Mafia Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: END GAME! TOWN WINS 21/06/14

[GastlyGibus]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

And right at this moment, do you think this negatively impacted town?
I have no idea of people's alignments in this game, I didn't know whether she was town, independent or mafia, but I thought it was better to do something, than to leave it at no lynch.
And I ask again - do you think Midorikawa dying negatively impacted the town? We now have a-whole-nother 48 hours to discuss this, and it's not good to be fixated on the exact same situation of day one. What's it gonna be down, 48 hours of people accusing and defending oswin? Why don't we forget about it currently because day one lynches usually mean nothing.

Dead town members always negatively impact the town. It brings the mafia one step closer to victory, as we're essentially doing their job for them.

While obviously, it would be realistically impossible for us to never have a mislynch, the fact that you're casually waving off the mislynch with "Oh, well it helped us anyways" is not helping. Dead town members never help us. The only situation I can think of where a town death would be beneficial would be if the town member was a bomb and took out a mafia member on their death, and even still, we still lose a town member in that process, so it's not 100% positive.

Day one lynches don't "mean nothing." On the contrary, day one lynches can be just as revealing as any other day. It's silly to just dismiss an entire day of voting habits just because they were day one.

So, I ask you again. Why did you vote Midorikawa? What did she do that warranted a vote at the last minute? I'd like a reason other than "she was pursuing Oswin," because, at the moment, a lot of us were pursuing Oswin. You hopped on the bandwagon at the last minute, and didn't provide any reasoning for it other than "Oswin doesn't look suspicious to me."

 

[Beck]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

I would also like to hear more from Zima. She's at the top of my list, currently.

And right at this moment, do you think this negatively impacted town?
I have no idea of people's alignments in this game, I didn't know whether she was town, independent or mafia, but I thought it was better to do something, than to leave it at no lynch.
And I ask again - do you think Midorikawa dying negatively impacted the town? We now have a-whole-nother 48 hours to discuss this, and it's not good to be fixated on the exact same situation of day one. What's it gonna be down, 48 hours of people accusing and defending oswin? Why don't we forget about it currently because day one lynches usually mean nothing.

Dead town members always negatively impact the town. It brings the mafia one step closer to victory, as we're essentially doing their job for them.

While obviously, it would be realistically impossible for us to never have a mislynch, the fact that you're casually waving off the mislynch with "Oh, well it helped us anyways" is not helping. Dead town members never help us. The only situation I can think of where a town death would be beneficial would be if the town member was a bomb and took out a mafia member on their death, and even still, we still lose a town member in that process, so it's not 100% positive.

Day one lynches don't "mean nothing." On the contrary, day one lynches can be just as revealing as any other day. It's silly to just dismiss an entire day of voting habits just because they were day one.

So, I ask you again. Why did you vote Midorikawa? What did she do that warranted a vote at the last minute? I'd like a reason other than "she was pursuing Oswin," because, at the moment, a lot of us were pursuing Oswin. You hopped on the bandwagon at the last minute, and didn't provide any reasoning for it other than "Oswin doesn't look suspicious to me."

This is a general statement, and is in no way a defense for Froakie, but I can't disagree with her. I think that Midori's death, although unfortunate, was beneficial to the Town. I mean, it's a shame that we lost a Townie, but it's pushed the game forward in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise. How else would we get the vote count that is so essential to today's discussion? I can't imagine what we would do with a No Lynch. All I'm saying is that death in this game, on both sides, is necessary and productive, so long as it is calculated and well thought out. I agree, however, that lynching for the sake of lynching is a waste of our time (which did not happen yesterday).

You're playing the pro-Town card awfully hard right now. Let's all be realistic.

 

[GastlyGibus]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

All I'm saying is that death in this game, on both sides, is necessary and productive, so long as it is calculated and well thought out.

And therein lies the problem. I don't think that was "calculated and well thought out." The reasoning provided for the lynch was, at best, dubious. All I saw was a bandwagon that went out of hand for a simple misunderstanding.

 

[Froakie]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

I don't see a problem with a bandwagon on day one even if it's for no reason.

It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and claim how you didn't join in and hence make everyone who did look bad. It's just too easy to do that, yet it doesn't clear you and it also holds no credibility towards any of the participants in the bandwagon being anything but town.

 

[GastlyGibus]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

I don't see a problem with a bandwagon on day one even if it's for no reason.

It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and claim how you didn't join in and hence make everyone who did look bad. It's just too easy to do that, yet it doesn't clear you and it also holds no credibility towards any of the participants in the bandwagon being anything but town.

Can you clarify this, please? If I'm reading this correctly, are you trying to assert that all the participants in the bandwagon were town?

 

[Froakie]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

I'm asserting that it doesn't make them not town.

 

[GastlyGibus]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

I disagree. Mafia love bandwagons, especially against town members. It allows them to get a mislynch in without seeming out of place, because a majority of players are also participating.

Also, you haven't answered my question yet. Why did you vote Midorikawa?

 

[Froakie]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Of course mafia want bandwagons to get rid of town members, but it still doesn't make everyone in that bandwagon mafia. You said you FoS everyone in it, well there were more people in it than there are mafia members, so you're FoS'ing probably several town members. It doesn't mean anything to just FoS loads of people. I could say I FoS everyone because I have no idea of what alignment anyone is, so they could all be mafia.

I already explained why I voted Mido, between her and Oswin I thought the reasoning against Oswin wasn't necessarily great so out of the two I'd rather vote for Mido. Is that enough of a reason?

 

[GastlyGibus]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Of course mafia want bandwagons to get rid of town members, but it still doesn't make everyone in that bandwagon mafia. You said you FoS everyone in it, well there were more people in it than there are mafia members, so you're FoS'ing probably several town members. It doesn't mean anything to just FoS loads of people. I could say I FoS everyone because I have no idea of what alignment anyone is, so they could all be mafia.

The FoS isn't an accusation of mafia, it's a declaration of suspicion. All of the reasoning used against Mido was silly, so naturally I became suspicious of everybody who went and voted her. Maybe some are mafia, maybe none are and their logic just doesn't make any sense; either way, the FoS is more "I am suspicious of your actions and would like an explanation" and not "I think you are all mafia."

I already explained why I voted Mido, between her and Oswin I thought the reasoning against Oswin wasn't necessarily great so out of the two I'd rather vote for Mido. Is that enough of a reason?

You say that as if they were the only two options, which is untrue. You had multiple players with which to build a case against, but you came in a jumped on the bandwagon. The only reasoning you provided was "I don't think Oswin is guilty," and basically left it at that. You say now that Mido's death was beneficial, but before she was lynched, you had no way of knowing that. She could have been a bomb, or a lover, and we would have lost more town members. Just because her death prevented the nightkill doesn't mean it was necessarily a good thing.

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

You say that as if they were the only two options, which is untrue. You had multiple players with which to build a case against, but you came in a jumped on the bandwagon. The only reasoning you provided was "I don't think Oswin is guilty," and basically left it at that. You say now that Mido's death was beneficial, but before she was lynched, you had no way of knowing that. She could have been a bomb, or a lover, and we would have lost more town members. Just because her death prevented the nightkill doesn't mean it was necessarily a good thing.

She really did have two options where a vote would matter at that point, and she even said there were like 3 hours left, and despite what I said and debated about neither Oswin or Midorikawa being good lynches, neither side removed a vote, why would she vote anyone if at that point her vote would not matter and be pointless? She could build a case against somebody later when there would be more information, and while there could have been other options at that time, she might have also not thought of anyone else to be scummy. Although I agree that if she didn't think that Midorikawa might flip Mafia, it's strange.

 

[Soulmaster]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

So, Vote: Soulmaster

We still have like 36 hours, I'd like to see you talk more.

Um, hate to burst your bubble, but if you remember this is my normal playstyle. I basically wait, defend myself if needed, bnut then pull a rabbit out of my hat late game. So if you are just voting me because I have made all of 2 posts, other than joining/confirming, you don't really remember that.
You say you want me to talk more, what about? What's better to do, if you don't have anything to add to the discussion, say mostly random stuff, or say nothing? Because I really don't, from what people have said, their points against Zima make sense, as well as the ones against Oswin. So "I agree with above"? Does that pass as saying more?

 

[Oswin]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

You don't have to say random stuff, just give your opinions or thoughts on everyone's behaviour and any suspicions you may have. To me, it looks more suspicious if you say nothing, even though you may actually have nothing to add (it does happen) compared to trying to help the town.

 

[FinalArcadia]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

I'm still very suspicious of Oswin for the same reasons I'd said last phase, but there are some other things I'd like to attend to before placing a vote on him (or someone else).

I can't see a member of the Mafia place a vote on a joke vote, and then keep it, despite all of the attention. It's clearly suicidal.

But it could be just as bad to seem wishy-washy and remove a joke vote once you’re being questioned on it, since then it appears that the person is trying to appease everyone or go with the flow to avoid suspicion.

And I ask again - do you think Midorikawa dying negatively impacted the town? We now have a-whole-nother 48 hours to discuss this, and it's not good to be fixated on the exact same situation of day one. What's it gonna be down, 48 hours of people accusing and defending oswin? Why don't we forget about it currently because day one lynches usually mean nothing.

But this is a very specific and uncommon situation that resulted from Midori's lynch. On D1, nobody (outside of thanks to claims, which I doubt happened) could know that we'd get another day phase and avoid a night kill by lynching Midori; in fact I doubt that was so much as a possibility to anyone. It doesn't seem so bad thanks to having another day, but had she been some other ability, it'd be a little harder to make that case that her death didn't negatively impact town.

However, I do agree that a lynch does give us something to work with and in that regard it's good in a way even if it was on town, though I don't agree it should have been on Midori who's behavior didn't come off as suspicious (in my opinion). But I don't understand how if you think that D1 lynches are beneficial that you're also saying D1 lynches usually mean nothing? If they usually mean nothing, then what is the benefit they give us? Saying they often mean nothing sounds as though there's no info to gleam from them, but there definitely is and knowing what Midori flipped does warrant some questioning to those who voted her. Similarly:

I don't see a problem with a bandwagon on day one even if it's for no reason.

But if you say D1 lynches usually mean nothing then what good is a bandwagon (especially if one had no reason)? What would it bring other than a chance for hitting mafia but also a chance for hitting town? I'm all for avoiding a no lynch on D1, but I'm just not understanding what you're getting at with support of bandwagons without much reason, unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant with "day one lynches usually mean nothing."

 

[Farfetchd the Vigilante]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Vote : Zima


She's only posted twice this entire game. Once to joke vote, and one to ask Midorikawa to explain her vote for Gastly Gibus.

Midorikawa explained the vote fairly logicly, and Zima still did not remove the vote. Even after questioning her why this was, she didn't justify a reason why.

When she plays as mafia, she posts once or twice a phase, then recedes back into hiding. This has stayed true, and is true of her for this game.

I am extremely suspicious of her. She hasn't responded at all.

Hopefully this also leads to some discussion.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Well I really expected mido to turn out mafia so I don't have much to say anymore. @GastlyGibus; you're wrong though, mafia love watching innocents slaughter each other from the sidelines way more than doing it themselves and what I personally actually consider a good mafia tell is when someone constantly tries to stay neutral between conflicts as to not rub anyone the wrong way.

 

[Zexy]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

In fact, I believe that there can be mafia both in and outside the bandwagon. The mafiosi inside try to force lynches, and the outside to stay hidden. But there is also WIFOM, so it would make more sense if they were all around.

FoS doesn’t mean much, because if that is the case, we can and should also FoS everyone in Oswin’s wagon as well as those who did not participate. In the broad sense, everyone.

What is important is to figure out is which of the people at each case have acted more scummily, and for this we should stick to individual approaches. It is just easier to get reads on those who were fast to vote rather than those who did not.

On Froakie’s case, what I find suspicious is that she placed the last vote (unfortunately, all defenses on that regard would include a sheer amount of WIFOM) and that she pretty much did not give a single reason for voting Midorikawa, and now that we point it out, she still does not give stable reasoning, instead focusing on what should we do with the Day 1 voting patterns, as well as the fact that Mido’s vote did not hurt the town pretty much, although she could not know at the point she placed the vote.

She really did have two options where a vote would matter at that point, and she even said there were like 3 hours left, and despite what I said and debated about neither Oswin or Midorikawa being good lynches, neither side removed a vote, why would she vote anyone if at that point her vote would not matter and be pointless? She could build a case against somebody later when there would be more information, and while there could have been other options at that time, she might have also not thought of anyone else to be scummy. Although I agree that if she didn't think that Midorikawa might flip Mafia, it's strange.

Just because there was too little time for adequate defense from either side, plus the fact that the votes were tied at the point, it is that last vote that forced the lynch on Mido, so her vote was nothing but pointless of course. Indeed she could, and now she did (Soulmaster). It would indeed not make sense to vote someone else at that point, but she still voted Mido anyways, without giving any reason of why she is scummy, but because “Oswin is not scummy”. It’s like she was compelled to place a vote anyways, this is what I found strange.

As for Soulmaster, I really don’t know. I have not played in a game with him before, if his playstyle is indeed that I can’t say much. The fact that Froakie called on him of all people is what makes me confused, she makes sense but also just redirected attention to him when she was to defend.

Vote : Zima


She's only posted twice this entire game. Once to joke vote, and one to ask Midorikawa to explain her vote for Gastly Gibus.

Midorikawa explained the vote fairly logicly, and Zima still did not remove the vote. Even after questioning her why this was, she didn't justify a reason why.

When she plays as mafia, she posts once or twice a phase, then recedes back into hiding. This has stayed true, and is true of her for this game.

I am extremely suspicious of her. She hasn't responded at all.

Hopefully this also leads to some discussion.

I have to agree with this. I have mentioned Zima more than once, and she is around but does not show up to post. FtV is right in the fact that Zima tends to lurk this way when mafia. There are times where she has been more active to throw us off (Futurama), but since all those tactics have been used, it is up to WIFOM. For now:

UNVOTE: Froakie
VOTE: Zima

While Froakie is still one of my prime suspects, I would like to pressure @Zima; a bit more, we need answers, and thoughts. If two votes are not enough for her to show up, I don’t know what is (three votes maybe).

 

[Beck]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Again, likewise. I'll Vote: Zima for now, until she at the very least posts in the thread.

 

[Zima]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Hang on a moment.

I actually have real life reasons for my inactivity, and I'm sorry I can't keep up much anymore.

Zexy knows what those reasons are, so I don't even understand why he'd be one to vote me.

 

[sharkshocker]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

Well I really expected mido to turn out mafia so I don't have much to say anymore. @GastlyGibus; you're wrong though, mafia love watching innocents slaughter each other from the sidelines way more than doing it themselves and what I personally actually consider a good mafia tell is when someone constantly tries to stay neutral between conflicts as to not rub anyone the wrong way.

It's still possible that mafia played an active role in that lynch so we can't discount any suspicion from those involved.

On Froakie’s case, what I find suspicious is that she placed the last vote (unfortunately, all defenses on that regard would include a sheer amount of WIFOM) and that she pretty much did not give a single reason for voting Midorikawa, and now that we point it out, she still does not give stable reasoning, instead focusing on what should we do with the Day 1 voting patterns, as well as the fact that Mido’s vote did not hurt the town pretty much, although she could not know at the point she placed the vote.

Froakie seems a bit too uncaring about how the lynch on Day 1 went, it's a bit of a town tell to move past a mislynch and pick at other suspects (like how she did with Soulmaster) as people can play it off as "town not having info". Interesting comment from Soulmaster though so not to say it wasn't helpful but for now Vote Froakie.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Re: Animal Crossing: New Leaf Mafia: Day 2: Re-Tail Therapy 31/05/14

It's still possible that mafia played an active role in that lynch so we can't discount any suspicion from those involved.

No of course not, you didn't hear me say that. I just said that gastlygibus' statement of saying that people who didn't vote are less suspicious than those who did vote is completely wrong.