popular characters in their respective sagas, so it would seem that popularity is not enough to save a character if the writers want to do something different. (and with May you have to factor in Drew and Harley's popularity as well, they were also ditched)

Brock is still here for the longest time, but until one of the writers come out and say he's a permanant character, we can speculate he may not be. There's no reason to worry about this now, because D/P is bound to be 100+ episodes so he's safe for at least the next three years. However we know he's not of the Ash or Team Rocket importance to the anime, and if they need to advertise some gimmick in the show that neither Ash or the token girl can do, then Brock may be written out.

Hell, right now I'd say its a good bet that Dawn will be leaving when the 5th gen starts. Right now its unthinkable, but 190 episodes from now will be a different story. We have no idea what the 5th gen might bring so we have no clue what Brock's role will be. I know you don't want to think about it, but I repeat....try not to repeat the mistakes of the Misty or May fandom. If you don't make that mistake, then if Brock eventually leaves, it won't be as big a shock if/when the time comes.

Scott, you don't need to tell me that Brock's an endangered character. No one was sweating more than me when DP was coming. I think they definitely had good reason to keep him around, and I'm so glad they did, but believe me - there's only a few characters who'd I be shocked if I saw 'em leave, and Brock's not one of them.

But on the other hand, I'd warn all of you not to assume Brock's days are numbered, especially not on the grounds of him being a bad or unpopular character. People were willing to place high bets on his departure before and were wrong, and we're now looking at him at one of his best moments. His future could go easily go either way, which means we could see him around for many years still. Or he could be gone after DP. I hope not, but we're only a year into DP - forecasting is hard enough at the end of a saga.

Brock's not a bad character, I've never disliked Brock. Believe it or not, he used to be one of my favorites, but now he's just kind of "there" for me now. The writers just never use him to his full potential. My opinion of him throughout the sagas is like this:

I liked Brock a lot in Kanto, missed him in Orange, liked him in Johto, started to think he was getting a little pointless in Hoenn, grew kinda bored with him in Battle Frontier (outside of his spotlight eps, the Pewter Gym ep was excellent, ), and now in D/P I just only really like his Pokemon. When the biggest reason I like a character is because he's Croagunk's punching bag...then eh, somethings up. Sudowoodo is completely awesome, but it suffers the same fate as most of Brock's Pokemon...we don't get to see it much. :/

Well, first off, yes, it would be awesome if they did more with him. Hell, he's already shown he could be the one doing contests. But it took 'em long enough to figure out how to balance two plots well, and if they're gonna have anyone as a counterpart to Ash, it'll be a female character, so... unfortunately, chances of seeing him or anyone else as more than a supporting character are low. So factoring that against him isn't fair.

Considering that? You have seen the sort of stuff he's been doing in DP, right? Or have you been too busy trying to get a peek up Dawn's skirt? He is an awesome character, and it does suck that they stick him in the role they do - but he fills that role much better than certain people I could name give him credit for.

As for creating a new male sidekick, there's lots of ways to make a new and improved Tracey, or rather, try to make a character that is more likeable than Tracey and almost on the same level as Brock. I mean I'm not going to start a fanfiction in this thread and start coming up with my own characters, but we both know it can be done.

If the writers can create new girl characters every few seasons and make them likeable characters, who is to say they can't do the same with a male sidekick? I don't think May and Dawn would have been anywhere near as popular as they are (all fanservice aside) if the writers didn't do such a good job with them. Tracey was the first replacement the writers ever did, and that's probably why he didn't turn out so special. I think they've learned how to create more compelling characters since then.

Scott, in my opinion, Tracey was not a bad character. And that probably would have shown more if he hadn't been in the "shafted" role.

But Brock got shafted the same amount, and yet he's still a fairly well-loved character. Name one other character whose biggest problem is "we don't see him enough"! I would argue that he really is an exceptional character, and it's rare that we see ones like him from the series. He is filling a difficult role, and he's filling it well.

And while there are advertising reasons to switch the female characters, when it comes to Brock - why fix what's not broken? Especially when even matching Brock would be difficult? I'm glad they haven't fully switched him out since Orange Islands, and I can only hope he'll be Ash's closest traveling companion for far into the future.

 

[Traceys-gal]

Tracey and Max happen to be two of my fave characters!

There's a reason I'm always emotional and frightened around Easter (Good Friday to be exact) and on the first year anniversary of that event, I was watching Pokemon and pondering on how I was going to deal with the day I was facing. Suddenly, I discovered that dear Tracey was on (episode was Bulbasaur the Ambassador) and that brightened my mood so much I forgot to be afraid when I set foot outside the house.
When I feel depressed these days, I watch my fave episodes of the Orange Islands arc and I start to feel a little better when I see Tracey's smile.
Not to mention often hearing him say how much he desired to meet Prof. Oak and in the end actually doing so inspired me to strive for my life goals.

Max is an adorable character, a kid so young actually going out into the world with three others who are only a few years older than him! That amazes me, I would be too frightened whereas Max is the type of brave little kid I wanted to be. Even these days I envy him as I'm too over-cautious.
Okay, I can't say much else, I still have yet to see most of the Advance eps (they're always on when I'm asleep!!!).

 

[Rocketshipper]

but they remove the main girls all the time which causes backlash, so they probably aren't too concerned by angry fans in the fandom. I think the difference is Tracey wasn't a well-received replacement like the new girls were.

I'm not sure that theory works, considering that Tracey barely had any time at all to be "recieved" in the first place. The writers are always at least 15 or 20 episodes ahead of whatever episode's been aired. They would have barely had a handful of episodes in which to gage fan reaction before deciding to keep him or ditch him. The fan reaction would have had to have been huge, within the first few episodes of his apperance, for them to have had time to take him out.

 

[Cybersai]

Hm, this is an old thread that was bumped.

The fan reaction would have had to have been huge, within the first few episodes of his apperance, for them to have had time to take him out.

That's what you always hear happened. I really don't see why the writers would introduce a new character, just keep him for 30 eps, and ditch him completely otherwise. Prof. Oak didn't *need* a lab assitant, you could pretty much chop Tracey's existance from the anime entirely and it wouldn't change much. (That sounds harsh I know, but its the truth).

A character swap that early on in the series was also unneeded. Kanto was only 81 eps long, Brock and Misty were still fresh characters at the time...so I can see why when the show first started it was rather alarming to see one of the main characters replaced so quickly. By the end of Johto the show had gone on for 5 seasons, and by then a character swap was more acceptable, especially since Misty was not really doing anything for the anime at that point, and needed to be replaced to keep the show fresh. I also stand by the belief that Misty was never brought back into the anime because May and Contests were such a success, and after Hoenn ended they continued that in BF, and after that ended they introduced Dawn to repeat that same success with the next series.

Hell, the fact that Misty, unlike Brock, never made a return to the anime says a lot. This seems to indicate that the writers have SOME knowledge of which characters go over well with the fans. If it came to Battle Frontier having Misty re-join the group with Azurill, or another year of May/Drew/Harley and Contests, the writers chose the latter for their obvious popularity in the fandom. A saga based in the Kanto region including an R/S character like May and Contests but NOT a Kanto character like Misty is rather telling, I'd think. Even though you do see people wanting Misty to return to the anime, they must apparently not make up the general consensus, or maybe it was the fact that May was just more popular when AG was airing, which was easy to see.

It also strikes me as interesing as to how many fans the new characters have in the anime. Tracey's fanbase seems rather small, and seems to be appreciated mostly as a nostalgia character. You almost never hear much praise for him, and he's mostly forgotten. Max...is the same case, especially since he was unfairly hated by a lot of people just because he had no Pokemon.

Hence why I made this thread, it doesn't seem like a lot of people care about Tracey or Max, and if they do, they never talk about them. I would say they're probably underappreciated characters, but at the same time I can understand since the writers could have done more with both of them than they did.

 

[Gamma Akutabi]

I always prefered Tracy over Max, mostly in part due to the fact that Tracy's story was, in my opinion, more devolped.

 

[BFAL]

I liked Tracy, he didn´t do so much but what was he to do in the OL? Ash was on a busy scheduale, fighting rather often so no big arc was needed for Tracey. Tracey was also a bit funny I think.

Max, I liked him a lot. He and May had great sibbling moments. But the thing that really made me like Max is how he and Ash was interacting. Max admired Ash as a person and looked up and longed for the same skills Ash had as a trainer. The two of them had numerous brother- moments, in which Ash almost took over Mays role as sibbling. They did stuffs together as two brothers would have done. Max was a great part of the team and really had an impact on Ash. The Last Promise was the final moment for them, Ash promising Max a battle one day. For me it was one of the greatest moments in the BF series.

About replacing characters. The difference is big between the send off of the different characters. Mistys send off will never be matched by anything or anyone. Gotta Catch Ya Later is one of the sadest eps in the entire series and Home is where the start is are way behind, and now I really like that ep.

The shock of losing Misty will always be more sad than the send off of May, Max, Dawn (in the far future) cause she was the FIRST character to be written out. Now she only makes cameos and 1 - 3 eps apperences.

 

[Snake Bandage]

Uh, technically, the first character to be "written out" (judging by cameos and Hoso, no one important really gets written out of the Pokemon anime canon) was Brock, and that caused quite an outrage back in the day too. No, the reason why Misty's sendoff was so much more emotional was because she was there from episode one of the first series, and she's been traveling with Ash what, five real world years? She's his first human companion. The fans got a lot more time to get attached to her.

Hmmm. Random thought. If they got rid of Team Rocket now, after over 500 episodes, the fandom outrage will make the reactions to Brock's initial departure and Misty leaving look like minor, every-day whining.

 

[BFAL]

Yeah, Brock leaved but he returned so soon that I really don´t count him as written out once, just missing a short period of the series run.

 

[Cybersai]

Misty had an emotional farewell because as you said, this was the first time a major cast member (and a female one) was leaving the series.

When May departed, it was routine, so the writers didn't make it out to be a sad moment. If Dawn leaves as well, I imagine her departure will be similar to hers too. You're also forgetting that Misty left the show without doing much in any of the prior episodes, whereas the writers purposely wrote the end of BF so that May would have one last final battle with Ash, evolve her Blaziken, and split the ribbon with Ash as a tie.

A lot of people seem to forget factoring that in to May's farewell, but I thought Ash/May tying in a Contest and splitting the ribbon together was just as great an emotional moment as any other, and a perfect way to show how May had grown in the series.

 

[Yamato-san]

judging by cameos and Hoso, no one important really gets written out of the Pokemon anime canon

except for Professor Uchikido, Gym Leaders that aren't Takeshi, Kasumi, or to a lesser extent Sakaki (it seems odd that they tend to be practically forgotten after their battle, and even odder that several get a single episode to their name, in spite of how much these characters appear in promotional material), practically the entire cast of the Crystal special, Gantetsu (the guy holding onto the fucking GS Ball), Daigo (who was actually supposed to do more if the anime didn't cop out like it did on adapting the Advanced games), anyone in Magma/Aqua Dan, likely anyone in Ginga Dan (once their arc's finished), likely Momi as well, and I kinda have a suspicion that Robert, Enishida, and Hinata have all dropped off the face of the earth. And though they probably weren't gonna do much with the one-shot contest rivals in the first place, it's both a shame and really fucked up that Grace was nowhere in sight at the Grand Festival (honestly, she had three ribbons, and that was when Haruka was only getting her first), or even getting a small appearance like the others.

Let's not forget about Masamune, Kaede, Tetsuya, Moe, Corm, Kaoruko, even the blatant advertisement that is Hadzuki, and any other future league rival who's gotta be about a billion times better than Hiroshi ever was (I can only hope Silver gets to appear more. That, and Hiroshi finally getting his sorry ass kicked by Satoshi, would be the only good things to come out of his further showcasings). I'm tempted to bring up Professor Utsugi as well if not for the fact that the producers recognized he's still alive in the Mirage Pokemon special (speaking of professors, Odamaki's probably fallen into obscurity as well now that AG's done with, and even if we saw more of Haruka, she's apparently using Ookido's lab/her house for Pokemon storage).

 

[BFAL]

Mays departue was very good, the battle and the sharing of victory but they did put focus on Max which made his send off almost in the ranks of May. Misty had more than 50 % of the time when she, Ash and Brock departed.

Don´t get me wrong, I agree, the send off of May and Max was great but I still thinks that the one with Misty will count highest cause the sheer shock and emotions within the fanbase. Mays was a bit sad but we saw it comming.

 

[Keruri]

Pokemon is the least plot-driven anime I've ever seen.

I'm sorry, but I just have to comment on this. Pokémon revolves around gyms, battles, captures, contests, friendship, etc. I'd consider that a somewhat decent plot, though the fillers (*cough*JOHTO*cough*) are/were normally fairly random.

However, you obviously haven't seen Lucky Star or Pani Poni Dash. I suggest you take a look at those and see what I mean. That's where someone decides, "hey, let's make some characters and a setting, and then have the characters do completely random things throughout the entire 26 episode run." XDD;

Back on topic.... I completely agree with deadpan about Max. I also really liked Tracey a lot, though he is better as Oak's assistant, in my opinion. We do need to see him more.... Ah, and I also agree that Brock would've been better off leaving sooner.

Wow. This post was useless. I need to refrain from posting when I don't need to.