God Pokemon?

[Habunake]

This isn't fucking Norse, Egyptian, or whatever mythology.

It's goddamn Pokemon.

 

[TTEchidna]

Yeah, well, since it is a very common rule in mythology that the gods control humans, and that they cannot be captured by mere mortals, among other things, I'm pretty sure that it DOES make it invalid.

It was a rule that legendaries couldn't breed, too, and look at Manaphy.

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

It was a rule that legendaries couldn't breed, too, and look at Manaphy.

Yeah, but then again, it was hinted in the games that they actually DO breed, it's just that they don't want to breed in breeding centers.

(case in point, their being multitudes of legendary birds [brandon owns a set, the Legendary Birds in Kanto, the Legendary Birds in Orre, plus the Legendary Birds having eggs in Pokemon Snap.], multitudes of the legendary beasts (there were multitudes of them in Fiore, Orre, Johto, and possibly others), there were multitudes of the legendary Golems [Brandon owned a set in the Battle Frontier, whileas at the same time the golems are whistfully asleep in their caves/owned in your possession/KOed], there were multitudes of Legendary ubers [Darkrai was both in Sinnoh AND in Almia. Cresselia was in Sinnoh, which ACTUALLY featured two Cresselias, one wild, one under Palmer's ownership. Regigigas was in sinnoh, and just like cresselia, there were two of them. Heatran, well same as Regigigas and Cresselia. Deoxys was located in the Sevii Islands as well as Fiore.] the cute legendaries had multitudes [Mew was seen more than once, in at least the Anime, and in the games, it was technically seen in 4 regions (Pokemon Island, Kanto (via the mew glitch), Fiore, and Hoenn), Celebi was seen in Johto, Fiore, and Orre, Manaphy, it's obvious enough, Shaymin was seen in Kanto (we didn't actually SEE it in Kanto, but it was implied in the event), Sinnoh, and Almia] the superancient pokemon were seen more than once [Groudon was seen in Hoenn, Fiore, and technically Orre, and Kyogre was seen in Hoenn, Fiore and technically Orre.] even the supposed "gods" were hinted at having more than one of their species [Ho-Oh was seen in Johto, Sevii islands, and Orre, Lugia was seen in Johto, Sevii Islands, and Orre, Rayquasa was seen in Fiore, Hoenn, and technically Orre, Dialga and Palkia were seen in Sinnoh and Almia, and if Nintendo REALLY wants to get whacky, they may make Arceus appear in more than one region.].)

Sorry for the wall of text, but I wanted to list all of the examples in the Games at least.

 

[Zeta]

Yeah, well, considering how Arceus was captured by a mortal, and apparantly didn't anticipate you entering his house, I'd argue that he ISN'T omnipotent NOR is he omniscient.

You don't seem to get that just because you CAN do something in a video game doesn't mean that it effects the story:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

Red COULD have captured Mewtwo in Pokemon Red, but he sure as hell didn't have him when you fought him in Pokemon Gold.

Ok, Zeta, name them, then I will try and read these stories and see if they are valid.

You don't get to decide that. You're not in charge of deciding what's valid or not. You're trying to judge fictional characters based on polytheistic religions by the standards of a rather close-minded monotheistic Christian view of what counts as a god.

And for the record: The Sandman, Jack Kirby's Fourth World, His Dark Materials, American Gods, the Long Dark Teatime of the Soul, and World of Warcraft have all had major plot points of gods captured, created, or killed by mortal men.

(BTW, just something to note, Prometheus and Loki (and possibly many other god-like characters) Do NOT count as gods. If they are comparable to anything, they are more the polytheistic versions of the Devil.).

Wow, really showing your ignorance on religion and your close-mindedness to anything but Christianity, aren't you?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HijackedByJesus

Sorry, but not every religion has direct Christian analoges. And not all Gods are omniscient or omnipotent. In fact, the concept of an all-knowing, all-powerful god was almost alien before the Judaic religion came to power. Before then, almost all gods were part of a polytheistic system where they were more or less immortal, more powerful versions of people and animals.

Ok, aside from Greek/Roman myths, in Norse Mythology, while it HAS been stated time and time again that they CAN die, it was NEVER stated that they are killed by mortals. Most of their deaths had to do with a supernatural monster or some cataclysmic event (like the Giant Wolf that's destined to eat Odin, or the Ragnarok armageddon.), for Egypt, the gods were also never stated to be killed by mortals (Most of the mentions of a god falling from power had to do with another god.).

It doesn't fucking matter. Pokemon is not a direct analogue nor supposed to be of Greek or Roman myths. :banghead: You don't seem to get that fiction is fiction. You're treating this like:

Non-Christian religions: Fact
Christian religions: Factier
Fiction: Must follow the rules of the above two sets to be valid.

You do know what fiction is, don't you? And that most mythologies and religions, especially ones not worshipped anymore can be readily reffered to as fiction as well?

For that matter, a modern ficitonal convention is that it's the people who create gods who only exist because people believe in them, and if belief ceases they die: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve

Yeah, well, since it is a very common rule in mythology that the gods control humans, and that they cannot be captured by mere mortals, among other things, I'm pretty sure that it DOES make it invalid. I don't care if it is part of the entire Pokemon series, If they were TRULY gods as they have mentioned, then they simply would not have been captured by mortals. they can get pokedex entries from other sources

And have you noticed that's exactly how it fucking works in all of the non-game appearences of said Pokemon? Trying to capture them in the manga and anime leads to worldwide disasters. The fact that you can capture them in game is simply because it would be retarded to put in Pokemon that are totally impossible to capture when the franchise's theme is COLLECTING THE FUCKING POKEMON.

(I'm pretty sure that the official guide from Nintendo Power said that you can get the other Legendary Pokemon's full pokedex data from talking to Cynthia's Grandmother after the Spear Pillar incident. and, correct me if I'm mistaken but you also get a portion of Articuno's data when you see it in the binoculars.)

You don't. You just get their picture and name.

speaking of which, I'm willing to go with the pokedex as long as the game actually backs it up (like having a legendary appearing in another region despite it's apparantly being captured by the protagonist of it's native region.), or at the very LEAST is covered in other metaseries of Pokemon (like doing exactly what it has been described of doing in the Pokedex in the Anime), but if it doesn't match either of these criteria, then I'll say that the Pokedex is unreliable.

Sure. The series' main source of information comprised in-game from all of the leading experts on Pokemon research is unreliable. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

You don't seem to get that just because you CAN do something in a video game doesn't mean that it effects the story:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

Red COULD have captured Mewtwo in Pokemon Red, but he sure as hell didn't have him when you fought him in Pokemon Gold.

So? He could just as easily have caught him in the story line. I mean, Just because his team consisted of Snorlax, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Espeon, and Pikachu doesn't mean that those are the only pokemon he has. Besides, the goal of Every Trainer is to capture as many Pokemon as the Pokedex can handle. Plus, if he didn't capture him, then explain why he isn't even IN cerulean city?

You don't get to decide that. You're not in charge of deciding what's valid or not. You're trying to judge fictional characters based on polytheistic religions by the standards of a rather close-minded monotheistic Christian view of what counts as a god.

Sigh, maybe I should tell you that even the ancient people believed this. I mean:

They believed the gods to be Omnipotent (e.g. from the Aeneid, Book 4, line 219-221: "Talibus orantem dictis arasque tenentem audiit Omnipotens, oculosque ad moenia torsit regia et oblitos famae melioria amantis." which roughly translates to "In such words he pleaded, clasping the altars; the Lord omnipotent heard, and cast his eye on the royal city and the lovers forgetful of their fairer fame.").

They made references to the gods being Omniscient (such as their apparantly knowing that someone trying to show they aren't gods is serving them human flesh [Ironically, and also hypocritically, even though they SAID they don't endorse human sacrifice, they also thought that Menelaus should sacrifice his Own daughter just to get favorable winds.], as well as the whole "No one can oppose the gods will" mantra that several of the greek/roman heroes/regular characters mentioned, and manipulating all humans [or mortals, as they usually refer to them as] to their fancy.).

They even mentioned them being immortal.

The only differences is that the gods were quite petty towards mortals (whenever they break laws, they get away with it due to their "divine status" whileas when a Pure Mortal (don't get me started on kings, or emperors) breaks a law, they summon all kinds of heck upon several people.), whileas God is quite merciful.

And for the record: The Sandman, Jack Kirby's Fourth World, His Dark Materials, American Gods, the Long Dark Teatime of the Soul, and World of Warcraft have all had major plot points of gods captured, created, or killed by mortal men.

hmm, I thought you meant mythological stories, not modern fiction. Also, if a god is created by a mortal, wouldn't that create a paradox? and actually, I am also quite ticked by that as well.

Wow, really showing your ignorance on religion and your close-mindedness to anything but Christianity, aren't you?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HijackedByJesus

Sorry, but not every religion has direct Christian analoges. And not all Gods are omniscient or omnipotent. In fact, the concept of an all-knowing, all-powerful god was almost alien before the Judaic religion came to power. Before then, almost all gods were part of a polytheistic system where they were more or less immortal, more powerful versions of people and animals.

No, actually, I KNOW what I am talking about. See, Prometheus was NOT considered to be a god EVEN IN his own religion (He was a Titan, and he had a similar fall from grace to how Satan fell from grace [i.e., he pretty much rebelled against their ruler and suffered for it. Now granted, Prometheus did it for a noble reason (He didn't want to see humanity suffer, which the Majority of the greek and roman gods seemed to delight in seeing.), whileas Lucifer was doing it out of a pure lust of Power, and also a bit of jealousy for humanity, but still.], and Loki, well, same deal with Prometheus, though his reasons were more similar to Satan's. The reason why I even compared them to Satan was because that was the best comparison I could come up with.

Plus, from my latin studies, Zeus/Jove/Jupiter was referenced as being "Omnipotent" at least once, which means that he has the highest amount of power that ANY lifeform, be it Natural or Supernatural, could have, and is pretty much unlimited. (now granted, that was contradicted by the whole Fates issue [apparantly, the fates ALSO made a very grave error, since they said that Rome was going to be "World without end", even though the roman empire actually collapsed approximately half a millenia later, so if they were actually more powerful than the gods as it was claimed, they shouldn't have made that error.], but still.), And anyways, omnipotent has pretty much the same meaning today as it did back in rome.

It doesn't fucking matter. Pokemon is not a direct analogue nor supposed to be of Greek or Roman myths. :banghead: You don't seem to get that fiction is fiction. You're treating this like:

Non-Christian religions: Fact
Christian religions: Factier
Fiction: Must follow the rules of the above two sets to be valid.

You do know what fiction is, don't you? And that most mythologies and religions, especially ones not worshipped anymore can be readily reffered to as fiction as well?

Umm... Excuse me?! I KNOW that the Greek and Roman myths are ALSO considered fiction! Heck, several people, even fellow christians, considered most of the Old Testament to be pure fiction as well! My first confirmation Teacher EVEN told me that the Book of Genesis was nothing more than an Allegory (and thus, Pure fiction based on real life events.) So DON'T Act like I don't know a thing about Fiction!

For that matter, a modern ficitonal convention is that it's the people who create gods who only exist because people believe in them, and if belief ceases they die: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve

They don't create gods, If they did, they would have been worshipping them for nothing. I mean, listen, they said a lot of things about the gods, their births, their destinies, a lot of things. Plus, Modern fictional convention is just that, conventional wisdom that shouldn't be believed.

I see that they at least didn't insert God into that limit.

Besides, my latin teacher said that the gods didn't really have any Loyal followers (and that, even if they did, they would have been a minority) and that the only reason as to why they even WORSHIP them is because of the old "Better Safe than Sorry" method. I mean, if they didn't have much loyal followers, they should be easily taken down by a mere mortal by Modern Convention's logic. but they weren't, considering their legends, which disproves that conventional wisdom.

And have you noticed that's exactly how it fucking works in all of the non-game appearences of said Pokemon? Trying to capture them in the manga and anime leads to worldwide disasters. The fact that you can capture them in game is simply because it would be retarded to put in Pokemon that are totally impossible to capture when the franchise's theme is COLLECTING THE FUCKING POKEMON.

Really? Other than the Orange Islands Bird trio (which even THEN, after they were released from Lawrence III's hands, they still didn't calm down.), exactly HOW did they negatively impact nature by being captured?

When Celebi was captured, neither Time nor the forest distorted.

When Manaphy was captured, while the water pokemon army did attack Phantom's troop, it didn't cause any natural unbalance.

Lugia didn't cause any natural unbalance when It was captured (I mean, in the Lugia Arc. While it may have been causing a storm due to it's child being missing, that isn't the same thing as oh, I don't know, when Moltres got captured.).

When Groudon and Kyogre were captured by Aqua and Magma, respectively, they didn't cause an imbalance in nature (It was only when those Orbs awoke them that they even caused any damage.)

When Raikou was captured by Atilla and Hun, thunder and lightning didn't run rampant.

When Rayquaza was captured by Team Rocket, it didn't impact nature AT ALL.

when Zapdos was, technically, captured by Jack walker in the ending credits, like Raikou, it didn't cause a natural imbalance. I think it was the same deal with it's appearance in Johto.

Heck, the three golems were captured by Brandon, and they weren't even remotely close to harming nature.

And anyways, when I see not capturing legends, I see it in the sense of like how Pirithous failed to capture Persephone.

You don't. You just get their picture and name.

Well, Nintendo must have lied then, because the guide explicitly states that you get all of it's info when you talk to the grandma.

Sure. The series' main source of information comprised in-game from all of the leading experts on Pokemon research is unreliable. Makes perfect sense.

If you were being sarcastic with that post, I will cite examples of how they should be considered unreliable.

Regice was said to be indestructable even to magma, yet it still retains it's weakness to Fire-types in battle (Honestly, if it was truly as indestructable as it was claimed to be, none of the Fire type attacks would have worked on it AT ALL).

Vulpix was stated to be born with one tail and a pale complexion, yet when you breed them in the games, it comes up with the same looks (AND number of tails) as an adult vulpix (This was ALSO covered in the Anime as well.).

See what I mean? Anyways, that's all for now.

 

[Adamant]

Wow, really showing your ignorance on religion and your close-mindedness to anything but Christianity, aren't you?

It's true that Loki isn't really considered a god, though.

 

[Habunake]

Weedle, you're forgetting the fact that if they adhered to everything in the Pokedex the game would be...

...you know what, why don't we just ban Weedle for being a fucking idiot? Surely that is bannable.

 

[Adamant]

But he's funny from a distance.

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

Just because people belive a god to have whatever powers doesn't mean said god actually *has* them.

 

[Zeta]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CapturedSuperEntity

Gods are captured all the time in fiction.

 

[DanPMK]

There's only 2 things to do:

1) The most logical: Suspend your disbelief. Nintendo doesn't plan these things out well.

2) Most logical from an in-universe standpoint: None of the creation rumors were ever actually substanciated. They're rumors in the games themselves, old stories told via oral tradition that differ from region to region. Any extremely powerful Pokemon seen centuries ago will be seen as a god by the people that saw it.

or 3, continue to make useless, convoluted explainations in an attempt to prove that 1 = 2.