Gen VII (Alolan) Pokemon that are a good counters to previous generation Pokemon?

[Matleo]

Lets take say Aegislash, ghost/steel with Stance Change
lets say, it physical and special attacks may be good with its ability but there are posibble counters to notice. Taking that Sacred Sword is a fighting type move.

HP:60
Attack: 50
Defense: 150
Sp.Atk: 50
Sp.Def: 150
Speed: 60

Good counters against it may be:

Salazzle with Corrosion, speed 108, it maybe will not take it out but it will crumble. (this one makes many steel and poison types fear, even mega Venusaur can get hurt, maybe not KOed but it has something to show)

Incineroar with Darkest Lariat if it gets 's faster. It has the needed bulk.

Primarina with Shadow Ball, if it survives the first turn if no steel type moves come into play.

Mudsdale with Stamina.
(if they give it only Stomping Tantrum and Fissure then it will be a monster, I dont Undesrtand why High Horsepower was not done a priority move like First Impresion???)

Bewear , normal against ghost and fighting against steel+ its bulk and moveset(Earthquake,dark type moves, Shadow claw, Bulldoze, Stomping Tantrum)

Turtonator with Shell Trap if its oponent(Aegislash) gets physical.

Deciduey, 70 speed , Long Reach(when we get it), ghost typing and Spirit Schakle are not that bad against King's Shield.

fire/flying Oricorio can hit hard and Dancer could come handy if Sword Dance comes into play.


What counters do you see for other examples?

 

[lavandula]

If Talonflame wasn't nerfed, there's still Tapu Lele that shuts it down with psychic terrain.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Primarina with Shadow Ball, if it survives the first turn if no steel type moves come into play.

While Primarina's Special Attack is nice, a coverage move alone isn't exactly a counter. Ash-Greninja would be much better for the job-it gets STAB Dark-type moves, and an even higher Special Attack than Primarina.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Is it strange for me to think that the Land Spirits - all of them - counter Alola's own pseudo-Legendary (Kommo-o) pretty hard? Its typing causes a x4 weakness to Fairy-type moves, which all of them share as a primary STAB - and all of them are very suited for battle.

Other than that, I don't think I can do any quick analysis of a Pokémon that directly counters another.

 

[Matleo]

Kommo-o is a good counter to all grass/dark pokemon.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Kommo-o is a good counter to all grass/dark types.

Tapu Bulu.

I have a feeling you're really stretching for stuff here, lol.

 

[Matleo]

Tapu Bulu.

Tapu Bulu? grass/fairy?

I had on mind grass/dark dual typing those with dual typing, like Shiftry and Cacturne.

Kommo-o Its a dragon/fighting, good against electric, fire, grass, water, bug, dark and rock the only problem is it's speed and lack of increased priority moves like Quick Attack, Bullet Punch(against fairies), Mach Punch(against steel and dark), Sucker Punch(against ghost).

If it got those 3 punches then it would be in a other league.
Do we have a pokemon that learns all those 3 priority punches?

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Nuzleaf, Shiftry, and Cacturne are the only Grass/Dark types. And they weren't exactly in need of a counter-they have their double weakness to Bug for that.

There's more to moves than just priority. Bullet Punch and Mach Punch have a pretty low base power-unless a Pokemon gets STAB on them, they're not always going to be helpful. Sucker Punch only work when a Pokemon's readying an attack, and its base PP is only 5-an opponent could get rid of that just by using a few status moves, or even with Spite.

And on the same point, there's more to Pokemon than their resistances. Sure, Dragon resists Water, like it always has-but most Water-types can learn Ice Beam. Resisting STAB doesn't make a Pokemon a counter, especially with all the dual-types out there-Kommo-o certainly isn't a counter to Talonflame, for example.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Perhaps he just really likes Kommo-o. Unfortunately, due to its typing, I see itself being countered by other pokes far more often, especially with its stat distribution the way it is - its Fairy weakness is big, and as for others, it's weak to Ice, Dragon, Flying and Psychic - a rather nasty combination given how often those four types are seen in the metagame offensively.

Even disregarding all that, Kommo-o itself kinda got screwed by the lore and Pokédex entries - its best physical Fighting-type STAB move is Sky Uppercut! Really, there's more to counters than just directly countering by STAB attacks - Pyukumuku and Wobbuffet don't even attack directly!

In all honesty there's not a lot that originates from Alola that could directly hard counter a Pokémon. Bruxish is one of the few exceptions to this, because with Dazzling along with its typing and Psychic Fangs, it's basically entirely intended to screw Talonflame over - not that the Gale Wings nerf helped it any.

 

[Matleo]

Kommo-o itself kinda got screwed

If it would get priority moves and with its good attack it could be good. Imagine Bullet Punch, then it would be a good fairy and ice slayer.
The same goes for Mach Punch(ice,steel,dark) and Sucker Punch(ghost,psychic).

There's more to moves than just priority. Bullet Punch and Mach Punch have a pretty low base power-unless a Pokemon gets STAB on them, they're not always going to be helpful. Sucker Punch only work when a Pokemon's readying an attack, and its base PP is only 5-an opponent could get rid of that just by using a few status moves, or even with Spite.

And on the same point, there's more to Pokemon than their resistances. Sure, Dragon resists Water, like it always has-but most Water-types can learn Ice Beam. Resisting STAB doesn't make a Pokemon a counter, especially with all the dual-types out there-Kommo-o certainly isn't a counter to Talonflame, for example.

Mach Punch or Bullet Punch against ice type pokemon??? both 2x effective.
What if it got First Impression?
I know , but how else would you buff it? it has already good abilities and only priority and speed rising/reducing moves come into mind for some situations.

It should get Sucker Punch seeing its pokedex enntries.

________________________________________________
there are really good counters in Alola , Lycanroc day form also if a Talonflame, Charizard slayer with accel rock and its speed.

Sandyghast line is a good counter to many electric types if you think of it longer and its moveset allows it to trap them well if they not run.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Mach Punch or Bullet Punch against ice type pokemon??? both 2x effective.

Rock Smash is also super effective against Ice, Steel, and Normal types-and yet its low base power (the same as Mach Punch's) has left it pretty underused.

What if it got First Impression?

Why would it get a Bug-type signature move?

I know , but how else would you buff it? it has already good abilities and only priority and speed rising/reducing moves come into mind for some situations.

There's a lot more out there than just speed or priority. Why not give it some Defense-raising moves to help it stand some hits?

It should get Sucker Punch seeing its pokedex enntries.

What in its Dex entries implies it would be using Sucker Punch?

there are really good counters in Alola , Lycanroc day form also if a Talonflame, Charizard slayer with accel rock and its speed.

That is true, a priority double weakness definitely hits hard.

Sandyghast line is a good counter to many electric types if you think of it longer and its moveset allows it to trap them well if they not run.

"Trap them if they don't flee" isn't trapping at all. And while a Ground-type is certainly a good counter to Electric-types, Sandygast is far from the only Ground-type.

 

[Matleo]

Why would it get a Bug-type signature move?

why not? many pokes got moves not related with their own type.
Think of it coming from the same region, time passes, evolution and some slow pokes could also use it.
Especially other bug types and pokemon that need a speed fix when it comes to movesets.

"Trap them if they don't flee" isn't trapping at all. And while a Ground-type is certainly a good counter to Electric-types, Sandygast is far from the only Ground-type.

speed, if something is faster it will run of the battle, it dosnt have Arena Trap. It needs to use a move.
There is a occasion to switch.
But ghost typing makes you immune to fighting and normal coverage, plus its a good counter to Alolan Geodude line.

What in its Dex entries implies it would be using Sucker Punch?

fighting a great evil? if you fight evil you need a good move.

There's a lot more out there than just speed or priority. Why not give it some Defense-raising moves to help it stand some hits?

yes but how long will you last if you are slower then the foe?
if next turn is needed then it would make sense to get something , if you use Revenge and then a priority move, only a suggestion. That would boost a little up, but other options are also needed, that we know all.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

why not? many pokes got moves not related with their own type.

Yes, but not signature moves. (And moves that aren't a Pokemon's type are often learned through artificial means, especially when types are extremely different like Bug and Dragon)

Think of it coming from the same region, time passes, evolution and some slow pokes could also use it.

For evolutionary changes like that, there'd need to be a pretty large amount of time passing, and I don't think the next game would take place thousands of years in the future.

speed, if something is faster it will run of the battle

There are plenty of slower Pokemon that can hold their own just fine in battle. Speed isn't everything.

it dosnt have Arena Trap. It needs to use a move.

Why does it need to trap Pokemon?

There is a occasion to switch.

Speed is irrelevant to switching. Switching out Pokemon always happens before any move in battle except for Pursuit.

fighting a great evil? if you fight evil you need a good move.

None of its dex entries mention it fighting a great evil. And "a good move" is an incredibly vague justification-why not give it Roar of Time, then? Isn't Roar of Time a good move?

yes but how long will you last if you are slower then the foe?

If you've got your Defense boosted? Quite a while.

 

[Matleo]

For evolutionary changes like that, there'd need to be a pretty large amount of time passing, and I don't think the next game would take place thousands of years in the future.

nt necessary, pople sometimes dont think its poribble to breed or teach it... there is a posibility that in a future region its a TM and more can learn it.

There are plenty of slower Pokemon that can hold their own just fine in battle. Speed isn't everything

yes if you use them against the right foe and with right strategy, but movesets did change in the past, priority allows us to make a great diffrence in speed. Or we would need seperate speed status , into physical speed and special speed. But I dont know how that would work out.
If speed is not everthing then why people complained so about how slow Alolan pokemon and this generation are?
now they fear a moveset change next game/generation?

Why does it need to trap Pokemon?

why then use traps?

None of its dex entries mention it fighting a great evil. And "a good move" is an incredibly vague justification-why not give it Roar of Time, then? Isn't Roar of Time a good move?

i had a harder day, you are right the dex entry mentions only about scales and weapons...
but it learns 4 dark type moves... why not give it priority moves?
its a fighting type and on 2 feet it should be able to learn Quick Attack and Mach Punch like Blaziken does.Even if its speed is 85, 5 points higher then Blazikens.

How many fighting pokemon learn increased priority moves ? and kind of those moves are the most learned by them?

Kid, stop. Just...stop. It's obvious you know jack about competitive battling. Using logic like this only highlights that you understand nothing.

That's fine. That's not a bad thing. We were all rookies once. But instead of going around talking utter shit and pretending like it's a valid opinion, you have to learn how to shut up and listen. Learn how to play the damn game before spouting off an opinion based on complete ignorance. Quiet down and actually learn from the people that know more than you. Once you do that, you will actually be able to contribute to these conversations instead of taking away from them. So please, for your, mine, and everyone esle's sake, just. Stop.

You're providing nothing of value right now. Even the topic of this thread is completely pointless. You cannot teach a class before you learn the material. That's not how it works. So shut up and learn, damnit.

Yes Socrates, I know that I dont know everything, but I try to see things from other angles.
Don't be angry at me , everyone has better or worser days and opinions...

 

[Lou Lam Lea]

I was moved by y'all's baneful banter that I just had to create an account. Hello, guys! New challenger, here! Simply, I wanted to add that this generation VII Alola emphasized on Trap Pokemon. Did anybody else notice how many of the Sinnoh Pokemon were absent? As much as we love speed demons, most Alolan movesets revolve around trapping mons. Here's a question: which generation specialized in speed? Hoenn?

 

[TechSkylander1518]

nt necessary, pople sometimes dont think its poribble to breed or teach it... there is a posibility that in a future region its a TM and more can learn it.

No signature move has been made into a TM. Golispod and Kommo-o are in entirely different egg groups-if they're not similar enough to breed together, why should they share a signature move?

yes if you use them against the right foe and with right strategy,

It's not even a matter of getting the right foe-get a Pokemon that can tank hits and recover from them, and it doesn't really matter what foe you're going up against.

but movesets did change in the past, priority allows us to make a great diffrence in speed.

Yes, but most priority moves have a base power of only 40. (The same base power as Tackle) Better to go second and deal more damage than to go first and barely do a scratch.

Or we would need seperate speed status , into physical speed and special speed. But I dont know how that would work out.

Terribly. Status moves are left out of this entirely, and how would you calculate who goes first if one Pokemon uses a special attack and the other uses a physical one?

If speed is not everthing then why people complained so about how slow Alolan pokemon and this generation are?

People can complain about anything, that doesn't mean it's all that matters.

now they fear a moveset change next game/generation?

I've never seen anyone concerned about a change in moves for Alolan Pokemon next gen.

why then use traps?

Who said Palossand has to be a trap?

but it learns 4 dark type moves... why not give it priority moves?

That's a silly justification. Learning some Dark-type moves doesn't mean it should have to learn priority moves any more than learning Flamethrower means it should get Sacred Fire.

its a fighting type and on 2 feet it should be able to learn Quick Attack and Mach Punch like Blaziken does.Even if its speed is 85, 5 points higher then Blazikens.

Quick Attack is learned by a variety of Pokemon, very few of which are actually Fighting-type or on two feet. Blaziken does not learn Mach Punch.

How many fighting pokemon learn increased priority moves ? and kind of those moves are the most learned by them?

Do you mean that Fighting-types tend to learn increased priority moves more than other kinds of moves, or that more Fighting-types learn increased priority moves than any other kind?

No Fighting-types learn Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, or Shadow Sneak. (Excluding Gallade learning Shadow Sneak as an egg move, when it's a Fairy/Psychic) Only one Fighting-type learns Extreme Speed.

There are only 36 moves with increased priority, nine of which are signature moves, and three of which no Fighting-type Pokemon learn by leveling up. Fighting-types have to learn more moves with regular priority than moves with increased priority-24 moves is far too small for a movepool.

I was moved by y'all's baneful banter that I just had to create an account. Hello, guys! New challenger, here! Simply, I wanted to add that this generation VII Alola emphasized on Trap Pokemon. Did anybody else notice how many of the Sinnoh Pokemon were absent? As much as we love speed demons, most Alolan movesets revolve around trapping mons. Here's a question: which generation specialized in speed? Hoenn?

Do Mega Evolutions count? Gen 6 definitely introduced a lot of high-speed Pokemon...What are we considering "fast"? There's definitely a lot of high-speed Pokemon introduced in Hoenn, but there's also quite a number of lines that don't break 100 in their speed...

 

[Matleo]

I was moved by y'all's baneful banter that I just had to create an account. Hello, guys! New challenger, here! Simply, I wanted to add that this generation VII Alola emphasized on Trap Pokemon. Did anybody else notice how many of the Sinnoh Pokemon were absent? As much as we love speed demons, most Alolan movesets revolve around trapping mons. Here's a question: which generation specialized in speed? Hoenn?

I have a other question, if you trap something/ anything? should you not reduce its speed also doing that?

signature move?

we dont know if its signature? we didnt know if "Powder" was signature?
they can change that in 1 or 2 generations for other pokes.

It's not even a matter of getting the right foe-get a Pokemon that can tank hits and recover from them, and it doesn't really matter what foe you're going up against.

type, ability, stats, movepoll? really matter?

Yes, but most priority moves have a base power of only 40. (The same base power as Tackle) Better to go second and deal more damage than to go first and barely do a scratch.

not if you are low on hp and want to finish the foe faster of the he does with you.

Terribly. Status moves are left out of this entirely, and how would you calculate who goes first if one Pokemon uses a special attack and the other uses a physical one?

physial speed 60 and special speed 70, normally calculation, but every pokes would need 2 speed stats and many moves would need to change, becuse some would need to reduce physical, ones special, some both, some more, some less. That would need many work and to other think what pokemon should be faster or slower in what stats.

Who said Palossand has to be a trap?

it learns ground and bug trapping moves.

That's a silly justification. Learning some Dark-type moves doesn't mean it should have to learn priority moves any more than learning Flamethrower means it should get Sacred Fire.

its a fighting type based on a Island fighter, that should allow it to learn atleast some priority moves.
(its a dragon and a dragon should get something against fairies.)

Blaziken does not learn Mach Punch.

sorry,
Infernape.

No Fighting-types learn Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, or Shadow Sneak. (Excluding Gallade learning Shadow Sneak as an egg move, when it's a Fairy/Psychic) Only one Fighting-type learns Extreme Speed.

Mmmm, that would make room for more pokes in future even for a new water/fighting starter, bear type.
Ice shard? Crabominable why? why?

There are only 36 moves with increased priority, nine of which are signature moves, and three of which no Fighting-type Pokemon learn by leveling up. Fighting-types have to learn more moves with regular priority than moves with increased priority-24 moves is far too small for a movepool.

this would be a good way to create more pokemon and to make diffrences in existing ones.

Do Mega Evolutions count? Gen 6 definitely introduced a lot of high-speed Pokemon...What are we considering "fast"? There's definitely a lot of high-speed Pokemon introduced in Hoenn, but there's also quite a number of lines that don't break 100 in their speed...

we will wait and see, slow pokes are also not that bad if they get right moves.
Im waiting to see what buff will Torterra get in future.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I have a other question, if you trap something/ anything? should you not reduce its speed also doing that?

I don't really see why-you can be stuck in a room but still move fast in the room itself.

we dont know if its signature? we didnt know if "Powder" was signature?

Both of them are signature moves. A signature move is a move that no other Pokemon learns by leveling up. While it's true we don't know if a new Pokemon later would learn it, or if another Pokemon would have its learnset changed to suit it, it's certainly a fact that no other Pokemon get it. (And Pokemon that have their learnsets changed in later generations usually have a connection to the move-Mismagius got Mystical Fire because it's based on a witch, Gogoat got Milk Drink because goats give milk. Jangmo-o doesn't really have any connection to First Impression.)

type, ability, stats, movepoll? really matter?

I was looking at it just with stats, but yes, those are all important factors in battle. Like I said, speed isn't everything.

not if you are low on hp and want to finish the foe faster of the he does with you.

While certainly useful, it's not a situation that's all that common. (and there's always switching out, too-your opponent is weak, too, after all)

physial speed 60 and special speed 70, normally calculation,.

I don't really understand what you mean by this.

but every pokes would need 2 speed stats and many moves would need to change, becuse some would need to reduce physical, ones special, some both, some more, some less. That would need many work and to other think what pokemon should be faster or slower in what stats.

Far too complicated, and this still leaves out status moves.

it learns ground and bug trapping moves.

Just because a Pokemon can learn one kind of move doesn't mean that has to be its role-it can learn 49 other moves.

its a fighting type based on a Island fighter, that should allow it to learn atleast some priority moves.

Not all Fighting-types get priority moves. I don't really understand what Island fighting has to do with priority, could you explain?

(its a dragon and a dragon should get something against fairies.)

A major point for the Fairy type was to keep Dragons from being overpowered-not every Dragon-type should get a counter to them. (that happens a lot outside of the Dragon type, too-not many Water-types get Ground-type moves, for example)

Mmmm, that would make room for more pokes in future even for a new water/fighting starter, bear type.

I'm hoping Water/Fighting gets explored more, there's a lot of interesting possibilities there!

Ice shard? Crabominable why? why?

I think it's because it's supposed to be really slow-a really low Speed stat, and its sig move lowers its Speed even more.

 

[Matleo]

Both of them are signature moves. A signature move is a move that no other Pokemon learns by leveling up. While it's true we don't know if a new Pokemon later would learn it, or if another Pokemon would have its learnset changed to suit it, it's certainly a fact that no other Pokemon get it. (And Pokemon that have their learnsets changed in later generations usually have a connection to the move-Mismagius got Mystical Fire because it's based on a witch, Gogoat got Milk Drink because goats give milk. Jangmo-o doesn't really have any connection to First Impression.)

touche.

I was looking at it just with stats, but yes, those are all important factors in battle. Like I said, speed isn't everything.

yes but would it be cool if for one or two pokemon speed would be everything?
or not? a new version of Disquise that uses the speed diffrence and lasts for maybe 3 turns, that if the user is faster then oponent it could not be hit by oponents moves, it would were of becuse everything needs to slow down after a while. (increased priority moves would be abble to hit it)
And maybe a reverse vesion of it for a other new poke that if something is faster then it then it could not break its barrier. (decreased priority moves would come in handy against this one)

and trick room could mess up and fix things nicely.

I don't really understand what you mean by this.

that if pokemon A with physical speed 60 would attack pokemom B(special speed 70) with a physical attack and pokemon B would attack pokemon A with a special attack , then Pokemon B would hit first and pokemon A would go second.

Not all Fighting-types get priority moves. I don't really understand what Island fighting has to do with priority, could you explain?

Hawaian style of battling uses the effect of great speed and of surprise, thats why I came up with Sucker Punch and thats what I wanted priority moves... Komo reminds me of Island fighters that were knows for fast tricks.
As you pointed out early, Bullet Punch is not that strong even against fairies and Sucker Punch has it flaws.

I think it's because it's supposed to be really slow-a really low Speed stat, and its sig move lowers its Speed even more.

thats weird, a strong hammer move that lowers its own speed?
but it could be a little stronger, Overheat reduces speciall attack 2 stages and has 130BP.

I tough Ice type should get a buff not a decresed more.
I though ice hammer should reduce oponents speed not make a slow poke even more slow?

I know its slow, but why not let it have some trump card of some priority moves like Mach Punch and Ice Shard?
taking that it has low both defences and 43 speed 6 weaknesses , fairy, flying, fighting, steel ,fire and psychic? Hello?
It would really need sucker punch, mach punch and bullet punch.
I know Ice shard BP is 40 and its physical and Crabominable has 132 attack stats , maybe thats why they dint wanted a new grass, ground, flying,dragon killer... but they could let it have Aqua Jet for a joke, bacuse ice melts and its a Crab for sake...
Were is Crabhammer? a crab without that move?
imagine it learning both Aqua Jet and Crabhammer?

 

[TechSkylander1518]

yes but would it be cool if for one or two pokemon speed would be everything?

Types, other stats, held items, and abilities are always going to affect battle, there's no way around it.

that if pokemon A with physical speed 60 would attack pokemom B(special speed 70) with a physical attack and pokemon B would attack pokemon A with a special attack , then Pokemon B would hit first and pokemon A would go second.

I see. What if Pokemon A's Special Speed is higher than Pokemon B's Special Speed in the same situation? Should Pokemon B still go first even when it's slower?

thats weird, a strong hammer move that lowers its own speed?

It's not the first move-Hammer Arm does the exact same Speed.

but it could be a little stronger, Overheat reduces speciall attack 2 stages and has 130BP.

Overheat-As a Special move, most Pokemon using it are going to want a high Special Attack. It decreases its own power, and by two stages.
Ice Hammer-Speed has no effect on its base power. It can only be learned by a Pokemon that already a very low Speed, so nobody is going to lose much by lowering it further. It also only lowers its Speed by one stage, while Overheat lowers Special Attack by two.

I tough Ice type should get a buff not a decresed more.

Ice Hammer is learned by exactly one Pokemon. That's not exactly hurting the Ice type. (We also got Aurora Veil this generation, not exactly a nerf to the type)

I though ice hammer should reduce oponents speed not make a slow poke even more slow?

Because it's already so slow, lowering its speed doesn't hurt it as much. There's only two turns in a round, after all. (or four in a double battle)

I know its slow, but why not let it have some trump card of some priority moves like Mach Punch and Ice Shard?

Moves with a base power of 40 are suddenly trump cards? What about Extreme Speed?

taking that it has low both defences and 43 speed

While not stellar, 77 Defense and 67 Special Defense isn't exactly low.

fairy, flying, fighting, steel ,fire and psychic? Hello?

Flying is weak to Ice, which it gets STAB on. Steel is weak to Fighting, which it also gets STAB on. And it's not the only Pokemon with that many weaknesses.

but they could let it have Aqua Jet for a joke, bacuse ice melts and its a Crab for sake...

Not all Ice-types get Aqua Jet.

Were is Crabhammer? a crab without that move?

It can learn Crabhammer, as a Crabrawler.