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Mafia Holiday Mafia 2016 - Endgame: Krampusnacht (Mafia and Indep Victory) 7/1/17

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HumanDawn said:
This might have been for the best. There's still stuff I don't know about and another night to get information would be really needed.

Also, I just love how misused the term OMGUS is.

I need this time to go over the thread.
Click to expand...

Still looking over, probably going to take a break for the night after this, I just hit page 15/22 right now. I'm assuming you're referring to my comment about you "basically OMGus'ing" my joke vote. By definition, an OMGus vote is a vote for the person who voted for you with little reasoning, and honestly your vote came across that way. The reasoning was more than many other day one votes (hence the basically, rather than me just calling it an OMGus), but ultimately it boiled down to the fact that I hadn't made an effort to start things, which applies to most players.

Elementar said:
@DrumBeats, you slightly misinterpreted one of my earlier posts. You said in your reread that I said somebody else could vote to get an unwanted lynch. I was just saying that I wasn't confident in any other the BWs, so my vote had no reasoning and I didn't feel comfortable in making one. I knew that tying up the votes would have become redundant after more votes, seen later on in the game.
Click to expand...
I think I used the words you used at the time there, but mentally noted. It doesn't change my feelings about how you came off in that phase, but noted nonetheless.

------

The reread so far is really telling. I definitely have a few definite suspects from it (though I'm sure you all know one of them haha). I'll be on to talk a bit for around half hour, but after that I'm heading to bed.
 
Slife subs in for Doctor Floptopus
  • Index
  • Index
    • Finished the reread, and I'm formatting my individual read's / notes / questions. I'll try to post them later in the night.
     
    Starting with my town reads, then my null/mixed reads, and lastly my scum reads. I'm not sure if Bulba has a character limit to posts, so it might have to be split into more than three here. Under each of the reads, there are a few questions for each of you, so please answer those!

    First player is @jdthebud

    + Asked some solid questions of other players, which seemed to be pushing for good and unique info.
    + Came up with a theory that Alex Kaz's inventions caused Human's vote loss. Since this is likely a scum role causing it since nobody has come forward, making incorrect theories about a townie doing it reads as a townie trying to figure out the situation. Mafia likely know what is causing this, and I don't think they would spend time theorizing about it.

    - Has not acted upon the information he has pushed for.
    - Has had spotty periods of inactivity
    - Claimed to maybe get info from his role, but said info was apparently useless

    Conclusion: Leaning Town

    Unlikely ScumPartners: Max1996

    Jdthebud:

    D1 - Joke vote on DB

    D1 - Unvote DB, vocalizes lack of targets. [On day one this seems pointless. Just an excuse for inaction imo]

    D2 - Votes Max1996 for being sure of scum being on the Dylan (Town) wagon. Asks him if he thinks that DrumBeats is scum. [Good look and reasonable opinion imo]

    D2 - Unvotes Max, and votes Elementar, citing the fact that his said Kaz (Town) looked good after just one post. [Very good point that I missed the first time around. It feels like Elementar fabricated a town read on Kaz, just to have one. Good look for jd, bad look for Elementar]

    D2 - Unvotes Elementar w/ no reasoning and asks Dylan (Town) for an opinion [Odd. Why the lack of reasoning?]

    D2 - Reasoning for Elementar unvote was because he liked what he said [Very generic reasoning. Meh]

    N2 - Claimed he might get info tonight [Neat, but nothing ever came from it so idk. It’s a bit off to me, but we’ll see.]

    N2 - Finds Max more suspicious than DB

    D3 - Theorizes that an invented item from Kaz caused the vote loss, Vote for Max [This could look good for jd, if there continues to be a missing vote every day. Having a wrong theory about something like this strikes me more as a townie trying to figure it out, especially since I’m leaning towards the vote negator being scum at this point since Human was targetted with it.]

    D3 - Suspects that Human is trying to set up a double mislynch with the “either Jd or Max” statement. [Reasonable thought, feels genuine.]

    D3 - Pushes FA for more suspects, claims to townread all players on his BW except WolfOwl. Votes for Wolf Owl. Now trusts HD due to the cop check. Claims Wolf Owl is a safe lynch due to “indy” status [This all seems good to me. Suspecting WolfOwl rather than taking her being indy as a fact is nice imo. Pushing for the safe lynch also is a solid idea imo]

    D3 - Claimed his info to be useless right now, asks DB about Darth + Cheff, as well as who he/Cheff’s scumpartners would be. [Info part is a bit skeptical, it gives me the impression that there might not be any info at all. The questioning on me though seems to be trying to get good information.]

    D3 - Says that people have been making very general cases on him, that he could see a backup cop/doc being a thing due to his own role, and that he’s not sure what to defend against. [All of this feels reasonable except the fact that his role makes a backup cop/doc believable. I just don’t see how that could be.]

    D3 - Votes DB to tie the votes [Makes sense to preserve yourself, both as town and mafia].

    D3 - Asks who is scum if DB is town [Good question].

    Questions for Jd:

    1. Who are your top suspects currently? You've done a lot of voting to keep yourself safe (as have I) but I'm not sure where you stand.

    2. Any info from your role?

    -------

    Next up is @Pikochu

    +++ Positive cop check.

    ~ Initially inactive.
    ~ Doesn't seem fully caught up.

    Conclusion: Very Likely Town

    D3 - Subs in and scans the thread. Uneasy about Human, asks for answers from him, and misunderstands Human’s cop check post. [Good look, given Pikochu was also cleared by the cop check. I like how Pikochu calls into question the cop check when he misunderstood it, even though it’s result benefitted himself.]

    D3 - Questions DrumBeat’s reasoning for D1 vote, hypothetical PP scenario, and openly stating he’d likely be roleblocked. Asked WolfOwl for a tl;dr of her case on DB. [Mostly reasonable stuff. The D1 vote stuff is a bit off imo, since it was a day one vote and that was much more reasoning than anybody else’s day one vote. But I’m a bit biased there.]

    D3 - Asks for cop CCs. [The fact that this is repeated from Human’s makes me think Pikochu isn’t fully caught up with the thread, which is fine. Just something I noted from it.

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects right now?

    Good luck catching up on the thread, thanks for subbing in!

    -------

    Next is @DarthWolf13

    + Very willing to give opinions, despite being new. Some of the reasoning on these opinions weren't great, but putting them out there is commendable.
    ++ Knew nameclaiming was prohibited before it was added to the main rule list. This is almost a derpclear in my opinion, because why would a mafia member, especially a new one, ask that? Only reason for a mafia member to ask it is preemptively trying to stop it, but Darth wouldn't know of those dangers. It makes sense that Darth would likely ask as a new player if he was allowed to claim the name of his role, which he would not want to do as mafia.

    ~ Said something about knowing the doctor that was weird.

    - In his reads list, he had a lot of null reads, and some of them were on very controversial players where he should've had some type of opinion.

    Conclusion: Likely Town

    Unlikely ScumPartners: WolfOwl

    D1 - Joke Vote on Soaring Dylan (Town - Second Vote)

    D1 - Joke Newbie fight with Cheff

    D2 - Votes Cheff for bandwagoning Wolf, thinking he’s either a sheep or a scumpartner [Not good reasoning but that’s expected of a new player. The fact that he’s willing to give it though makes me lean good on it, but mostly null read here]

    N2 - Defends that Vote on Dylan was a joke.

    D3 - Gave a list of reads, Town reads Human/Max, believes Wolf is indy, suspects Cheff, null read on most everyone else. [Seems genuine enough, though there were a lot of null reads on people who are controversial, such as myself. Though I think some of this can be attributed to being new.]

    D3 - Believes Cheff’s strategy is true and unvotes him. [I find it odd, but it seems to stem from a personal relationship between the two so Idk.]

    D3 - Knew nameclaiming was prohibited, though it wasn’t in the rules. [This actually is a huge derpclear in my opinion. As a new player, I doubt Darth would preemtively ask this as mafia to combat it as a town strategy. However, I could see a town Darth asking if he could claim it. This makes Darth look really good in my eyes.]

    D3 - Suspects Cheff less now, thinks he looks better right now while he’s making newbie mistakes [I find this a little odd. It almost seems like it could be distancing from the Cheff suspicion pre-modkill.]

    D3 - Sheep’s Human’s vote on DrumBeats [It makes sense for a newbie to follow a cop-checked player’s vote, especially given his disagreement with the altenative wagon. Doesn’t look bad imo].

    D3 - Points out to DB that the amount of characters that could fit into the backup santa role makes it have a high potential to be a fakeclaim [Very good point and very good reasoning. Great look for Darth.]

    D3 - Asks WolfOwl when the case on DB is coming.

    D3 - Asks about likelihood of backup cop and backup doctor in the same game.

    D3 - Knows there is a doctor, trusts said doctor. [Very interesting that Darth is likely in contact with the doctor, don’t know how to feel about that].

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. What was up with that doctor thing you mentioned? You said you know there is a doctor, and you trust them?

    Thanks for being active as a new player, if you have any questions for me about why I think some of the reasoning is bad, I'd be happy to answer them.

    -------

    Next @FinalArcadia

    + Great questioning
    + Provides equal leniency to all three new players

    - Less of a reason for her to be alive as a PP on Day 3 than any of the other three of us.
    - Never deviates off of the case on Jd.

    Conclusion: Leaning Town

    Likely ScumPartners: Elementar (Explained in the Elementar read)

    D1 - Joke votes Doctor Flop

    D1 - Questions Elementar for not voting to help DrumBeats, Questions DrumBeats for not suspecting Human [Good questioning to get some day one info]

    D1 - Votes for SoaringDylan (Town - Third vote)

    N1 - Brings up that Dylan (Town) never claimed to suspect DrumBeats and DrumBeats’s profile said he was not online at the time.

    D2 - Vote on Elementar for his indecisiveness on D1, asks Max if he thinks DrumBeats was scum being saved, and asks Darth if his suspicion of Cheff means he town reads Elementar. [Pushing for good information, though his question to Max seems a bit leading to a “DB is scum” conclusion.]

    D2 - Questions why Cheff voted for Wolf, the more active player, over Darth, Unvotes Elementar for better behavior, Sees no case on DB, Thinks Max’s scumminess may be due to being new, believes Wolf’s claim. [All of this is good reasoning. Looks good to me]

    D2 - Votes Jdthebud, for giving the illusion of scumhunting without doing so. [Solid vote with original reasoning. Good look]

    D3 - Finds Jd more scummy than Max. Votes Jd. Calls out Max for his OMGus votes, and voting off of the group who he claimed there was definitely scum in. Pushes Darth for more discussion and Cheff for reasoning behind the Darth suspicion. [All very solid reasoning and pushes. Universally lenient for the newbies, but the fact that none seem to be treated preferentially makes it feel fine.]

    D3 - Finds Cheff/Darth combo to be weird, suspects Darth more than Cheff. Thinks there could be scum in the inactives. [Reasonable opinion, though I’d personally have thought scum was Cheff back then, though he’s been proven town now.]

    D3 - Believes that all of the PP’s are town (Indy in WolfOwl’s case). Believes JD is scum, and DB and Max cannot be scum together. Felt Pikochu was reaching for reasoning on DB. [All of this is rational, though I’m not entirely thrilled that FA has yet to deviate off of the case on Jd.]

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why so set on Jd?

    -------

    Lastly @HumanDawn

    +++ Positive Cop Check on him
    + Very Active
    + Very Fluid opinions on players and the switches in perspective feel genuine
    + Focussed on getting information for the town.

    ~ Recklessly outed my claim.
    ~ Aggressively requesting claims - fits with the town leader persona he is trying to adopt.

    - How sure he is of his day one vote on me is off imo, but I am biased there.
    - A lot of null reads in his first reads list

    Conlcusion: Very Likely Town

    Unlikely ScumPartners: Hellcrow, WolfOwl

    D1 - Joke vote on CheffofGames (Town)

    D1 - Joke vote on Ghostly (Town - Second vote)

    D1 - Criticizes joke votes of FinalArcadia + DrumBeats, and criticizes lack of vote from Flop and Soaring Dylan (Town) [I find this odd, considering Human had also joke voted not once but twice]

    D1 - Vote on DrumBeats for voting him. [I find this odd as well, as he’s basically OMGusing a joke vote. He expected more from my first post, yet he was actively posting and had already made two joke votes. Though props to him for starting discussion on actual lynches]

    D1 - Pushes for activity [This looks good imo]

    N1 - Criticizes Kaz’s (Town) saying Dylan’s (Town) vote had nonexistant reasoning. Claimed Kaz’s vote had nonexistant reasoning. Criticize’s FinalArcadia’s vote on Dylan (Town) as well, claiming that there was no reason for Dylan (Town) to be lynched over DrumBeats. [I don’t like how sure he is that I am scum based on non-existent reasoning. As you guys will see soon, I am not, yet he is positive that I am and ridiculed all those who did not believe it.]

    D2 - Votes Hellcrow for inactivity, Tells Max that pointing fingers would help his case, still slightly suspicious of DrumBeats. [Looks genuine, pushing for activity and trying to get some info out of Max.]

    D2 - Doesn’t answer Hellcrow’s question about what WolfOwl could be seeing [Sticking to his guns from earlier. Very stubborn townie or scum trying to take out a PP]

    D2 - Human claims to not scumread Elementar, gut scumreads JD, claims that DrumBeats is avoiding him, Null reads Max and FA, believes Mido’s claim, pretty much null on rest. [Good to provide a list of reads, bad that most were null. Also the claim that I avoided him was false, which he admitted he was wrong about later.]

    D2 - Votes DrumBeats for the pressure vote on Max, dramatizing his disagreement with how it was done. [Really struggle to see the logic here, but I’m very biased here so I can’t fully judge it. Only thing I can say is that this “Lynch DrumBeats” mentality has been present since the beginning for small reasoning. Almost reeks on lyncher, but the cop check rules this out.]

    D2 - Continues pushing DB based on difference in pressure vote idealogy and missing DB’s response to FA. [Again, my only criticism is that he seems obsessed, considering most of his reasoning here was due to missing a post]

    D2 - Notices that Max hasn’t answered DB’s questions. Unvotes DB, and votes Max. [Better look, but again bias is present. I do find it weird that Human didn’t realize this was happening in the moment, but considering there was an echo chamber that it wasn’t from Wolf + Max, it is a bit understandable if one isn’t actively looking for it.]

    D2 - Admits that he missed DB’s response

    D2 - Agrees with FA’s assessment of Jd, tries to clear up the Max case to Wolf [Both of these look good]

    N2 - Thinks Max is more suspicious than Jd for ignoring those who were voting him D2. Voted for JD in order to break the tie. [All makes sense. Solid reasoning]

    D3 - Votes Max, claiming it’s either him or jd.

    D3 - Doubts a Drum/Jd or Drum/Max scumpair [Solid logic here, though he’s overestimating how much Jd and I have been at each other’s throats imo]

    D3 - Got a cop claim, asks for CCs.

    D3 - Wonders how Cheff even heard of the cop role being new [Feels genuine, but in many of the guides I feel like they discuss the cop/doctor role so it’s not too odd for a newbie to know that.]

    D3 - Says that Max has a convincing claim that he doesn’t trust, but he’s okay with leaving it around a bit. Leans voting Cheff. [Fair enough, though the fact that the claim isn’t a huge one makes me wonder why he dropped the suspicion for it. As somebody without the information though, I can’t really say, but its a bit curious. Probably nothing though.]

    D3 - Outs DrumBeat’s 1x Backup Cop claim - pushes for a lynch on it. Also wants to test Cheff’s claim the same night. [Reckless move, but honestly not scummy imo. Wanting to test Cheff’s claim is a good look.]

    D3 - Proposes we tie the votes and have Cheff hammer to test his claim. [Not at all how the claim should have been tested because any role other than voteless would have caused the tie to break. However, there can’t have been malice behind this since Cheff flipped town. If Cheff flipped scum, I would have suspected that this was intentionally trying to prove his claim, while causing a mislynch.]

    D3 - Claims that FA would be the PP to lynch if DB is town, if we assume a PP is scum. [Reasonable assumption, as FA had the least reason to be kept alive.]

    D3 - Unvotes DB, with no reasoning provided. [I think the reasoning was to get the empty vote off since it could throw us off on the vote split for testing Cheff. If I’m right about the reasoning, it looks good.]

    D3 - Asks DB if he thinks there could be no scum PPs and if FA could be distancing from Jd [Both reasonable questions. The first gives me the paranoid town leader vibe, while the second is just pushing for info.]

    D3 - Brings up that DB’s lynch would be helpful for information even if he flipped town. [I loved this post at the time, and I love it now. I’d like more specifics there, but I do understand the idea of holding that back since we know that he has to have shared that info with the cop/Pikochu as well so it would not die with Human should he be killed.]

    D3 - Wonders if there is a reason why Hellcrow and Flop haven’t been subbed out. [Very valid question, especially given that we know Hellcrow has been communicating privately with Wolf Owl]

    D3 - Has no issue with WolfOwl’s approach to D3.

    D3 - Relates distrust of backup cop claims to a past game in which a godfather doing that lost the town the game [Fair enough. I try to be more creative with fakeclaims, but it makes sense].

    D3 - Suggests a Hellcrow lynch, believes Jd’s claim [Consistent w/ Human’s behavior about HC the whole game.]

    D3 - Asks to be privately shared HellCrow’s role, suggets everyone should claim to him. [Makes sense, though massclaims don’t always work out. Good look, but I hope he’s more careful with how he handles this town leader setup he’s pushing, as he was already a bit reckless with it earlier.]

    D3 - Votes DB just in case he could gain his vote back. [Might as well I guess, I see no reason to do so or not to].

    D3 - Refuses to tell who is scum if DB is town. [Fair, because he is in private communication with an obvious town (the cop) so this makes sure the answer won’t affect the scum’s kills and it won’t die if Human does.]

    D3 - Pushes for Hellcrow’s claim, then questions why he would claim to a claimed independent. [Reasonable for Human’s aggressive town lead approach to this, Questioning Hellcrow’s choice of claim is very solid, as it really makes no sense.]

    D3 - Spat with DB over his anger about sharing his claim. [Anger feels genuine, though we disagree on how pissed off I should have been by it.]

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Make a case as to why everyone should claim to you.

    3. Why were you so certain of your day one vote?

    Thanks for being so active. Sorry about our disagreements yesterday as well, I was very pissed when my claim was outed and definitely pushed that a bit too far out of emotion.

    -------

    Huh, turn's out Bulba doesn't have a character limit here. Human's notes ended up being two pages on google docs, so if that doesn't break the character limit nothing will. Next two are inbound.
     
    Now for the Null/Mixed Reads:

    First @WolfOwl

    + Very Active
    + Genuinely tries to figure out the missing votes.
    + Solid Reasoning behind many of the day three votes, especially looking back.
    + Some solid pushes for information.

    ~ Relationship with Hellcrow makes me potentially believe she's an independent for real who is being contacted into siding with the mafia.
    ~ Reckless with potentially finding out the cop (when she believed Darth was the cop due to the unexplained vote on Cheff, and then pointed out that reasoning in the thread, which would've outed Darth if it was true). Makes sense for an independent to not really care if they do though.

    - Diehard defender of Max because he is new, but still pushes Cheff and Darth, who are also new. Calls out Cheff's OMGus vote, but did not call out any of Max's (I believe there were three).
    - Very defensive about independent claim.
    - Survivor claim with an additional passive role sounds fake. The context of the first independent claim is also suspect because it was right after Elementar said he was going to make a case on her.


    Conclusion: Mixed - Hinges upon Max's alignment imo.

    Likely ScumPartners: Max, Hellcrow
    Unlikely ScumPartners: Darth, Human, Elementar

    Basically, if Max is scum, I almost guarantee that Wolf is as well. The buddying is strong with them.

    D1 - Sheeps Human’s DrumBeats vote (Second Vote) [WolfOwl is a player I expect more from, so the sheeping doesn’t sit well with me. Given the independent claim though, it would make sense that Wolf wouldn’t really care if we lynched mafia or not with it]

    N1 - Tells Max not to jump to the conclusion that there had to be mafia on the mislynch. FoS’es Elementar for avoiding the lynch options. States that those who voted for SoaringDylan (Town) had good reasoning. [This looks very good to me. Both opinions seem genuine and match what I noted on my reread.]

    D2 - Votes Elementar for avoiding bandwagons and for discouraging the idea that there was scum on either DrumBeats or Dylan’s (Town) wagons. [The reasoning of avoiding bandwagons is solid, but Elementar never discouraged the idea that there was scum on either wagon. He said he did not believe there had to be scum on the Dylan (Town) wagon. Looks like fabricated reasoning imo due to the twisting of Elementar’s words.]

    D2 - Calls out DarthWolf for poor reasoning on Cheff vote, tells Max to look at their posts to see if anything sticks out [Doesn’t look too bad, though I find it weird that Wolf did not also call out Max’s poor reasoning for the OMGus vote on jdthebud. I could see a WolfOwl and Max scumpair]

    D2 - Claimed independent in response to Elementar saying he’d build a case on WolfOwl. [Very odd. I didn’t like the claim earlier, but the context behind it is very troubling. WolfOwl used the indy claim to dissuade someond from looking deeper into her posts. Strongly dislike this, but I can only see one of Elementar and Wolf as mafia.]

    D2 - Votes for Cheff with Darth [Also odd, though I see the reasoning behind it. Assuming that Darth’s simplistic reasoning could be a cop check. Fair reasoning but odd when considering Wolf’s earlier criticism of said vote. Cheff also points out that Darth’s suspicion was contigent on Cheff/WolfOwl scumteam. This makes the vote could have also been used to try to pull the “Cheff is town, so there’s no reason to suspect me.”]

    D2 - Claims Survivor

    D2 - Defends Cheff vote by explaining the cop reasoning [A bit reckless with outing a potential cop. I can see an independent being apathetic about that though, as well as a mafioso]

    D2 - Calls DrumBeats out for being obsessed with Max [More Max/Wolf buddying that points to a potential scum/scum relationship. Wolf claims that Max “never refused anything”, though Max not answering something is refusal. Wolf also claims that Max’s reads were still forming, yet there were no reads given, just that one of four people who voted for Dylan was scum. I still find it so weird how Wolf criticizes Darth/Cheff, but not Max]

    D2 - Calls out Cheff for an OMGus vote on herself. [WHAT WHY CALL THIS OUT AND NOT MAX’S TWO OMGUS VOTES? For real though, this is so shady.]

    D2 - Votes for DB, claiming that Max already answered the questions [Spoiler: He didn’t. I don’t understand the connection between Wolf and Max, but Wolf is letting Max slide for things she would not let Cheff or Darth slide for.]

    D2 - Ignores that Max didn’t answer the questions, but says she and Human are viewing the situation differently. Says Cheff and DB grew suspicious of her around the same time she voted Cheff - suspects buddying [I don’t like this either. Clearly refusing to look at the other side of the coin about Max, but then suggests Cheff and I buddying for suspecting her when she voted Cheff. This would be a reasonable idea, had that not also been the same time she claimed survivor. Ignoring that crucial detail caused her to jump to a quick conclusion. Also talk of buddying from her is a bit laughable now in hindsight.]

    N2 - Pointed out that an action had to have made one of DB and Human voteless because the votes counted day one.

    N2 - Asks Human/DB if they received any notification that could lead to it [Looks decent, genuinely seems to be trying to figure it out]

    N2 - Asks Alex Kaz for other opinions. [Good push for info, though nothing specific makes it a bit meh]

    D3 - Claims to want to build a case on DB [Alright, but seems to just be trying to push that I am suspicious without actually building a case. The fact that the case never comes confirms this, though due to what Wolf says is preventing this irl, it could be a genuine rl conflict.]

    D3 - Highly suspects Cheff due to his new claim and the behavior. Votes for him, and puts off case on DB, saying she didn’t have time right now to make it and that Cheff’s alignment impacts it. [Very reasonable, due to Cheff’s suspicious behavior and her reasoning for suspecting me was because she believed Cheff and I were buddying. In hindsight, her dropping the case on me makes more sense as well, because after Cheff flipped town a major part of her case was gone. Previously I forgot about the Cheff/I buddying part of the suspicion and only remembered the part that originated due to the Max push, so this makes more sense in hindsight.]

    D3 - Claims to not want to let Cheff’s contradictions pass as a newbie thing - brings up that she allowed Max’s lack of scumhunting to slide as a newbie thing. [The statement is fine in context, but looking back to before Cheff was contradicting himself, WolfOwl still provided him and Darth much less leniency than Max, which I find odd.]

    D3 - Brings up Santa Claise option for DrumBeats’s role [Makes sense as an exploring all the options type of thing. I was annoyed by this at the time, but it looks fair looking back, especially when WolfOwl later cleared up some of the unclear context around it.]

    D3 - Votes Jd for not defending himself. [Again more reasonable in hindsight than I had thought at the time. Some of my reads during that time were probably off because my emotions were high.]

    D3 - Believes that it is likely that there is not a scum PP. [Reasonable view. Good look imo, because Wolf could push that there has to be one to make a push on any of us].

    D3 - Says that Jd is being ostracized, so if he is mafia he is likely being bussed [Fair point though it didn’t answer the question that it responded to. However my question was less valid looking back].

    D3 - Find’s DB’s role plausible, appreciates his activity over Jd’s, claims that people keep telling them that DB looks town. [Provides logical reasoning for the Jd vote over the DB vote. The second part though makes me believe she is in private communication with people, as this has not been a common sentiment in the thread, even in the reread with emotions out of it.]

    D3 - Asks DB what her independent claim had to do with him. [Really defensive post imo. Getting pissed at someone for doubting your independent claim sounds like you’re trying to hide behind it. Makes me think its a fake claim].

    D3 - Claims to have stopped pushing DB the moment she said she needed to get on pc to make a case against him, brings up that DB pushed Max nonstop on D2, asserts that DB hasn’t been reading the thread, Claims that most the thread has townread DB until recently. Yells at Darth for asking about when the case will come. [Very mixed feelings about this post. Parts of it are outright false, but the angry emotion behind it feels genuine and makes some of the false parts make some sense to say. The first statement is mostly true, though repeating that she was going to make the case is still a form of pushing, but I get it. Second statement is true, but again I wonder why WolfOwl is obsessed with that push on Max. Third is false, but entirely driven by being pissed at me, which I get, especially since I had at least forgotten about the Cheff/I buddying part of her suspicion. The statement that most the thread was townreading me though is not true in reread, though maybe it felt that way to her? The interaction with Darth makes me find it very unlikely that the two are a scumpair.]

    D3 - Clarifies the Santa Claise/Santa Clause situation [Makes more sense, still feels very weird how we were expected to make those jumps but its pretty inconsequential anyway so oh well.]

    D3 - Has Hellcrow’s claim, says it checks out. [This is odd to me. Why would Hellcrow claim to an independent unless he was mafia working to flip them? Very odd.]

    D3 - Refuses to share Hellcrow’s claim, does not think FA not claiming is scummy. [Reasonable opinions.]

    D3 - Positive there wouldn’t be a counterclaim to Hellcrow. Refuses to share claim with Human, because she doesn’t want this game to turn into follow the leader. [Reasonable sentiment. Thought I don’t see how she could be certain there wouldn’t be a counterclaim to HellCrow’s role. Maybe the role is a scum role, hence why nobody would want to claim it? Idk.]

    D3 - Claims to be a survivor with a passive role that makes Hellcrow’s role make sense. [No idea what type of passive role could make an inactive player’s roleclaim seem uncounterclaimable. Also I find it very weird that said survivor role has a passive role, as they usually don’t. It seems like an easy way to justify her real passive role being there if it was found out.]

    D3 - Thinks DB is a bad lynch [Reasoning backs up, despite the turnaround from “I”m going to build a case on you”]

    D3 - Unvotes Jd and votes Elementar for being quiet [Fair enough.]

    D3 - Unvotes Elementar and votes JD again, tying the votes. [Reasonable imo]

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why claim independent right as Elementar says he is going to look over you? Why not sooner or later?

    3. Why is Max given a free pass for being new, but not Cheff or Darth?

    4. How does your passive independent role confirm Hellcrow's role in your eyes? I just don't see how that could happen tbh.

    Sorry for the high tensions between us yesterday though, I know we both were pretty pissed there, so sorry for misunderstanding a little bit of it in the moment! Thanks for the activity!

    -------

    And the other one is @Slife (Has been Doctor Floptopus until now though, just didn't want to mention Flop after the sub out)

    ~ Inactive

    - Didn't bother placing a joke vote D1 due to all the new players being voted for.

    Conclusion: Null

    Not enough to even go off of here.

    D1 - No joke vote because other people already voted the new players.

    Questions:

    1. Who are your top suspects right now that you subbed in Slife?

    Btw thanks for subbing in!
     
    Now for the scumreads.

    First is @Hellcrow

    + Claim apparently checks out according to WolfOwl

    ~ Inactive

    - Privately active despite being inactive in thread.
    - Claimed to a claimed independent, which could be an attempt to flip Wolf to scumside.
    - Finally posts in the thread again just to tell Human no to sharing his claim with him. Seems to be actively lurking, which makes little sense for a townie to do.

    Conclusion: Likely Scum

    Likely ScumPartners: WolfOwl
    Unlikely ScumPartners: HumanDawn

    D2 - Finally speaks and asks Wolf, Human, and Elementar about the Dylan (Town) vote reasoning [Minimal contribution, but seems to be trying to get the town to see each other’s side. Decent look, but the inactivity is suspect.]

    Before D3 - Claimed to WolfOwl, the claimed independent [Odd. I could see this being to try to convince Wolf to side with the scum.]

    D3 - Refuses to share claim with Human [Reasonable to not share claim with Human, very odd that he was willing to share with WolfOwl, even more odd that he posts in the thread right when Human mentions it, yet cannot offer anything to help scumhunting. Looks very bad].

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why claim to the independent of all people? Why even claim at all?

    3. How did you see Human's post about you, yet have nothing to offer toward the thread the entire game?

    -------

    Next is @Max1996

    + Some of the hesitancy could be attributed to being new.
    + D3 reaction to Cheff seemed genuine.

    - Claimed that one of the votes on Dylan was definitely scum, but refused to look deeper than that, despite repeated questions.
    - In general ignored or responded with an "I don't know" to almost every question asked of him.
    - Despite ignoring questions from other users, he always questions those who suspect him.
    - Several OMGus votes, he voted almost everybody who suspected him and exclusively them on Day 2.
    - A very buddy-buddy relationship with Wolf Owl, who undyingly defends every one of his moves because he is new, while pushing the other two new players.

    Conclusion: Likely Scum

    Likely ScumPartners: WolfOwl.
    Unlikely ScumPartners: Jdthebud

    D1 - Joke vote on Dylan (Town)

    N1 - Says that there is definitely scum among the SoaringDylan votes other than himself. (DarthWolf13, DrumBeats, Alex Kaz, FinalArcadia) [Blaming everyone else on the lynch wagon for it isn’t a good look, though the fact that his vote was a joke vote makes it fair. I don’t like that he uses the word “definitely” given the fact that he refuses to dig further later]

    D2 - Says he is not certain if DB is mafia - needs more info. [Refusing to answer a question due to lack of certainty. Does not even give an opinion of what might be there, just refuses to answer. Bad look]

    D2 - Claims that scum would try to get the town lynched, which is why he thinks someone from the vote on Dylan (Town) is mafia. [Reasonable newbie opinion, though misguided because the bandwagon was small, and the alignment of the second choice was unknown]

    D2 - Claims that the fact that a joke vote turned into a bandwagon makes those on it likely to be scum. [Sounds more like bad reasoning than anything malicious imo.]

    D2 - OMGus votes Jdthebud [Looks bad because Max is sure one on the Dylan bandwagon is scum, why vote off of it then?]

    D2 - “I don’t know” about where to point fingers in the Dylan (Town) wagon [Again avoiding any direct suspicions. Won’t even give a most likely]

    D2 - Says DB could be scum - if so one of Darth, Kaz (Town), or FinalArcadia are likely scum too. [First solid opinion he’s given in a while. It’s not a bad one.]

    D2 - Never answers DrumBeats’s questions about who is the most likely scum of those he pointed at, but asks DrumBeats why he should not be left alone. [Very scummy. He cares about taking attention off of himself, but not about providing information for the town.]

    D2 - Continues to avoid the questions asked about his opinions of Elementar, in addition to the original ones. Instead asks DrumBeats why he’s obsessed with him. [PING PING SCUM RADAR ON FIRE]

    D2 - Votes for DrumBeats, who is pushing on him. [Ironically enough, the vote was “Until he explains himself” from the person who has refused to explain himself. I don’t like that this is two votes in one day only for people who have voted for him.]

    D2 - Claims he never said DB was scum. [True, though it was the closest thing to a read that he provided by saying he could be scum. Also a very odd thing to say about the person who you are voting at the time.]

    N2 - Discusses the missing vote

    N2 - Doesn’t know who to vote and doesn’t want to sheep [A fair opinion for a new player. However, it was said in response to Human wondering why he disengaged himself from the people voting him, which doesn’t answer the question.]

    D3 - Asks Human why he wants him out over Jd/DB. [I again don’t like this because Human has already explained this. Max just keeps avoiding answering anything to alleviate the suspicion].

    D3 - Votes HumanDawn for being vague, when Human specified why, Max claimed to not know how to answer the questions. [Coming from the most vague player in the game this vote bothers me. It’s also yet another OMGus vote, which is very suspicious to me.]

    D3 - Unvotes Human after the cop check is revealed. [Makes sense for all alignments to do this].

    D3 - Votes DrumBeats for his day one vote on Soaring Dylan, finding the reasoning poor and giving WolfOwl a free pass for sheeping. [Feels like reaching for an excuse to vote for me, but I’m biased. A lot has happened since D1, but that just seemed like an excuse to OMGus vote to me.]

    D3 - Unvotes DrumBeats and Votes for Cheff [Reasonable suspicion and notably Max’s first vote since D1 that is not on somebody who voted for him. I like it.]

    D3 - Pulls up the votes that Cheff’s vote counted. [Good look here, plus odd that Cheff’s votes did count looking back. Why? I guess we’ll find out about this postgame.]

    D3 - Questions DB’s guess that there is a roleblocker [Reasonable for a new player].

    D3 - Asks an online Flop for thoughts. [Good to ask others to contribute more, but coming from somebody who hasn’t given much of his own thoughts, I feel like its a way to keep posting without providing his own content.]

    Questions for Max:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why do you think WolfOwl was lenient on you for being a new player, but not Cheff or Darth?

    Also despite me being very against you in this game, thank you for being very active as a new player. I hope you're having fun, and I'm sorry if my push has discouraged you from the game in any way!

    -------

    Lastly we have @Elementar

    + Some solid pushes for information from DB, Max, Wolf, and Cheff.
    + Believed my case on himself was stronger than my case on Max. I feel like scum would be more likely to just roll with that.

    - D1 avoided taking action in DB vs. SD. It feels like this was to avoid suspicion of the lynch when it occurred.
    - Threatened the town with a destructive ability.
    - Townread Alex Kaz just after Kaz townread him. It felt like he was townreading Kaz for townreading him, rather than for Kaz's own actions.
    - Some hypocritical reasoning - specifically voting me for believing I was trying to avoid a mislynch, and sheeping onto the Cheff wagon because he believes Cheff is sheeping.

    Conclusion: Leaning Scum

    Likely ScumPartners: FinalArcadia (Elementar was quick to jump to FA's defense when I mentioned that FA was the only PP that doesn't have a reason to be alive right now.)

    D1 - Disagrees with lynch on DrumBeats and townreads HumanDawn and Kaz (Town). [In hindsight the town read on Kaz looks forced, as Jd pointed out he only posted once. Bad look]

    N1 - Says that he did not want to tie the vote and let somebody else break the tie in an unwanted way [This reads to me as he didn’t want to be blamed for a mislynch. Bad look imo, later clarified by Elementar that he wasn't confident in any other bandwagon, and figured tying it would be redundant anyway. That reasoning just feels like justifying it imo, it still comes across as avoiding a mislynch.]

    D2 - Tells Max that scum often avoid mislynch wagons. [Good look, letting a newbie know what typically happens]

    D2 - Tells Max that there was reasoning behind the Dylan (Town) votes, asks who he would have voted. [I like the push for information from him.]

    D2 - Calls WolfOwl out for twisting his words, defends inaction on D1 to be that he’d rather have a lynch than no lynch, defended that Kaz’s first post (Post #77) looked really good, which led to the town read. [Kaz’s first post was pretty decent, so I can see where Elementar might have come from here. It looks a little bit better now imo]

    D2 - Threatens the town with a destructive ability [BAD LOOK]

    D2 - Believe’s Wolf’s claim

    D2 - Clarify’s that suspicion of Wolf was due to twisting his words [Fair criticism, good look].

    D2 - Townread’s Alex Kaz (Town) for believing Elementar is town, as well as “picking apart the game”. [This is suspect to me. Townreading somebody for not suspecting you is a huge scummy red flag. Though the “picking apart the game” part is somewhat valid reasoning, the post in question had primarily speculation and was also criticizing people who pushed Elementar. Looks a lot like looking out for self-interest to me.]

    D2 - Calls out Alex’s claim that FA sheeps, saying FA provides more reasoning than most, claims that DrumBeats had a bigger case on himself than Max and thinks DrumBeats is avoiding a mislynch, Votes for Cheff (Third vote) because he sheeped. [First part is good, second is suspect imo, but I’m a bit biased. I don’t like how he assumes I’m avoiding a mislynch with my pressure vote, though he avoided a mislynch on D1. Third part is also odd, because Elementar essentially combats sheeping by sheeping.]

    D2 - Votes DrumBeats, taking Max + Wolf’s word that Max answered the question. [Definite sheeping, which conflicts with Elementar’s previous stance against Cheff’s sheeping.]

    D3 - Questions Darth’s lack of an opinion on himself, DB, JD, and FA who have all been active players. Considers why all power players are still alive and votes for DrumBeats. [Everything looks reasonable here, though I wonder why the vote didn’t accompany his push of Darth.]

    D3 - Calls out Cheff’s scummy behavior occurring before Human brought up the cop, which makes Cheff’s reasoning questionable. [Very valid point and feels like a genuine opinion.]

    D3 - Claims that DB’s hypothetical PP scenario was a last ditch attempt to transfer suspicion to FA. Believes bringing up the possibility of being roleblocked when its available is just an excuse to backtrack. [Really twists my words to make it sound like I pushed on FA, when I just made one point about how FA had the least reason to still be alive as the rest of us. I even said in that that since I was basing the entire thing on my alignment being revealed to be town, to not look into it until I’m dead and cleared as town. Second part is just poor logic. I could easily fake a check if I was faking the role - it’d probably be more beneficial to me than claiming to have been roleblocked.]

    D3 - Questions what happens if DB is roleblocked, asks Wolf to explain her independence. Believes that DB’s 1x is an excuse to not share results. [Reasonable enough, realized I forgot to respond to this one. I’ll check on that and get back to you.]

    Questions:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why didn't you vote Darth with your push on him on early D3?
     
    Day 4: The Night Hanukkah Harry Couldn't Save Himself
  • Index
    • 1. @jdthebud
    2. @Max1996
    3. @Elementar
    4. @Slife
    5. @Pikochu
    7. @Soaringdylan
    8. @WolfOwl
    9. @CheffOfGames
    10. @DarthWolf13
    11. @Alex Kaz
    12. @DrumBeats
    13. @Hellcrow
    14. @FinalArcadia
    15. @HumanDawn
    @Enzap @TheCapsFan @Zexy
    @AussieEevee @BadAssGardevoir

    Day 4: The Night Hanukkah Harry Couldn't Save Himself

    Alone in his secret factory in Mt. Sinai,
    A man toiled into the late hours of the night.
    Unknowing that it was now his turn to die.
    The holiday villains showed up at first light.

    This particular attack was highly controversial.
    They even chased away his faithful and magical mules.
    No more could he call: "on Moishe, on Shlomo, on Herschel."
    These villains were certainly ruining everyone's yules.

    Dear DrumBeats,

    0.jpg

    Hanukkah Harry said:
    On Moishe! On Herschel! On Shlomo!
    Click to expand...

    The very incarnation of the spirit of Hanukkah, you are Hanukkah Harry.
    From your secret factory in Mt. Sinai, you and your assistants create wonderful gifts for all the Jewish boys and girls, which you distribute to them over the eight nights of Hanukkah.
    These gifts include sensible pairs of slacks, for the boys, and, if the child is especially good that year, socks. As for toys and candy, you provide much joy by delivering dreidels and chocolate coins to the children.
    You made your public debut on Saturday Night Live, in a skit called "The Night Hanukkah Harry saved Christmas."
    Santa was feeling ill that year, and requested that you fill in for him, as his elves didn't have enough magic to visit every Christian child in the world in one night. You sportingly decided to assist Santa, and so began your global journey to deliver your presents to the Christian children.
    Thanks to you, the true meaning of Christmas was discovered, and Santa was cured of his stomach virus.
    Your heroism and selflessness became well known, to the point where, one spring when you were visiting your family in Miami for Passover, the Easter Bunny requested your assistance in filling in for him after he broke his leg.
    With your friend Elijah the Invisible Prophet, you set off to deliver Easter baskets filled with such goodies as macaroons and chocolate covered Matza.
    Once again, you boldly saved the day, and managed to give one family the greatest Easter gift of all, the gift of rebirth.
    Since you once filled in for Santa Claus when he was ill, you are the 1x Backup Cop. In the event that the Cop is killed, you gain 1 shot of his investigative powers. When you want to use it, you may PM the hosts Check: (player) during the night, and you will find out whether they are naughty or nice at the phase update.
    You are allied with the Holiday Heroes, and you win when all hostile factions have been eliminated.

    The Drum has played its final beats.
    As the mafia approached supremacy.
    The town must not suffer repeats
    or else the bad guys will undo history.

    It is now Day 3. Phase ends 30/12/16 at 11:00pm U.S. Central Standard Time. However, as this will be ME's Sabbath, the phase may be extended by 24 hours unless a clear verdict occurs beforehand.
     
  • Index
    • 1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why didn't you vote Darth with your push on him on early D3?
    Click to expand...

    1. Well, I will get to that soon after my own reads list.

    2. I decided to focus more on you. However, that's gone bust.

    - D1 avoided taking action in DB vs. SD. It feels like this was to avoid suspicion of the lynch when it occurred.
    - Threatened the town with a destructive ability.
    - Townread Alex Kaz just after Kaz townread him. It felt like he was townreading Kaz for townreading him, rather than for Kaz's own actions.
    - Some hypocritical reasoning - specifically voting me for believing I was trying to avoid a mislynch, and sheeping onto the Cheff wagon because he believes Cheff is sheeping.
    Click to expand...

    1. I have tried to explain this as best I can, but I do admit, it wasn't the best thing to do at the time.
    2. It was a warning to help town. It wasn't a threat, but a pro-town warning.
    3. I was townreading Alex Kaz for their whole post, and my read was correct. I don't see how that's scummy...
    4. The first one is solid, but my reasoning for Cheff's vote was still reasoning.

    My reads are coming soon.
     
    What a beautiful present DB left for us. I'll address my part of it later, but definitely good timing on those reads.
     
    jdthebud - Has been up and down in activity, but I like their hesitation and clear thought process when deciding who to lynch. I never need to question why they are voting. I haven't seen much that they have actually done that could be considered scummy, but hasn't been overly helpful either. But seem generally pleased with the lack of PR deaths. I'm saying town.
    Max1996 - Spent Day 1 trying to get alerts working, and didn't post anything as his joke wagon turned into a mislynch. This could be seen as lurking and ensuring a mislynch without taking credibility for it, which seems true considering their statement of 'being surprised about the mislynch.' They knew SD was always a main target, but usually your first joke vote doesn't last the whole first day phase. Since then, has been a bit jumpy and avoiding asking questions. Seems hesitant, and could be waiting on sucm advice before answering. Contradicting and seems less confident than XY&Z. I'm saying strong scum.
    Slife - There's nothing to say about this slot really.
    Pikochu - Apparently they've had this cop check, which could be true, but they haven't done too much in the way of helping town. I want to know how active they are in OC, because I'm thinking this could be a Godfather slot. I'm saying slight scum.
    WolfOwl - Independent claim did come from under pressure, and survivor is a good claim to avoid being disturbed for the whole game. Out of the remaining power players, I'm thinking this slot would be scum. Seems to be buddying with the town, but that could be an illusion. Null-Slight scum.
    DarthWolf13 - Seems to have a good grasp on the game and is asking genuine questions. Seems entirely pro-town in motivations, but has ad a few slip ups. Leaning town.
    Hellcrow - Null. Again, there's hardly anything to say here. They did avoid HD's question completely, which I did point out.
    FinalArcadia - I highly doubt FA would've gone to kill DB, considering DB's theory. Has been a little less active lately, but still towny. Town.
    HumanDawn - Has been asking questions of everyone and has been reading situations well. Plus, a town check. I doubt they're Godfather.

    One more defence.

    DB said I was defending FA earlier. I was pointing out that I thought DB was shifting focus onto FA. And Alex Kaz put more into their two posts I townread them for than most others had in more, so that's why they were a townread for me.

    VOTE: Max1996

    Here's what I'm thinking.
    After hearing a Backup Cop claim, Max thought it was dangerous and decided to get rid of it. Considering DB's position, it was unlikely they were being protected. They might've submitted the kill because their teammates weren't active at the time, or, it could've been an attempt by other mafia members to try and put FA into the spotlight. I'm pushing for a Max lynch today, and maybe DB's right in that we look at WO afterwards. Thoughts?
     
    Questions for Max:

    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. Why do you think WolfOwl was lenient on you for being a new player, but not Cheff or Darth?

    Also despite me being very against you in this game, thank you for being very active as a new player. I hope you're having fun, and I'm sorry if my push has discouraged you from the game in any way!
    Click to expand...

    @DrumBeats

    As for my current top suspect, I'm going with WolfOwl. It's odd how he/she only defends me, instead of the other new players. Granted, it could be related to his/her Role PM, but until WolfOwl explains this...

    VOTE: WolfOwl
     
    DrumBeats said:
    1. Who are your current top suspects?

    2. What was up with that doctor thing you mentioned? You said you know there is a doctor, and you trust them?

    Thanks for being active as a new player, if you have any questions for me about why I think some of the reasoning is bad, I'd be happy to answer them.
    Click to expand...
    1. jdthebud and FA are pretty mixed for me, might be because of fever recent activity.
    DrumBeats said:
    Basically, if Max is scum, I almost guarantee that Wolf is as well. The buddying is strong with them.
    Click to expand...
    This sums up my thoughts on WO.
    HC, not enough activity.
    My current suspect is Max, a kill in him might help with info on WO

    VOTE: Max1996

    We really need a good lynch today, I don't want any more ties so I might change my vote for that.

    2. What else is there to tell?

    @DrumBeats I'll ask those questions at the end of the game, since you're dead now.
     
    1. Jd becaiee he still hasn't answered anything, however I'm trusting Human for now. That's really it for now. I still have to re read the threat.

    2. That was not entirely on purpose. As I've said a million times, I was super busy with work. The moment I saw my role I just thought "I need to make sure to claim right away." But considering I didn't even know the game started at first and my cold made me feel super crappy, I just ended up claimjng a bit later. I chose that moment trying to be a bit funny. But it was nothing more than doing Elementar a favor and allowing for him to spend his time scumhunting, this way there wouldn't be a yugioh battle city mafia 2.0.

    3. I didn't defend max because he's new, and I gave chef and dearth the same new leeway. Clearly my Max defense has been misread. I defended him because I saw him trying and if anyone else had done the same they would have gotten a pass. He had a lot of people asking him stuff and you could see him trying. That's town to me. He's not me, he's not human, he's not Zexy. He isn't someone who can fully respond yet. He's still learning, and that's the only new fact I considered is that he's still learning.

    4. I can't answer this one. It'll hurt the town and me. Sometimes you guys have to take a leap of faith.


    Lastly

    Vote: Elementar

    One of the unknowns. Even DB was scumreading him. Also I'm disturbed by that nightkill reasoning. Unless darth and Max are a lone scimteam, which doesn't make sense, then they would have an experienced player and that makes the nightkill unlikely. A role that only works after cop dies and is Tallinn about people having town roles makes him some vanilla that was on the chopping block. Everyone else, even the indep was more worthy than a kill. It seems more like a setup for that line.
     
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