How bad was the Johto team really?

[MistyBrockAsh]

Through out the treads I have seen alot of people dissing ash's Johto team.

This team consists of:
main: Cyndaquil, Bayleef, totodile, Noctowl, Pikachu
Reserves: Phanphy, Heracross

I disagree that this team is as bad as people are saying they are. In the amnie evolution doesnt necesarily translate to streinght. Even though this team was sort of anti evolution they still had mighty acomplishments.

Cyndaquil: Beat the second gyms syther, helped beat the third gyms miltank, beat the fourth gyms gahstly, beat the sixth gyms steelix, beat the seventh gyms dewgong, He had 5 gym wins and won at least one battle in every gym he was in.

Bayleef: Single handed beaten both of the 5th gyms fighting pokemon, and defeated a houndoor in the johto league dispite the type dissadvantages

totodile: major contributor in the wirl cup and he was able to beat a powerfull sneasle in the johto league

Noctowl: was able to defeat all of Morries pokemon besides ghastly, Able to use powerfull Pyhic attacks, was used more than pidgeot

the reserves were powerfull

also you might think they are not as good because the writers and animators made the gym battles more intense in advance generations and other later episodes. And the kanto people was able to battle in that new way the writers made.

So the point in this tread is why do you think the johto team sucked?
what proof?
also discuss the change in battle intensity changes in different sagas?
Even though they werent evolved doesnt mean they werent good, not saying they are power houses like charizard sceptile donphan snorlax bulbisar and squirtle

 

[Gligarman]

I personally don't think that the Johto team sucked, I just don't think his Johto team lived up to his Kanto team. I don't think there was any reason for any of his starters not to evolve.

 

[Cybersai]

Its not like they didn't win their fair share of battles, its just that all his other teams were handled a hell of a lot better.

 

[emanuellburnell]

Just because his other teams were handled better does not mean his johto team were handled poorly and that they were not handled well they are just as good as his other teams,and because they did not evovle do not mean they are not strong are not good at battling.

 

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

They don't suck. At all. Cyndaquil won in at least four different gyms, Totodile beat Harrison's (presumably) well-trained Sneasel, and Bayleef apparently had enough experience to undergo evolution.

They don't suck, it's just, logically, they aren't as strong as other teams because they weren't used as much and didn't seem to grow quite as much.

 

[Rhyperior]

They are RELATIVELY weak when compared to the other teams, not that they really are weak!

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I wouldn't say they were bad, just...underdeveloped. The three starters all had distinctive personalities, but they never got a chance to really reach their full potential.

If the writers had handled things better, they could have been right up there with his other teams. But it's not like Kanto's team was handled that much better. Pikachu and the three starters were used well, but Pidjon never did anything, and after he let Butterfree go, Satoshi never really had a consistent sixth Pokemon, resulting in Betbeton and Kingler really getting no development, and Okorizaru leaving way too quickly.

The Houen and Shinou teams have been handled much better, imho.

 

[oddball walking]

It wasn't a bad team just (very) badly written, when the is filler after filler and they don't do anything its pointless them being around. Also it as around that the interest dropped and the fad faded and his Johto team are mostly forgotten about. Plus his Kanto team was a hard act to follow, they should have tried something else rather than fail at replacing them like in AG where he only caught Treeko.

I hope they get some more show time in the league or some arc or something.

Edit: about time 2 hours to post that, bloody connection.

 

[Duckgon Z]

I still say that the Johto team was sabotaged by fear of nostalgia backlash. I think that it would have been easy to have Cyndaquil, Noctowl, Totodile, Bayleef, Phanpy, and Heracross plow through Johto like the Hoenn team did. But there seemed to be some invisible rule that, no one surpasses Kanto in power, and this still seems to apply today, so since Kanto was the only measuring stick, Johto had to fall short. Of course this was also because it was the writers first time writing for a 4 year series, so of course there were mistakes all around.

 

[Cybersai]

Yeah, I really do think its because of Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charizard's popularity. That's why the Johto team wasn't developed.

Hence why Bulbasaur lasted on Ash's team for more than half of Johto, Charizard made its epic return in Movie 3 to battle Entei, and why everything from the 8th Gym through the league was dominated by Bulbasaur, Squirtle, Charizard and Snorlax.

They replaced the "originals" and like most people, everyone likes the original characters more than whatever comes after. They got the same reaction from the fanbase for replacing the Kanto starters as Tracey did for replacing Brock. Hence why both actions were "reversed" as the show went on and the writers went back to the original characters. They didn't get it right with character replacements until May and Dawn were introduced, hence why in that scenario Misty was the one who never came back and Contests became a staple of the anime.

 

[Gaiash]

I personally loved Ash's Johto team, I just didn't like the Johto arc itself.

 

[emanuellburnell]

I don't get why people saying that the johto team was sabotaged because of the fear of being backlash. another thing just because bulbasaur,squirtle,charizard had a lot of popularity does not mean the jotho team wasn't developed and this is a lie that the damn fan base all ways good of doing and they are not forgotten they can battle really good just like his other teams.

 

[Duckgon Z]

I don't get why people saying that the johto team was sabotaged because of the fear of being backlash. another thing just because bulbasaur,squirtle,charizard had a lot of popularity does not mean the jotho team wasn't developed and this is a lie that the damn fan base all ways good of doing and they are not forgotten they can battle really good just like his other teams.

The Johto team wasn't as developed as Ash's other teams. That doesn't mean that they aren't strong, but they are currently the weakest Pokemon that Ash owns.

Just get over it.

 

[emanuellburnell]

I don't buy this crap about them being his weakest team because is not even true at all,they battle just as good as his other pokemon he own and to say that his johto team wasn't as developed as his other teams is a lie that the so called fans all ways make up stuff that not even true at all.

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

i agree with emanuellburnell

 

[Nomura]

I don't buy this crap about them being his weakest team because is not even true at all,they battle just as good as his other pokemon he own and to say that his johto team wasn't as developed as his other teams is a lie that the so called fans all ways make up stuff that not even true at all.

Dude, it's okay to feel that way...but back it up.

Granted, all the goods things the johto team did where mentioned.....but compare those things to his other pokemon...and they don't match up. I mean, if it was not for Ash's Donphan and Herracros...there would be no real power coming from his johto roster.

Go ahead, dissagree....but give me real hard evidence and quit being an annoying fanboy who uses words without logic.

 

[Cybersai]

Donphan doesn't even count as part of Ash's Johto team since Ash didn't have it until Battle Frontier, and Heracross was Oak'd while Charizard and Squirtle were still around so it doesn't count either.

Heracross goes in the Kingler, Muk, Tauros, Snorlax pile. Donphan too and part of the AG team.

Just because they're Johto Pokemon doesn't meam they were part of that team. Phanpy was, but Donphan wasn't, and that's when it got real strong.

 

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

In all fairness, if Donphan doesn't count due to his absence in the actual team (as Phanphy), then technically Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charizard (at one point), and the likes would all be considered Johto members. In this case, the team was handled brilliantly as a whole, and they don't suck at all.

 

[emanuellburnell]

Are you trying to say that i'm lying because if that what you are saying then you are the one with out any words of logic and is a much annoying fan then what you said about me. so you want proof well here it is cyndaquil defeated a sandslash in battle with that trainer and then he did battle scyther in the gym battle ,and defeated that gym leader steelix in battle and he also battle really good against that dewgong in the pryce gym battle,and he also defeated a exeggutor in the johto league.totodile beaten a kingdra and a charizard and that sneasel in the johto league,and bayleef brougt down that machoke in that gym battle with chuck and took down houndoom in battle. well that's all i can think of but there's all of your proof if that's not enough proof for you then i don't know what to say for you.

 

[Cybersai]

In all fairness, if Donphan doesn't count due to his absence in the actual team (as Phanphy), then technically Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charizard (at one point), and the likes would all be considered Johto members. In this case, the team was handled brilliantly as a whole, and they don't suck at all.

I wouldn't say that. Bulba/Squirtle/Charizard may have continued into the very beginning of Johto, but they certainly weren't part of his Johto roster. Bulbasaur and Squirtle weren't even used in any Johto Gyms, although Charizard and Snorlax were. I see that as Ash using his reserves, after all Kingler came back for the Whirl Cup, Tauros was used in a Tauros competition, and Muk was used in the league. It was just before the writers did their "fresh start" stuff, so the Kanto roster got to last a little longer into the next gen.

I would say Phanpy was part of Ash's Johto team because it was, but Donphan wasn't obviously because he didn't get it until Battle Frontier.

Likewise the other problem is Ash had Bulbasaur and Chikorita/Bayleef on his team for the same time for a good chunk of Johto. Seeing two grass types with similar movesets on the same team was ridiculous.

Ash's Johto team after the Oak'd Pokes were:

Bayleef, Cynda, Totodile, Noctowl and Phanpy.

This is what Johto was heading towards it just got delayed with the Kanto trio and Heracross in the beginning. This team certainly wasn't that well developed, Phanpy didn't become powerful until Battle Frontier. Noctowl and Totodile were only in 1 Gym each. Bayleef only had one Gym victory against Chuck. Cyndaquil had a lot of Gym wins, but compared to Charizard, Chimchar and even Torkoal, they all seemed a lot more impressive.