Back to Basics! Endgame(28/6/2015)

[HumanDawn]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

You say that you'd prefer a Doctor counterclaim, but in your PM to Zexy, you say that you'd be good with a Cop counterclaim, therefore contradicting your previous post in the thread.

Where did I say I'd be good with a Cop counterclaim? I only said that I wouldn't be too upset if the Cop outed and the game somehow managed to go on with scumhunting and so on instead of just following the Cop. I don't mention a Cop counterclaim anywhere in that post, just the Cop outing and that I wouldn't be too mad(as in, i'd still have issues with it but not as much) if the Town doesn't backtrack(which includes there being no counterclaim that could backtrack it, which I have my doubts will happen).

 

[TylerM]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Where did I say I'd be good with a Cop counterclaim? I only said that I wouldn't be too upset if the Cop outed and the game somehow managed to go on with scumhunting and so on instead of just following the Cop. I don't mention a Cop counterclaim anywhere in that post, just the Cop outing and that I wouldn't be too mad(as in, i'd still have issues with it but not as much) if the Town doesn't backtrack(which includes there being no counterclaim that could backtrack it, which I have my doubts will happen).

True. I'm not going to take back my vote yet, however. I have a feeling.

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

True. I'm not going to take back my vote yet, however. I have a feeling.

I understand having feelings, but they usually originate from something. If it's how aggressive I may sound, it's because I'm usually like that in Mafia games because I get heated up, especially when I end up writing posts that get some completely different interpretation read when plain English says otherwise. Am I Mafia for thinking there are better and more beneficial strategies that minimizes risks and increases the rewards? Because it's what I'm honestly thinking and I've explained many times how Zexy's plan isn't so easy and even mentioned past experiences.

 

[Zexy]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Spoiler

Mafia could target people the Cop checks? That isn't even including the risk. This idea is frustrating to me because it feels really easy breezy when it's not because you freely ignore all the problems that could come with it, and when somebody brings them up you just say "Oh sure hope that just doesn't happen then.".

Of course, that’s why the Cop shouldn’t reveal their town checks unless necessary (for example, if we are about to bring a mislynch on them). I didn’t say it’s breezy, but after playing a few Classic games on EpicMafia (classic = pretty much this role setup) I saw that everyone has their cop to out themselves. That’s not to say that a counterclaim can’t happen, I said that I thought it shouldn’t happen, but it probably will considering the nature of the aforementioned 1 Cop/1 Mafia trade. Also, as I’ve already said, CC on the cops doesn’t automatically mean “Lynch one of the cops”.

It doesn't even need to be done, but it would be a much better idea with no outed Cop. The Doctor is a role that can help prove people's alignments too by preventing a Nightkill, why do you want to give that up? It's a flawed idea, I never said it was flawless, but it's much better because it happens at a much later phase letting more breathing room. Plus you don't have an outed Cop, and it leaves room for strategies like maybe the person that outed that they were checked are actually the Cop, it could potentially confuse the Mafia and lead to no kills, and all this would be possible if the Cop doesn't out Day 1 but at a later phase. I guess the Doctor could just not protect the Cop claim, but that comes with its own bad risks.

I don’t really think the Doctor can prove alignments, because the Doc can protect a mafia and the mafia can decide not to kill if they know that a Doc protects them and by not killing, a member of theirs gets cleared. All strategies have their flaws. Mind games can happen with any strategy, let’s say the Cop is out. The Mafia won’t target the Cop, as it is almost sure that the Doc will be backing them. Key word being almost, as the Doc can play a mind game on the Mafia, knowing that they won’t attack the Cop, protecting someone else instead, blocking a kill in a completely unexpected way. It needs luck, but it still is a pretty crazy mind game and a similar version of it can be applied to any strategy.

No, I just said that I'd rather deal with a Doctor counterclaim if it ever were to happen because if we'd find scum in it, at least the Cop would still be alive. Not that I want it to happen...

But in order for this to happen, the real Doctor should claim. Why would a Doctor claim if there was not some kind of outing plan? It restricts them to protecting themselves. Even a mafioso won’t just claim Doctor out of nowhere for any reason. And if we really want a dummy that gets Doc protection, we can have a Villager do it. They may be mafia, but it will still be a public dummy and there is no counterclaim fear.

I think the better option would be to pick somebody to tell the information to, one that preferably interacted with the scum in a believable manner. We'd see how they play out and they could even pull off the strategy of having the Cop say the Cop trusted them with the information and the Mafia would be able to be manipulated from there. If a counterclaim occurs, we'd have posts in thread that helps us determine which is the legit one because it would happen in a later phase.

That’s a good idea. Just don’t mention that “Cop said the Cop trusted them” too much, the Mafia will eventually get aware of it.

No, I said I wouldn't be too upset if the Cop outs and the game manages to go on with discussion with potential lynch targets being brought up, which I have doubts will happen. Where have I fished a Cop claim? I only said that I had a hunch you may have been the Cop, which I'd tell you as a reason for you to know that I think you could really be Town, would you have rather I said that in-thread?? How would I know that you'd really out? It was a great strategy that came to mind that could be the case I haven't said different things at all, and anyone who reads my posts and thinks about what I've said should know that.

I’m not sure if I have doubts about it, if it doesn’t happen it will most probably be because of the whole argument holding them back. Still, there is no reason to contact anyone privately in this game, where claims and mass claims don’t exist, for an alliance, this early in the game, and without being a power role or having a direct interaction with them. You know that I’d really out because I proposed it, and if everyone agreed, the cop would have to show up… if it were me, I couldn’t really propose something and then flat out do the opposite.

I'm still against it, I even say that not everything is Black and White and that there are more layers to it and how I think my action is better, and I think I've explained many times how it's an incredibly risky move that isn't as easy breezy as you keep on trying to make it, like as if Mafia is that easy. I also never suggested a doc outing, I just said that I'd prefer that, if we ever had to deal with counterclaims of any kind, it would be Doctor counterclaims. Do you really think I'd just say two conflicting things as Mafia so easily? "Hey Zexy, I don't think your idea is good, wait, now I'm going to tell you privately that your idea isn't really bad!".

Any move is risky, anything relies on luck, but this game at least lets us employ some different strategies than the regular scumhunting, especially early on, where it’s hard to scumhunt since everything is based on jokes and gut feelings. This is like, the easiest Mafia setup in existence, if there is one place where this can work, this is said place. I also believe that “I wouldn’t say this if I were Mafia” is not a valid argument to read someone as town, because mafia has to pretend they are town anyway and can use the exact same argument, so it doesn’t really give any tells to either faction.

You and Tyler are my two Top Town reads so far. What you say and how you react is how I expect you to react as Town, right up with suspecting that I fished for a claim and Tyler seems really invested and interested and seems to want to help the Town. Their comment about still trying to get The_Pikachu involved even if it might be her usual playstyle just screamed pro Town to me, especially compated to jack's attitude that it's just her and that it's no big deal. The_Pikachu I'm leaning a bit Town on, mostly because if she's Mafia I expect her more to jump on the opportunity to vote me to try get me mislynched, and even if I disagree with her reasoning on you, I think it makes sense for her Town self to use it.

It may be because we have posted a lot. Tyler seems invested, I don’t know if it is his first game, but yeah, a mafioso starting like this right off shows a really good player. The only unsettling thing with @TylerM; (I would like you to give thoughts on this) is that he was a bit too quick to follow suit with his vote, and I don’t know if this has a bandwagon-y nature or not. As for The_Pikachu, I would like to see her say on these recent pretty big posts we exchanged and whether or not she will stick on her vote.

For now:
UNVOTE: HumanDawn
I don’t think I can decide on a new vote yet, waiting on Pikachu Tyler and Gafigglethorp (I know you are around, take some time to post here, please) before voting again. As for you, Human, I’m leaning more Town than before, but still not sure. Especially because all the other times you told me I were very Town you were mafia, and you used this to your advantage. Honor Among Thieves, Gundam SEED, Paper Mario.

 

[Figgles]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Give me some time to read Zexy. Neither of you were stingy with their words. XP

Anyways, I'm not too keen on Zexy's strategy, the counterclaim carries a very large risk, as mentioned before.

I'll edit this with more, stay put.

EDIT: I'm more for HumanDawn's idea, although it's quite time/phase consuming. The worst case scenario here is a dummy counterclaim, but the doc can still out themselves, protect, and sort it out with the cop without them revealing. Sure, this carries huge risks for the Doc, but I dunno how else we'd handle that sort of thing without getting a scenario like Zexy's plan a couple of phases later. Any other proposals?

Also, what if cop checks a mafioso? That kinda throws a wrench in the plan.

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Of course, that’s why the Cop shouldn’t reveal their town checks unless necessary (for example, if we are about to bring a mislynch on them). I didn’t say it’s breezy, but after playing a few Classic games on EpicMafia (classic = pretty much this role setup) I saw that everyone has their cop to out themselves. That’s not to say that a counterclaim can’t happen, I said that I thought it shouldn’t happen, but it probably will considering the nature of the aforementioned 1 Cop/1 Mafia trade. Also, as I’ve already said, CC on the cops doesn’t automatically mean “Lynch one of the cops”.

Yeah, which is also a good idea to build a potentially big alliance over. The Mafia would have an act to follow if they haven't done such a thing if they claim Cop to counterclaim. I admittedly haven't played EpicMafia in a long while, but I've seen games and frequent discussion in regards to cop counterclaims, so that's where probably most of my paranoia stems from. I know, but I'd rather not there being a chance of the Mafia Nightkilling the Cop when the Cop would have then been better off as not being outed.

I don’t really think the Doctor can prove alignments, because the Doc can protect a mafia and the mafia can decide not to kill if they know that a Doc protects them and by not killing, a member of theirs gets cleared. All strategies have their flaws. Mind games can happen with any strategy, let’s say the Cop is out. The Mafia won’t target the Cop, as it is almost sure that the Doc will be backing them. Key word being almost, as the Doc can play a mind game on the Mafia, knowing that they won’t attack the Cop, protecting someone else instead, blocking a kill in a completely unexpected way. It needs luck, but it still is a pretty crazy mind game and a similar version of it can be applied to any strategy.

We could decide from flavour text if it's helpful, that's how I always tried figuring out how the night went, but I really doubt the Mafia would not kill a Town member to potentially clear themselves. You should encourage it though, maybe that might make the Mafia actually do it only for it to fail and we'd be with one more Town member. I think it does clear them, at least most likely. Maybe just wait a bit before deciding.

But in order for this to happen, the real Doctor should claim. Why would a Doctor claim if there was not some kind of outing plan? It restricts them to protecting themselves. Even a mafioso won’t just claim Doctor out of nowhere for any reason. And if we really want a dummy that gets Doc protection, we can have a Villager do it. They may be mafia, but it will still be a public dummy and there is no counterclaim fear.

Wait, what claim did I make for you to bring this up?

I’m not sure if I have doubts about it, if it doesn’t happen it will most probably be because of the whole argument holding them back. Still, there is no reason to contact anyone privately in this game, where claims and mass claims don’t exist, for an alliance, this early in the game, and without being a power role or having a direct interaction with them. You know that I’d really out because I proposed it, and if everyone agreed, the cop would have to show up… if it were me, I couldn’t really propose something and then flat out do the opposite.

I wasn't up for an alliance, I simply told you that I thought there was some possibility you could be a Cop. No, it also crossed my mind you could have been the Cop testing the waters to see if others think it's a good idea too or something.

Any move is risky, anything relies on luck, but this game at least lets us employ some different strategies than the regular scumhunting, especially early on, where it’s hard to scumhunt since everything is based on jokes and gut feelings. This is like, the easiest Mafia setup in existence, if there is one place where this can work, this is said place. I also believe that “I wouldn’t say this if I were Mafia” is not a valid argument to read someone as town, because mafia has to pretend they are town anyway and can use the exact same argument, so it doesn’t really give any tells to either faction.

I know, I brought it up because what I said wasn't really inconsistent so I don't see how I as Mafia would be saying inconsistent things by telling you one thing privately and then keep on contradicting it continuously in thread with no reason given intentionally.

It may be because we have posted a lot. Tyler seems invested, I don’t know if it is his first game, but yeah, a mafioso starting like this right off shows a really good player. The only unsettling thing with @TylerM; (I would like you to give thoughts on this) is that he was a bit too quick to follow suit with his vote, and I don’t know if this has a bandwagon-y nature or not. As for The_Pikachu, I would like to see her say on these recent pretty big posts we exchanged and whether or not she will stick on her vote.

Yeah it's their first game too. That's possible, and I can buy that they made a genuine mistake.

For now:
UNVOTE: HumanDawn
I don’t think I can decide on a new vote yet, waiting on Pikachu Tyler and Gafigglethorp (I know you are around, take some time to post here please) before voting again. As for you, Human, I’m leaning more Town than before, but still not sure. Especially because all the other times you told me I were very Town you were mafia, and you used this to your advantage. Honor Among Thieves, Gundam SEED, Paper Mario.

In HAT, GS and PM I think you got suspicious of me over time though because I'd be active, alive, and not getting scum lynches, although I could be wrong since it's been so long.

Also, what if cop checks a mafioso? That kinda throws a wrench in the plan.

If we mislynch this phase and the Mafia Nightkills Town tomorrow and the Cop got their check in, they'd have a 3/11 chance of claiming to scum(4 to 3 because of the checked scum, 15 to 11 because of two dead Town, being the Cop and you wouldn't claim to Mafia.). With some thinking you could figure who the Town is, especially from interactions in thread and behaviour. I doubt a counterclaim would happen though if it's legit, and if the checked scum claims they're the Cop then it would be really hard to believe that the Mafia ended up luckily fakeclaiming a check on the Cop, especially in this setup with these roles. Sure, a different Mafia member could support them, but that's sacrificing two Mafia for potentially lynching the Cop, which I don't think is a fair trade.

 

[TylerM]

Tyler's observations!!!!!!! (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

Big post turn up

Spoiler

Oh dear lord for the love of god please don't out publicly in thread. Doctor dies, Cop's already sure to be Nightkilled. There is no need for them to out right now and I expect better results with no outed Cop. The Doctor could actually manage to protect somebody who might actually be targeted by the Mafia instead of somebody who surely won't. Sure, the Mafia could attack someone else and the Doctor could protect someone else, but that comes with the risk of the Mafia actually targeting the Cop. Plus with an outed Cop, I'm afraid the game will just become a "follow the Cop" type of game where people are discouraged from scumhunting, with the Mafia even using it as an excuse to post less. It could work in later phases, like Day 3, where the Cop could have some checks in if their targets don't die and they don't die either though. We should focus more on trying to get the game moving through more normal means. Like this!

There is no reason, the first few votes of a game are generally joke votes, either based on a injoke or just at random. It's a fun tradition and serves to get things moving.

VOTE: Rabbit

If you know it serves to get things moving, then why aren't you following suit? What's preventing you from getting the game to move, by contributing with a vote?

Oh and there's also the fact that in games with setups like this, the Mafia usually counterclaims the Cop and it causes all sorts of drama and trouble. In the site Phoenicks competed in, in one of their games the Cop claimed, but then the Mafia ended up counteclaiming them and got them lynched. It's a lot more common in sites like EpicMafia, and I'm sure some players here who have experience with that know that what I'm saying is true and can happen.

This post is giving me a scum vibe. HumanDawn automatically voted Rabbit, because Rabbit did not want to participate in a joke that "gets things going," when joke voting actually doesn't get the game started, it is a useless practice, and has done nothing to help this game start. Also, please note bolded parts, as they are necessary for later.

Also people are intent on picking which Cop claim to lynch because the Mafia Cop usually just claims they got a Mafia check on somebody and people pick to get that person lynched, so the Mafia ends up with a mislynch with them having another night to kill somebody in, and we can't afford to lose Town members.



It does, but I see more potential for better results with no outed Cop. An outed Cop right now is just an excuse for people to feel discouraged to scumhunt, for the Cop and it basically becomes a boring wait game where people decide to play no risks and only decide to up their ante when the Doctor dies, which I think would be too late. We're more likely to get reads and potentially better Cop checks with no outed Cop. Private conversations are possible, there's no Godfather so all they have to do is message the cleared Town and build a secret alliance from there. If the Cop checks somebody Night 1 and they're Town, and then they check Mafia Night 2, the checked Town N1 can out the Cop's scum check, and get the Doctor to the Cop without actually getting the Cop outed at all.

Finally, I do not think Rabbit is scummy for not joke voting, come on! Not joke voting on Day 1 is almost as common as joke voting, so accusing someone of not "not using" their votes in a serious manner (ie of not joke voting) isn't what I would call serious scumhunting either.

It's scummy to me because he said what others were doing was to help the game, and I see no reason for him to not logically vote if he had the Town's best interests. It caught my eye and I'm acting on it, as simple as that.

Note bolded parts.

I see no reason for him to not logically vote...

Joke voting isn't logically voting. In this post, HumanDawn wants him to logically vote, while in this post:

If you know it serves to get things moving, then why aren't you following suit? What's preventing you from getting the game to move, by contributing with a [joke] vote?

he wants Rabbit to contribute with a joke vote, contradicting himself.

What I think Zexy was thinking was that, in the scenario he outlined, the only thing that matters is protecting the Cop. As, there's nor Godfather, the Cop can then either find town to add to an alliance or scum to lynch. Either way, the mafia will start to be identified before long. Yes, it could lead to a lazy town, but what does that matter if it finds the mafia? I agree that it could easily backfire, however, just explaining the reasoning as I understand it.

A lazy Town will make the game too luck based, the Mafia would more likely find who the Doctor is before the Cop is too successful because the Town has more numbers.

*sigh* I was wondering if someone would say that. I was explaining why people make joke votes, not saying they were necessary. Are you really willing to go after me because I didn't have a joke to make? You know that I'm generally quiet. People had already posted, I'm not going to squeeze out a post for the sake of posting.

Yeah, I know that you're generally quiet, which is the more reason to try to find something to vote you for to try get you to post and say something. I'm more willing to go after you because of the quietness to get a better read on you than let you slip as scum.

I thought HumanDawn voted for Rabbit because he didn't joke vote? Is HumanDawn contradicting himself? Again? You also said that I was one of your top town readings because of my comment trying to get Pikachu involved, while you took an aggressive approach and jumped headfirst, automatically voting Rabbit, not even waiting for him to defend himself.

Inconsistencies generally mean a person is lying, and Zexy's evidence show inconsistencies in HumanDawn's ideas, without reason as to why he changed his stance. Plus, there is the fact that HumanDawn did lie in the thread, and unless HumanDawn puts up a good defense, Vote: HumanDawn.

Where was I inconsistent? Where did I change my stance without reason, or change it at all? Where and when did I lie?

-your stance on outing the cop(went from oh LORD no to it wouldn't be that bad)
-your reasoning on voting for Rabbit(not joke voting to trying to get him to post)
-what you wanted Rabbit to do after you voted for him(joke vote to logically vote to post)

I understand having feelings, but they usually originate from something. If it's how aggressive I may sound, it's because I'm usually like that in Mafia games because I get heated up, especially when I end up writing posts that get some completely different interpretation read when plain English says otherwise. Am I Mafia for thinking there are better and more beneficial strategies that minimizes risks and increases the rewards? Because it's what I'm honestly thinking and I've explained many times how Zexy's plan isn't so easy and even mentioned past experiences.

It's not your aggressiveness. It's the fact that you have been inconsistent.

tl;dr:
HumanDawn is inconsistent due to him changing his stance on important matters(outing the cop, reasoning for votes, and expected reactions). Note bolded parts.
(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧.

 

[Zexy]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Sure, this carries huge risks for the Doc, but I dunno how else we'd handle that sort of thing without getting a scenario like Zexy's plan a couple of phases later. Any other proposals?

Also, what if cop checks a mafioso? That kinda throws a wrench in the plan.

Even if my original scenario is risky early on, it might not be this bad some phases later.

The cop should either out themselves (not if the Doc has already done this for any reason!) or contact a confirmed/Doc/dummy and have them announce it publicly. In any case, we can't afford not lynching a mafioso when they are right there for us to annihilate.

EDIT: Ninja'd again. Wait a min please...
And here it is!

Spoiler

Yeah, which is also a good idea to build a potentially big alliance over. The Mafia would have an act to follow if they haven't done such a thing if they claim Cop to counterclaim. I admittedly haven't played EpicMafia in a long while, but I've seen games and frequent discussion in regards to cop counterclaims, so that's where probably most of my paranoia stems from. I know, but I'd rather not there being a chance of the Mafia Nightkilling the Cop when the Cop would have then been better off as not being outed.

Point is, in a game where a massclaim is pretty much out of the question (what good will it do if we get 13 Villager claims?), there is not as much of a reason for an alliance as in other games. However, the cop and everyone they’ve checked inno, and maybe the doc (someone can ask for private doc counterclaims if need be, to avoid paranoia about that) can form a QT. It will still focus more on scumhunting and less on which ability should each person use on each specific night. I just checked it today to be honest, it’s not called statistics if all you do is play like 5 games in an hour. After all EpicMafia games tend to be smaller.

We could decide from flavour text if it's helpful, that's how I always tried figuring out how the night went, but I really doubt the Mafia would not kill a Town member to potentially clear themselves. You should encourage it though, maybe that might make the Mafia actually do it only for it to fail and we'd be with one more Town member. I think it does clear them, at least most likely. Maybe just wait a bit before deciding.

Flavour text shouldn’t really hint to this a lot, but I get your point. I know, it’s a paranoid scenario, but if we have them cornered, they might have no other option, so you never know. If the Doc knows what they’re doing, mind games can work well.

Wait, what claim did I make for you to bring this up?

You didn’t make any claim. I just said that in order for your Doc counterclaim scenario to happen, the Doc should claim… which may not be the best idea, especially since a Villager can do the same job with less problems (bonus points if they’re cop-confirmed).

In HAT, GS and PM I think you got suspicious of me over time though because I'd be active, alive, and not getting scum lynches, although I could be wrong since it's been so long.

I know, but that was not the point. In all those games in which you were scum, you tried to make an alliance with me in one way or another while keeping saying how Town you thought I was. It wasn’t the reason I suspect you, it’s the reason I have a small bit of suspicion for you in this game, from a retrospective view.

HumanDawn automatically voted Rabbit, because Rabbit did not want to participate in a joke that "gets things going," when joke voting actually doesn't get the game started, it is a useless practice, and has done nothing to help this game start.

Is it me, or did he never unvote Rabbit despite all this?

I thought HumanDawn voted for Rabbit because he didn't joke vote? Is HumanDawn contradicting himself? Again? You also said that I was one of your top town readings because of my comment trying to get Pikachu involved, while you took an aggressive approach and jumped headfirst, automatically voting Rabbit, not even waiting for him to defend himself.

The point of the vote was not the joke voting itself, but rather the incentive for people to post more. I don’t really agree with this tactic, I’ve employed it in a past game (H.A.T.) with awful results and many other people also did it. It tends to lead to unnecessary Day 1 mislynches. So, he didn’t vote Rabbit in order to listen to his defense, which means he didn’t jump, he just tried to make things moving by making the votes a little more serious than before, but it still is nothing concrete. As for the contradictions, I know that in Day 1 we get too paranoid with them, and even townspeople contradict themselves, especially those that want to talk a lot, because they want to contribute a lot. Now I would mention another game where this happened to me and almost got me mislynched (Gundam SEED), but no point in elaborating on a game from a year ago in which you never participated, right?

-your stance on outing the cop(went from oh LORD no to it wouldn't be that bad)
-your reasoning on voting for Rabbit(not joke voting to trying to get him to post)
-what you wanted Rabbit to do after you voted for him(joke vote to logically vote to post)

I have to agree that the original reaction was just extremely exaggerated. Still, I have to check whether he unvoted for Rabbit or not, because at this point, I think there is no point on keeping said vote around. I hope we also get a votecount in a few hours, that will help a bit.

 

[TylerM]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

The only unsettling thing with @TylerM; (I would like you to give thoughts on this) is that he was a bit too quick to follow suit with his vote, and I don’t know if this has a bandwagon-y nature or not.

It wasn't bandwagon- your evidence was logical, and I was convinced.

 

[Froakie]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Hey, sorry for not posting as of yet - I will need to make it a new habit to check bulba everday now (it's gone from me!)
I'm also at work right now with my manager behind me so I can't spend too long reading all these wall posts

I think for now - rather than strategizing what cop/doctor should be doing in thread - which is in full view of the mafia who will be able to use the tactics to their advantage and work out strategies themselves, the best thing to do is let Cop/Doc decide what to do first night themselves. Whether that be out in thread, PM their innocent cop check - etc.

It'll be easier for the mafia to make mistakes with perhaps contradicting methods - and perhaps easier to catch someone out rather than having two streams of counter claims working simultaneously together, opposite, and the same. If that makes sense. I agree with HumanDawn about let's not turn this into a follow-the-cop type situation, as it removes the actual town scumhunting, and overall makes the game pretty boring. There may even be a chance we have a mafia where nobody wants to counter claim even behind the scenes yet on the other hand - we could have town members acting as matyr for the doc and cop by claiming roles they aren't. Either case, we don't know players in what role and what they'll do/how they'll play currently, so planning ahead could end up being even harder for the town as if someone doesn't follow it exactly, it could very easily turn into a mislynch.

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Tyler's observations!!!!!!! (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

This post is giving me a scum vibe. HumanDawn automatically voted Rabbit, because Rabbit did not want to participate in a joke that "gets things going," when joke voting actually doesn't get the game started, it is a useless practice, and has done nothing to help this game start. Also, please note bolded parts, as they are necessary for later.

I don't think it's a useless practice and anyone who has played a game with me knows how much I want people to vote to move the game along. It hasn't helped this game to start because Zexy brought up his theory and I made things start with my big disagreement.

Joke voting isn't logically voting. In this post, HumanDawn wants him to logically vote, while in this post:

If you know it serves to get things moving, then why aren't you following suit? What's preventing you from getting the game to move, by contributing with a [joke] vote?

he wants Rabbit to contribute with a joke vote, contradicting himself.

Rabbit looked like he acknowledged that people were joke voting to move the game along, yet didn't joke vote himself to move it along, and I said why wouldn't he when it would make logical sense to logically joke vote to move the game along.

I thought HumanDawn voted for Rabbit because he didn't joke vote? Is HumanDawn contradicting himself? Again? You also said that I was one of your top town readings because of my comment trying to get Pikachu involved, while you took an aggressive approach and jumped headfirst, automatically voting Rabbit, not even waiting for him to defend himself.

I could vote a person for multiple reasons ...? That's because I'm a much more aggressive player that pressures people with votes(oh dear lord please don't let this become another joke vote vs pressure vote debate) and the game just started, I don't know how you play and I thought you didn't want to vote.

-your stance on outing the cop(went from oh LORD no to it wouldn't be that bad)
-your reasoning on voting for Rabbit(not joke voting to trying to get him to post)
-what you wanted Rabbit to do after you voted for him(joke vote to logically vote to post)

Oh come on, these are all untrue and are blatant misinterpretations of what I've said.

I don't think anything I've said is inconsistent and I'm amazed at how hard it is to apparently understand my posts.

EDIT: I see no reason to unvote Rabbit right now. Sure he posted once or twice after, but he didn't vote anyone, I replied to him, and he hasn't yet given me a response back to what I've said and I'm still interested in him enough to keep my vote.

 

[Zexy]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Hey, sorry for not posting as of yet - I will need to make it a new habit to check bulba everday now (it's gone from me!)

I know that feel very well

I think for now - rather than strategizing what cop/doctor should be doing in thread - which is in full view of the mafia who will be able to use the tactics to their advantage and work out strategies themselves, the best thing to do is let Cop/Doc decide what to do first night themselves. Whether that be out in thread, PM their innocent cop check - etc.

The good thing with this game is that the mafia has no actions other than their nightkill, so by strategizing over the town’s actions, the mafia doesn’t have too much to reply to this. The main reason we are doing this after all is to gather reads (we don’t have anything better yet), of course we can’t force the 2 power roles to do what we want them to.

Spoiler

I don't think it's a useless practice and anyone who has played a game with me knows how much I want people to vote to move the game along. It hasn't helped this game to start because Zexy brought up his theory and I made things start with my big disagreement.

It isn't, but I think that the two theories that counter each other is a better way to begin the game than "I serious-vote you because you joke-voted someone to get them to talk while they serious-voted someone else who joke-voted" or "You look scummy for talking too much, you look scummy for lurking, you look scummy for finding other people scummy". I really don't like this thing called Day 1.

Rabbit looked like he acknowledged that people were joke voting to move the game along, yet didn't joke vote himself to move it along, and I said why wouldn't he when it would make logical sense to logically joke vote to move the game along.

Even then, not joke voting is just another way to move the game along, just because you (or whoever would notice it first, for that matter) kept promoting further discussion.

I could vote a person for multiple reasons ...? That's because I'm a much more aggressive player that pressures people with votes(oh dear lord please don't let this become another joke vote vs pressure vote debate) and the game just started, I don't know how you play and I thought you didn't want to vote.

I think there is no point for this debate to happen again, we know Day 1's suck, and we already have many other things to discuss. From what I get, Tyler is a really good player that is just new to this site. Noticing all those contradictions takes practice.

Oh come on, these are all untrue and are blatant misinterpretations of what I've said.

Welcome to mafia! There is no way everyone can interpret the same thing out of every single word spoken xD

I don't think anything I've said is inconsistent and I'm amazed at how hard it is to apparently understand my posts.

There are small inconsistencies, but I'm letting them slide for now because I understand that's how you play, by talking a lot (which is good), accidentally making things sound contradicting.

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

It isn't, but I think that the two theories that counter each other is a better way to begin the game than "I serious-vote you because you joke-voted someone to get them to talk while they serious-voted someone else who joke-voted" or "You look scummy for talking too much, you look scummy for lurking, you look scummy for finding other people scummy". I really don't like this thing called Day 1.

Disagreements usually start in Day 1 because people don't like the votes on them, and thus express it, allowing to gain a better read from them from the continuous expressions which increases the amount of reading to do which starts the game. I don't think I've ever seen somebody call someone scummy for talking too much, for being "too proTown" I've seen but not for that.

Even then, not joke voting is just another way to move the game along, just because you (or whoever would notice it first, for that matter) kept promoting further discussion.

That's true, but the issue with that is that if the party that didn't joke vote then don't react or express themselves we lose opportunities to gain reads. Rabbit was being voted on in a recent game in which he was Town and reacted in a Town way that made me think he was Town, and I was right. In a more recent one, he reacted in a not Town way and he ended up being scum, and I ended being right on that too. Maybe this was all Rabbit's master plan too, but I have no way of really knowing that.

I think there is no point for this debate to happen again, we know Day 1's suck, and we already have many other things to discuss. From what I get, Tyler is a really good player that is just new to this site. Noticing all those contradictions takes practice.

They're not contradictions, though .

Welcome to mafia! There is no way everyone can interpret the same thing out of every single word spoken xD

Yeah, I know, but this is one of the more off interpretations I have ever seen of my posts.

There are small inconsistencies, but I'm letting them slide for now because I understand that's how you play, by talking a lot (which is good), accidentally making things sound contradicting.[/spoiler]

I'm not seeing them, maybe some things could just be explained better and it's just because it's me.

 

[Zexy]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Disagreements usually start in Day 1 because people don't like the votes on them, and thus express it, allowing to gain a better read from them from the continuous expressions which increases the amount of reading to do which starts the game. I don't think I've ever seen somebody call someone scummy for talking too much, for being "too proTown" I've seen but not for that.

Indeed, which is one of the reasons that Day 1 has the most posting in most games. I remember someone calling me scummy in a past game for that, but I don’t remember any further details.

That's true, but the issue with that is that if the party that didn't joke vote then don't react or express themselves we lose opportunities to gain reads.

But even not talking can be considered a read, inherently not so good. On the matter of Rabbit, remember Breaking Bad? The first “is town” scenario played and we got a really bad mislynch which could have cost town the game were there not an indep (unlucky enough to get nightkilled) in the bunch.

 

[jackatlasred]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Hmm... to be honest with you all I have been against the cop outing ever since day 1, I voted upon what I saw, and expected a few people to side with HD since her plan seemed to not hurt us at first. Having said that I have been in a game where I was the doc and got killed right away day 2, with the mafia not playing a big role in my death.

OK so we have a fake doctor claim, we wait until we know who the real doctor is, or do we lynch someone right off the bat? Of course at first it wont hurt us, having other people be killed, but our PR are just safe. Then we realize we have a problem, who is the real doctor?

You guys say the doctor is easier to identify, but why would the doctor be easier to identify? He can't tell us who he protected, we see it right away. He can't be trapped, since there is no way to be proved wrong as a doctor. The doctor would have to defend himself, and not anyone else. To be honest I don't agree with the three plans that were proposed here.

My proposal is this, which many people have already said. We wait till a mafia hit from the cop, then he outs, Of course there will be counter claims, but I have a way to identify mafia real easily so I can tell who's the real one. we get the person who he said lynched, If it was a mislynch then that cop dies the next day. I say this strategy gets stronger the more days pass, since we have people that can say they back someone up, leaving the mafia trying to some up with the same number, having said a lie we know some mafia members are in that group, (Not all since mafia could be smart).

I proposed a second option in the case that I die between there and now. For this plan to work you guys have to believe I'm town, as such I claim to be town right now, even if it means being killed day 1 (which would not be smart mafia) others that might die Tyler, HD, and zexy.

 

[Zexy]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Spoiler

I voted upon what I saw, and expected a few people to side with HD since her plan seemed to not hurt us at first.

Minor note but HD is male

OK so we have a fake doctor claim, we wait until we know who the real doctor is, or do we lynch someone right off the bat? Of course at first it wont hurt us, having other people be killed, but our PR are just safe. Then we realize we have a problem, who is the real doctor?

Just lynching on 50-50 is risky. We can have the cop check the one. By simple deduction they can easily get who is the real one, contact them, then have the real doctor reveal that the other is an impostor. The problem is if a second mafioso counterclaims the cop, proving the other doctor correct. But at that point there might just be no cop, or the mafia will not know who the cop is, accidentally night kill them, and have both mafiosi lynched a.s.a.p.

You guys say the doctor is easier to identify, but why would the doctor be easier to identify? He can't tell us who he protected, we see it right away. He can't be trapped, since there is no way to be proved wrong as a doctor. The doctor would have to defend himself, and not anyone else. To be honest I don't agree with the three plans that were proposed here.

It's not easier, it's just that we can have the cop identify them and resolve the counterclaim correctly without losing our cop. But this is if there is no second counterclaim on the cop. Also, the doctor doesn't necessarily have to defend themselves, they can play mind games with the mafia, plus the mafia won't EVER waste their nightkill on a person that can as easily be lynched, let alone uncover a mafioso with their death. They can kill other people and force the dillema on us forever.

My proposal is this, which many people have already said. We wait till a mafia hit from the cop, then he outs,

I've got like, two, meaningful posts from you... and you're just recycling stuff over and over. I'm getting the scummy vibes Human also got from you. What do you say over The_Pikachu voting me, for example?

Of course there will be counter claims, but I have a way to identify mafia real easily so I can tell who's the real one. we get the person who he said lynched, If it was a mislynch then that cop dies the next day.[

The whole point of the discussion is that we don't want EITHER of our power roles lynched in ANY case. EVER. 1 Cop/1 Mafia or 1 Doc/1 Mafia is a bad trade for this game.

I proposed a second option in the case that I die between there and now. For this plan to work you guys have to believe I'm town, as such I claim to be town right now, even if it means being killed day 1 (which would not be smart mafia) others that might die Tyler, HD, and zexy.

Okay... this is weird. Why should we just believe you are town? Why shouldn't we just believe that any random user is town and have both power roles claim to them? You just claimed Town? Like, seriously?! Everyone claims town by default in this game, which person in their right mind would claim mafia? Do you really believe that just because you announced you are town you are a more likely target for Night 1?! Oh no oh no. To be honest, I am getting a REALLY HARD scum vibe from you at the moment. I get it that this is not your first mafia game, right? Anyways, for now:

VOTE: jackatlasred

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

But even not talking can be considered a read, inherently not so good. On the matter of Rabbit, remember Breaking Bad? The first “is town” scenario played and we got a really bad mislynch which could have cost town the game were there not an indep (unlucky enough to get nightkilled) in the bunch.

No, I don't really remember that, I mostly remember the Cop outing Day 1 for no reason. There's still plenty of time left anyway, this phase is 48 hours right?

I'm thinking our latest discussions haven't really been going anywhere. @CrackFox; Hey what's up? @Seppe; You liked a post of mine but I don't recall you posting, got anything to say?

 

[TylerM]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Spoiler

@Rabbit
@Flopjack
@Gafigglethorp
@Seppe
@Denial
@CrackFox

What are y'all's thoughts on these matters?

 

[HumanDawn]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Wait where did I say I got scummy vibes from jackatlasred? I remember the least of what I've said about him and it was over midnight. I only remember giving a read on The_Pikachu, Zexy and Tyler.

I proposed a second option in the case that I die between there and now. For this plan to work you guys have to believe I'm town, as such I claim to be town right now, even if it means being killed day 1 (which would not be smart mafia) others that might die Tyler, HD, and zexy.

Okay... this is weird. Why should we just believe you are town? Why shouldn't we just believe that any random user is town and have both power roles claim to them? You just claimed Town? Like, seriously?! Everyone claims town by default in this game, which person in their right mind would claim mafia? Do you really believe that just because you announced you are town you are a more likely target for Night 1?! Oh no oh no. To be honest, I am getting a REALLY HARD scum vibe from you at the moment. I get it that this is not your first mafia game, right? Anyways, for now:

VOTE: jackatlasred

I'm very careful when it comes to jackatlasred, since I find him very hard to understand and so I get confused and don't know if it's him just not being knowledgeable, making a genuine mistake or just really being scummy. I'd like to know what he thinks about me now though, he still has his vote on me so I'd like to know why he hasn't mentioned it despite all the posts I've made(not saying he should think I'm Town or whatever, just that I want to see if his read changed in any way.).

 

[jackatlasred]

Re: Back to Basics! Day 1(16/6/2015)

Vote for me if you'd like @Zexy; but this won't get us anywhere, just saying.

Well @HumanDawn; a lynch here would be beneficial to us, whether you're mafia or not. Also I kind of don't fell threatened by you so much now, just waiting to see if anyone just throws themselves on the let's lynch Jack bandwagon, he made a mistake.

Also can you fix your quote it looks like you're voting for me