Your controversial opinions

[Daren]

Frankly I'm of the opinion any sort of timed exclusive in anything other than maybe an MMO is consumer-unfriendly garbage so I'm certainly no fan of most Mythicals.

 

[Sheep40]

There really should be a persistent live service for competitive players only so the games can be allowed to breathe with their systems.

Soulsborne scaling for moves? Royally breaks competitive, but could lead to a lot of good team building in PvE.

Multiple sets of four moves that take a turn to switch to? Likewise useless in PvP, But they increase the depth of PvE insanely.

Also imagine the gimmick possiblities...

 

[Daren]

There really should be a persistent live service for competitive players only so the games can be allowed to breathe with their systems.

Soulsborne scaling for moves? Royally breaks competitive, but could lead to a lot of good team building in PvE.

Multiple sets of four moves that take a turn to switch to? Likewise useless in PvP, But they increase the depth of PvE insanely.

Also imagine the gimmick possiblities...

Interesting idea; I don't see too much discussion about it, but I think the third gen saw an increased emphasis on multiplayer; the EV and Nature systems definitely strikes me as something designed primarily for that rather than the main playthrough, especially before it was possible to reset or lower them.
But more than that TM availability in gens 1 and 2 seemed designed more or less entirely around the goal of making an RPG adventure, with Crystal possibly being the first attempt to shift towards building MP teams in particular.

I think Legend's Effort Level system as a replacement is pretty interesting as a hint along that lines; it worked way better for a single player game than EVs and IVs, and Legends was the most aggressively single player the main series has ever been, but I got the impression it was not popular among competitive players and I recall a few complaints that it would ruin MP if implemented into the other games.

And I have seen a handful of other occasions where the needs to balance between both facets have caused friction. It got very bad at times in the Total War fandom.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

HMs weren't nearly as bad as people made them out to be. I don't miss them or anything, but they didn't really affect the games negatively. I rarely have useful moves on all four of each of my six pokemon's moveslots anyway; it barely hurts to have cut or rock smash on there

I will agree with that and even say that I wouldn't mind them coming back if only for the fact that we can now have Pokémon forgot and remember moves that they have been taught or learned.

I know that these are old, but I wanted to throw my hat on the ring in this matter...

If you ask me, the main issue with HMs isn't necessarily the limiting movesets thing so much as the limiting party options thing: see, let's pretend we have some kid trying out Pokemon Platinum for the first time, and their six favorite Pokemon available in that game (therefore the ones they want to use in his team) are Infernape, Clefable, Gliscor, Mismagius, Magnezone, and Yanmega. Notice how there aren't any Water-types in that lineup, meaning no Surf or Waterfall user, and the two Flying-types that they do have are ones that are inexplicably incapable of learning Fly. This essentially means that this kid will be forced to either replace some of their planned team with Pokemon that they may not like as much or make several additional captures that will have essentially no other use or purpose besides travelling through otherwise untravellable areas (granted, the sheer number of HMs in the Gen 4 games does mean that additional captures are something that just about every player needs to make, but still).

Sure, you could argue that this hypothetical kid is at fault for not liking any Water-types or Flying-types that can learn Fly, but that'd be a pretty callous thing to say if you ask me: this is a franchise that routinely encourages people to play with their favorite Pokemon, and in a way the HM system effectively punished those who didn't happen to like the "right" favorites. Now that HMs are gone, people can truly build their teams however they like and using whatever Pokemon they like.

 

[Dr. Gro 3001]

I know that these are old, but I wanted to throw my hat on the ring in this matter...

If you ask me, the main issue with HMs isn't necessarily the limiting movesets thing so much as the limiting party options thing: see, let's pretend we have some kid trying out Pokemon Platinum for the first time, and their six favorite Pokemon available in that game (therefore the ones they want to use in his team) are Infernape, Clefable, Gliscor, Mismagius, Magnezone, and Yanmega. Notice how there aren't any Water-types in that lineup, meaning no Surf or Waterfall user, and the two Flying-types that they do have are ones that are inexplicably incapable of learning Fly. This essentially means that this kid will be forced to either replace some of their planned team with Pokemon that they may not like as much or make several additional captures that will have essentially no other use or purpose besides travelling through otherwise untravellable areas (granted, the sheer number of HMs in the Gen 4 games does mean that additional captures are something that just about every player needs to make, but still).

Sure, you could argue that this hypothetical kid is at fault for not liking any Water-types or Flying-types that can learn Fly, but that'd be a pretty callous thing to say if you ask me: this is a franchise that routinely encourages people to play with their favorite Pokemon, and in a way the HM system effectively punished those who didn't happen to like the "right" favorites. Now that HMs are gone, people can truly build their teams however they like and using whatever Pokemon they like.

That is fair, and honestly, I don't mind the hms being gone for the most part. They have basically been replaced with the various Ride Pokémon. I will say that we are lacking a bit of a puzzle/dungeon exploration element with hms missing or at least with the various Ride Pokémon not having a gimmick to explore dungeons. I know that Pokémon isn't really a dungeon exploration/puzzle solving game, save some gyms, but it does occasionally feel like something is lacking in some newer games.

 

[Princess Viola]

I think the Pokémon games are just becoming too big to fail at this point. Sure, there was tons of (fully justified) criticisms of the performance issues and glitches in Scarlet and Violet from both the hardcore fanbase (people who would actively join and post on Pokémon forums like this one) and from casual fans on social media (not to mention the games receiving mixed reviews from critics) and yet the games still have sold massively well to the point where they're currently the 7th best-selling Switch game of all time.

Sure, we do have things like the COO of The Pokémon Company talking about how they should try to ensure the quality of the games while keeping up the release schedule (even though, IMO, the release schedule for Pokémon is the entire problem) but I would honestly say at this point, unless they release a game that is literally unplayable and just doesn't work at all, it doesn't matter how poor quality the games are because there's always going to be that massive audience who just buys the games because they're Pokémon and doesn't know or care about performance issues and that audience dwarfs the hardcore fanbase who will give criticism for the games not performing up to modern standards.

 

[Sheep40]

Or the company restructures.

It very may well soon given Japan's Economy.

 

[Bolt Strike]

I think the Pokémon games are just becoming too big to fail at this point. Sure, there was tons of (fully justified) criticisms of the performance issues and glitches in Scarlet and Violet from both the hardcore fanbase (people who would actively join and post on Pokémon forums like this one) and from casual fans on social media (not to mention the games receiving mixed reviews from critics) and yet the games still have sold massively well to the point where they're currently the 7th best-selling Switch game of all time.

Sure, we do have things like the COO of The Pokémon Company talking about how they should try to ensure the quality of the games while keeping up the release schedule (even though, IMO, the release schedule for Pokémon is the entire problem) but I would honestly say at this point, unless they release a game that is literally unplayable and just doesn't work at all, it doesn't matter how poor quality the games are because there's always going to be that massive audience who just buys the games because they're Pokémon and doesn't know or care about performance issues and that audience dwarfs the hardcore fanbase who will give criticism for the games not performing up to modern standards.

Thing is that we're kind of close to that kind of Pokemon game that's unplayable, and if Game Freak continues operating the way they are we might get there as soon as 10th gen. The games are only getting more difficult and time consuming to develop with them transitioning to console. Short 1-3 year dev times with ~100 person dev teams do not get the job done on a modern HD console, and with newer gens pushing even stronger graphical capabilities and technologies, this is inevitably going to break Game Freak some day. Something has to give, and ideally it should be the time/manpower constraints.

EDIT: Forgot to respond to this.

I think Legend's Effort Level system as a replacement is pretty interesting as a hint along that lines; it worked way better for a single player game than EVs and IVs, and Legends was the most aggressively single player the main series has ever been, but I got the impression it was not popular among competitive players and I recall a few complaints that it would ruin MP if implemented into the other games.

I really don't understand the advantage of EVs and IVs or why competitive players feel like ELs would ruin it. ELs feel like a clear improvement on the system and I fail to see what advantages EVs and IVs still retain. You don't have to waste time SRing good ELs because freshly caught Pokemon just come with a higher EL level instead of an intrinsic, nearly immutable stat. It's much more visible and easier to track. And it's far more flexible because you don't need to beat specific Pokemon with specific EV gains and Grit items are plentiful. What exactly do they want from EVs and IVs that they're not getting from ELs?

 

[Daren]

I really don't understand the advantage of EVs and IVs or why competitive players feel like ELs would ruin it. ELs feel like a clear improvement on the system and I fail to see what advantages EVs and IVs still retain. You don't have to waste time SRing good ELs because freshly caught Pokemon just come with a higher EL level instead of an intrinsic, nearly immutable stat. It's much more visible and easier to track. And it's far more flexible because you don't need to beat specific Pokemon with specific EV gains and Grit items are plentiful. What exactly do they want from EVs and IVs that they're not getting from ELs?

I'm not a competitive player and I don't know the specifics, but my comment was based off a few posts about EL and earlier ones I'd read complaining about gen 1 and 2's capless system; if I had to guess it might be seen as slowing battles down a lot due to the bulk increase? Some of it was just "having to make decisions is good" type comments.

Personally I think IVs and EV are just a terribly designed system and am sort of amazed how many of the games inspired by Pokémon copy them nowadays.
Edit: That said I tend to dislike RPGs and other games that hyper focus on specialization.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

personally, i don't think EVs and IVs are that bad. I like it that pokemon of the same species and level are still not identical, through ways that are not easily visible to casual players. makes them feel more like real animals; irl, animals of the same species also aren't identical. IVs an EVs barely matter in a casual playthrough anyway; the only time i've cared about them was when i did competitive, and the competitive community seemingly doesn't want the system to change.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

personally, i don't think EVs and IVs are that bad. I like it that pokemon of the same species and level are still not identical, through ways that are not easily visible to casual players. makes them feel more like real animals; irl, animals of the same species also aren't identical. IVs an EVs barely matter in a casual playthrough anyway; the only time i've cared about them was when i did competitive, and the competitive community seemingly doesn't want the system to change.

See, the problem with this reasoning is that EVs and IVs serving as a way to make each Pokemon feel like individuals sure sounds like something more intended for casual playthroughs; surely in this day and age there are ways to make Pokemon feel like individuals without needlessly hampering their effectiveness in combat, especially now that Hidden Power (which is about the only thing that actually justified IVs sticking around for as long as they did) has been axed. One possible example is to make it so that IVs/Natures affect things like how fast a Pokemon levels up instead of the stats, or letting certain members naturally learn attacks that their species would normally require TMs/Tutors/Breeding to obtain.

Also, I have met quite a few competitive players that actually wouldn't mind the EV/IV system to be completely removed or overhauled, largely because it'd make making competitive builds in the actual games faster, easier, and more convenient (note that the whole reason online simulators exist is because they bypass all the EV-training and IV-breeding madness); about the only point of contention is that Attack IVs in special attackers and Speed IVs in Trick Room teams tend to be set at 0 for strategic purposes and that's not something that can be truly replicated with a different system, but just about every other type of competitive build would be completely unchanged if EVs/IVs were retired or revamped.

 

[Daren]

See, the problem with this reasoning is that EVs and IVs serving as a way to make each Pokemon feel like individuals sure sounds like something more intended for casual playthroughs; surely in this day and age there are ways to make Pokemon feel like individuals without needlessly hampering their effectiveness in combat, especially now that Hidden Power (which is about the only thing that actually justified IVs sticking around for as long as they did) has been axed. One possible example is to make it so that IVs/Natures affect things like how fast a Pokemon levels up instead of the stats, or letting certain members naturally learn attacks that their species would normally require TMs/Tutors/Breeding to obtain.

To some extent I'm not even sure it's necessary to make individuals of the same species unique with randomized elements (or in the case of EVs as good as randomized when you're going trough the story); how often are people catching multiple of a single Pokémon and giving them the same moves? Would the kids really mind if his level 10 Fuecoco has the same stats as his friends level 10 Fuecoco anymore than it does in other RPGs?

Even a variation on PLA's system could work fine, I think; a fresh wild Pokémon has randomized EL within a range then can be increased by using items or training or whatever method, without being as unnecessarily opaque as EVs.

Also, I have met quite a few competitive players that actually wouldn't mind the EV/IV system to be completely removed or overhauled, largely because it'd make making competitive builds in the actual games faster, easier, and more convenient (note that the whole reason online simulators exist is because they bypass all the EV-training and IV-breeding madness); about the only point of contention is that Attack IVs in special attackers and Speed IVs in Trick Room teams tend to be set at 0 for strategic purposes and that's not something that can be truly replicated with a different system, but just about every other type of competitive build would be completely unchanged if EVs/IVs were retired or revamped.

If I recall correctly not long ago there was a controversy about just how many Pokémon used in official tournaments were created or edited with outside programs because of just how tedious the system is to make a party ready for top end MP.

 

[Sheep40]

Alterations to the level curve and getting free points to allocate to stats would be a godsend.

You know what, pokemon should just embrace the fact that it's a JRPG already.

Just turning it into a smol indie Kusoge JRPG would cost no more than they already do now and would improve on everything to such a point that it shuts up the fans on the technical side for a gen.

 

[There Is No Arceus]

One issue with taking away IVs though is that that would mean your pokemon no longer pass anything on to their offspring. Having no system of inheritance other than things like egg moves would make breeding feel hollow; what even is there connecting the child and the parent? This wasn't an issue in PLA because breeding wasn't a thing, but it is a thing in other pokemon games.

Hidden Power (which is about the only thing that actually justified IVs sticking around for as long as they did)

Hidden power did not justify that. They could have easily made that be determined by factors other than IVs, like they did with shinyness, gender and Unown's forms.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

One issue with taking away IVs though is that that would mean your pokemon no longer pass anything on to their offspring. Having no system of inheritance other than things like egg moves would make breeding feel hollow; what even is there connecting the child and the parent? This wasn't an issue in PLA because breeding wasn't a thing, but it is a thing in other pokemon games.

I don't think breeding would be made hollow without IVs: it would still be useful for shiny aficionados, for one. Also, the whole passing down moves from parent to child thing would still remain (heck, if anything this part of breeding would be improved without IVs, since you'd only need to breed your Pokemon once to get the ideal offspring rather than pumping out a gazillion eggs and hope you get the lottery sooner rather than later). Plus, QOL features that exist just for the sake flavor are perfectly fine; maybe there's some kid who thinks that their Raichu and Furret make the cutest couple and would love for them to have a kid, for example. That imo makes keeping breeding around worth it even without IVs.

Hidden power did not justify that. They could have easily made that be determined by factors other than IVs, like they did with shinyness, gender and Unown's forms.

Well, then doesn't this just further strengthen my point, then?

 

[There Is No Arceus]

egg moves don't even require breeding anymore though; nowadays, if your pokemon holds a special item, they can get the egg move directly from the pokemon they're sleeping with (don't remember which item cause i've never used the system). While i agree that breeding being there for flavour alone would still be a good thing, i feel like there should still be heritable traits for pokemon to pass on. Breeding ton of pokemon for the right stats isn't even necessary anymore anyway; we've got bottle caps nowadays.

 

[Handium]

if your pokemon holds a special item, they can get the egg move directly from the pokemon they're sleeping with (don't remember which item cause i've never used the system).

Mirror Herb

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

egg moves don't even require breeding anymore though; nowadays, if your pokemon holds a special item, they can get the egg move directly from the pokemon they're sleeping with (don't remember which item cause i've never used the system). While i agree that breeding being there for flavour alone would still be a good thing, i feel like there should still be heritable traits for pokemon to pass on. Breeding ton of pokemon for the right stats isn't even necessary anymore anyway; we've got bottle caps nowadays.

The item in question is Mirror Herb. Also, since you yourself have pointed out that Bottle Caps make breeding unnecessary, then why would removing the IV system be any worse for the mechanic than Bottle Caps already are?

As for inheritable traits, how about Marks? Several of these can be earned, but there are quite a few that are inherent; maybe a parent could pass a "Grumpy" or a "Sociable" mark onto their child of they themselves also have it.

 

[Daren]

That imo makes keeping breeding around worth it even without IVs.

Plus there's always breeding starters, fossils, Eevee, and other rare or version exclusive Pokémon for trading or other purposes.

I dunno, I still think a franchise that wants to do it's best to put in friendship themes and talk about love and trust shouldn't make replacing your party members so desirable, and frankly I don't think the breeding has ever really been interesting in terms of gameplay; mostly it's just a handful of moves and passing down traits that species already potentially has.

 

[Daenerys]

Mythical Pokemon is a useless idea that only favors fortunate players, and this is coming from someone who had the ability to get Mythical Pokemon ever since Sun and Moon.

I don't necessarily agree, but just to play Devil's advocate, I feel like the same could apply to Shiny Pokemon since luck plays a big part in finding them, so only fortunate players with lots of spare time can get the Shinies that they want. And even if you go out of your way to hunt down specific Shinies in the games, depending on which game you're playing, it could take ages and you're not guaranteed to find the Shiny that you want even after all the effort.

If it wasn't already apparent, I don't like Shiny Pokemon. There's no real benefit to having them other than them being nice to look at and to have bragging rights I guess? And there's plenty of Shiny Pokemon that in my opinion don't look better than their non-Shiny counterparts. Whenever I get lucky enough to find a Shiny I'll catch it sure, but only to use as trade fodder.