Mafia ME VS WE Mafia - ENDGAME - Master Waffles - 28/07/2017

[Sword Master]

Well you deserved it more than town tbh, we kinda deserved to lose I guess.

 

[DarthWolf]

Also. GOD DARN DARTH BEING GODDAMN KINGMAKER AGAIN!
You might've been the Jester this time, Master Waffles, but you still were the kingmaker, if you had sided with town today they'd have won, but you decided to side with Mafia.

I'm always kingmaker, even by controlling myself from the outside.

As some of you might have noticed, I was the Godfather Ninja Rolecop. Tracker was pretty useless this game as I made all kills except the one strongman (which got seen ofc, well done @Pikochu )
We also knew all the roles at the end so it was pretty easy to eliminate the bigger threads.

I do have a question. Pika did indeed block my rolecop on him (wanted to do it a second time for fun, we already knew his role.) Yet the kill I made on Jsach went through, how?

 

[SoaringDylan]

I do have a question. Pika did indeed block my rolecop on him (wanted to do it a second time for fun, we already knew his role.) Yet the kill I made on Jsach went through, how?

Roleblockers block roles (as the name implies). Not factional abilities.

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

I wouldn't say "in depth" look. I am, however, willing to critique and give advice to the various players in the game, here or in private for what you could have done better.

What I will say in public, however, is twofold.
1. Activity, activity, activity. If you cannot be active in a game DO NOT JOIN THAT GAME. Activity literally killed town here, since they could have rallied and had enough votes to off DarthWolf this phase, leading to a town victory. Additionally, the two phases where Darth narrowly saved himself by causing an NL could have also been avoided by a little more activity in the town.

2. @Zexy what the hell were you thinking with some of those roles?! Destruction Starter, Poisoner, and Post Restrictor as Town roles?! No. No. NO.
Especially the Massive Egotist thing. The only role Massive Egotist is allowed to have is The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass. I mean, for crying out loud, he's got "ass" in his name!

 

[MegaPod]

I still can't believe I let myself get lynched from the destruction...noble move there, Capso.

 

[DarthWolf]

I am, however, willing to critique and give advice to the various players in the game, here or in private for what you could have done better.

I wouldn't mind if you have any for me. You may do it publically.

1. Activity, activity, activity. If you cannot be active in a game DO NOT JOIN THAT GAME. Activity literally killed town here, since they could have rallied and had enough votes to off DarthWolf this phase, leading to a town victory. Additionally, the two phases where Darth narrowly saved himself by causing an NL could have also been avoided by a little more activity in the town.

This is what I meant as well. It's not the best activity, because of the great inactivity that saved me and therefore the mafia.
All the subs also made the mafia chat pretty big, with 3 of 4 mafia left I was the only original member left.

2. @Zexy what the hell were you thinking with some of those roles?! Destruction Starter, Poisoner, and Post Restrictor as Town roles?! No. No. NO.
Especially the Massive Egotist thing. The only role Massive Egotist is allowed to have is The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass. I mean, for crying out loud, he's got "ass" in his name!

I do have to say, the post restriction made it pretty hard for scum to blend in while many players got cleared just by that.
Mine was to make posts that weren't supposed to make sense, so I took the extra effort to make it look like I had to encript my text to not link it to my character.

 

[CheffOfGames]

I am, however, willing to critique and give advice to the various players in the game, here or in private for what you could have done better.

I wouldn't mind if you have any for me. You may do it publically.

Same here

Oh yeah, forgot to say in my last post, it was a fun game (even with less activity, which just made it funny for me since mafia escaped that way too much) and thanks to the hosts for making it possible.

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

The PRs for scum were not handled well this game. While the PRs for town, in some cases, strongly hinted at a few ME characters, it was, by and large, ignored by everyone.

Darth, while you certainly did put in the most effort out of anybody this game, I would rate your scum performance as subpar.
Over all, your "overeagerness" to survive was, at least to me, a dead giveaway as to your alignment. Additionally, your attempt to distance yourself from the Elementar 1.0 lynch that you started was another red flag. You were very lucky that nobody was really paying attention and that the game was very inactive, since you should have been dead at least twice over.
Furthermore, your case on Pika_Pika42 was not only paper thin and easy to rip apart with even the most precursory of glances, your plan dragged your scumbuddy into it. If that plan had backfired, and it very well might have, Cheff would have been outed too, and it would have been game over. Going after the Town Roleblocker after Mafia Roleblocker had flipped was not bright.

Cheff, I'll deal with your second iteration when I go back and review, but, as to your first iteration, all I have to say is this: Why did you announce that it was you who caused the Post Restrictions?! I mean, I get what you were trying to do and, theoretically, it could have worked, but Post Restrictor is, and really always should be, a Mafia role, since it is worse than useless to town. I suppose this also begs the question of why you even bothered to use your ability in the first place, since it was so detrimental to town, but, given how I would react if I was put in a room with a giant red button, I really can't blame you there.

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

Oh, one more thing, Darth:

Finally, Jsach confirms me as town. Took a while for him to successfully check me.

*complains about how long it took for the Cop to confirm you as town*
*was Roleblocking the Cop most of that time*

Just saying.

 

[DarthWolf]

Darth, while you certainly did put in the most effort out of anybody this game, I would rate your scum performance as subpar.
Over all, your "overeagerness" to survive was, at least to me, a dead giveaway as to your alignment. Additionally, your attempt to distance yourself from the Elementar 1.0 lynch that you started was another red flag. You were very lucky that nobody was really paying attention and that the game was very inactive, since you should have been dead at least twice over.
Furthermore, your case on Pika_Pika42 was not only paper thin and easy to rip apart with even the most precursory of glances, your plan dragged your scumbuddy into it. If that plan had backfired, and it very well might have, Cheff would have been outed too, and it would have been game over. Going after the Town Roleblocker after Mafia Roleblocker had flipped was not bright.

Thanks, now let me comment on that.
Thank you for appreciating my activity here. I didn't think my scum play was that good either.
I was too stuck to faking beloved princess, I was starting think of one almost immediatly, given the godfather and ninja combo. I had to do a passive role and couldn't think of something good.
The Elementar lynch was a surprise to though. All I wanted to do was share my reads on the game to seem active and hunting. I agree that my reasoning was weak and therefore didn't expect Town to follow me blindly. Their mistake changed into mine as I was expecting a discussion to start on it, to get activity going and see who others want to lynch for a better reason to start a wagon on it. So in all, I wouldn't say I was lucky there.
You have to admit that at that point onward, everyone wanted to get me. I was done for and pretty much outed. I indeed should have been kiled twice already and therefore started my jester coop plan just before I would die.
My case on pika was a last attempt to get suspicion on him, his role is not that towny and I forgot our own roleblocker It was just a last attempt to help scum a bit. I was dead anyway, might as well do a last attempt, it's better than just sitting there. My other option was to go for Caps as he wanted the cop dead and DS is not a towny role either. He was a vanilla though, so he was not as big of a thread (if I knew roleblock wouldn't stop the kill then pika was basically an anti town vanilla and I would have gone for caps.).
I dragged cheff in it, but without elementar we were doomed. Even with a great certainty, I'll take big risks to get the victory. Go hard or go home.

Btw, @Elementar thank you for your cooperation.
I also hope that this shows to everyone that I won't always betray people.

 

[DarthWolf]

Oh, one more thing, Darth:

*complains about how long it took for the Cop to confirm you as town*
*was Roleblocking the Cop most of that time*

Just saying.

With a group of 3 I didn't want to risk the others to get caught.
After that I did it once more iirc as I wasn't feeling safe with it yet. I was too obvious so he might have gone for someone else When he outed that he indeed went for me I let him go, it was too late anyway.

So I indeed saw my mistakes myself already, do you also have any say on how to improve it?

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

So I indeed saw my mistakes myself already, do you also have any say on how to improve it?

The fact that you saw your mistakes already is a good sign, since knowing what you did wrong often is a good start towards correcting it.
Now then, Godfather/Ninja was indeed an interesting combination that would essentially mean that you'd need to give yourself a passive role. Personally, I'd have gone for something like Bomb instead of Beloved Princess. Gives the town a reason not to lynch you, and explains why mafia isn't killing you. There's a reason dylan does it so often.
In this case, it probably would have worked, since this was a dylan game and he is famous for Bombs.
TBH, I can't remember when exactly you claimed, but you may have done so too early. I'll doublecheck that. I will say that, the longer you wait to claim, especially in a game where you have Role Cop, the less chance you will claim something already in the game. A role like Bomb would be fairly reluctant to claim, since it defeats the purpose of the Bomb if mafia knows about it, so your hesitance to claim would make sense in light of your role.

I will admit, the Elementar 1.0 lynch was definitely moreso on town than it was on you, but you could have possibly earned more Townie points from it if you had attempted to start the conversation without trying to distance yourself from the lynch. Get people to present a better case on Elementar, reveal their thoughts on why Elementar was a good lynch. Adding in and expanding on your own thoughts for why Elementar was a good lynch. If town isn't talking, start the conversation. That puts you in the driver's seat and makes you look more townie.

As for your final plan, my only advice here is to pay more attention to your surroundings. There is no reason you should have forgotten about your own Roleblocker. Caps would have been a much more viable lynch, considering how he was never officially confirmed as anything and he had spent a lot of the game going after the un-CC'd Cop. Getting Pika_Pika to out his role and action on you, by rights, should have killed you. If Caps and Crow had shown up, the game was over. Lucky you, town was inactive.

 

[DarthWolf]

Now then, Godfather/Ninja was indeed an interesting combination that would essentially mean that you'd need to give yourself a passive role. Personally, I'd have gone for something like Bomb instead of Beloved Princess. Gives the town a reason not to lynch you, and explains why mafia isn't killing you. There's a reason dylan does it so often.
In this case, it probably would have worked, since this was a dylan game and he is famous for Bombs.

Your argument is the exact reason I didn't claim bomb (my only other fake claim idea btw).
It's a Dylan game with Dylan as a WE, claiming bomb would get me linked to his character.
I didn't claim publically, I did privately to people like pika. I played my claim as it I was really a BP and I wouldn't want mafia to know about that.

If Town did show up we would go for a tie. As Elementar would make a last moment vote if needed. @Elementar why didn't you change vote? There was also a sub needed which had to be skullcrow, or caps in a lesser likelyhood.
So we would have it anyway after the tie.

Thanks @Maniacal Engineer. WE might have won, but you gave great FT (still waiting for the last part) and you gave me some good advice and shared your honest thoughts on me. It's too bad you couldn't win this game as you rightfully should have.

 

[SoaringDylan]

Agreed, in this case it wouldn't have been good for him to claim bomb since I was a WE and by the point he started claiming I believe I already was dead.

 

[Elementar]

I thought the phase ended later Darth.

Congrats to the mafia, and thanks to the hosts for the game. I liked seeing who would have what roles. It was very interesting. And thanks to the mafia for letting me win as well.

 

[Zexy]

WE would like to thank everyone for playing! Less subs next time, please. And more activity/less pointless No Lynches would help too.
Also a big thank you to my co-hosts; Dylan who ran most of the game by himself and ME who does the FT.

2. @Zexy what the hell were you thinking with some of those roles?! Destruction Starter, Poisoner, and Post Restrictor as Town roles?! No. No. NO.
Especially the Massive Egotist thing. The only role Massive Egotist is allowed to have is The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass. I mean, for crying out loud, he's got "ass" in his name!

That was part of the setup's balance theme, MEs can be just as crazy/evil at times as WEs, and the game was supposed to be chaotic. It also makes the game more role-light and balanced when you give town roles that can help it but not as much as your regular town roles, and it makes the claim game more challenging.

As some of you might have noticed, I was the Godfather Ninja Rolecop. Tracker was pretty useless this game as I made all kills except the one strongman

Tracker's strength isn't only in getting the NKs seen, other actions seen can also help well.

Mine was to make posts that weren't supposed to make sense, so I took the extra effort to make it look like I had to encript my text to not link it to my character.

Technically, encrypted messages still make sense...

The PRs for scum were not handled well this game. While the PRs for town, in some cases, strongly hinted at a few ME characters, it was, by and large, ignored by everyone.

Disclaimer: I balanced the game but not the PRs, Dylan made those.
But the point is that some ME PRs help clear MEs while the WE PRs aren't immediately outing WEs because that would be broken.
The potential of cleared MEs however is what made the role town.

 

[Maniacal Engineer]

Your argument is the exact reason I didn't claim bomb (my only other fake claim idea btw).
It's a Dylan game with Dylan as a WE, claiming bomb would get me linked to his character.
I didn't claim publically, I did privately to people like pika. I played my claim as it I was really a BP and I wouldn't want mafia to know about that.

If Town did show up we would go for a tie. As Elementar would make a last moment vote if needed. @Elementar why didn't you change vote? There was also a sub needed which had to be skullcrow, or caps in a lesser likelyhood.
So we would have it anyway after the tie.

Thanks @Maniacal Engineer. WE might have won, but you gave great FT (still waiting for the last part) and you gave me some good advice and shared your honest thoughts on me. It's too bad you couldn't win this game as you rightfully should have.

Agreed, in this case it wouldn't have been good for him to claim bomb since I was a WE and by the point he started claiming I believe I already was dead.

Exactly the point. If the Dylan character was dead, then the Bomb couldn't be him.
Bomb is usually never a scum role, since its only use is if it is killed and 1v1 trades are not in scum's interests, because there are a lot less of them than there are of town. I still say it would have been the better option here, especially since scum would love to kill a Beloved Princess to get two night phases in a row. Besides, whom were you possibly thinking, flavorwise, could have worked for Beloved Princess?

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

I KNEW IT! GODDAMN DARTHWOLF AGAIN!!!

2. @Zexy what the hell were you thinking with some of those roles?! Destruction Starter, Poisoner, and Post Restrictor as Town roles?! No. No. NO.

This. Poisoner is at least reasonable since it's essentially a delayed vig, but the other two should definitely not have been town. I get that it fits the theme and everything, but you really shouldn't compromise the game for the purposes of theme.

 

[Pika_pika42]

Congrats Mafia and El (the Jester)

Darth won twice (himself and his role). I had basically caught your scummy act but couldn't lynch you. Town was very inactive in the later phases. It was basically 3v1 with El deciding to join you.

Cheff had an interesting role as the fake item giver, I didn't know such a role could exist.

Thank you Dylan for hosting this amazingly fun game.
Thank you Zexy for your MOD skills.
And thanks to ME for the interesting and sometimes funny FT. Sorry to disappoint you, ME deserved to win.

GG Town but let's try to be more active in future games.

 

[DarthWolf]

Tracker's strength isn't only in getting the NKs seen, other actions seen can also help well.

That's true, but his biggest power lies in finding scum with it.

Technically, encrypted messages still make sense...

I asked Dylan if that would be ok and he accepted.

Bomb is usually never a scum role, since its only use is if it is killed and 1v1 trades are not in scum's interests, because there are a lot less of them than there are of town. I still say it would have been the better option here, especially since scum would love to kill a Beloved Princess to get two night phases in a row. Besides, whom were you possibly thinking, flavorwise, could have worked for Beloved Princess?

Who would fit flavourwise with the bomb?
For the character, I was thinking of things like Miss Erika.