Pokemon Journeys: Thoughts So Far

[Kurolegacy]

They didn't give Ash another starter.

Ash literally had all 3 from Kanto and Johto. Why would they give him another of a Pokémon he already owns?

 

[Enzo]

or worse, used like a plot device, conveniently being on hand depending on what task the guy needs to do and then promptly limbo'd again with no recognition for the task it carried out.

This post gave such visceral fear that no horror movie has ever gave me. Congrats.

 

[swiftgallade46]

So I saw you talk about it for some time now, but your posts give me the impression that you believe art is subjective, it's not. Personal opinion doesn't change what is provably in a piece of art, and I think these fellows can explain this a lot better than I can.

Art absolutely is subjective. On this, we fundamentally disagree. Of course there are standards and criteria to consider. But what those standards and criteria are and how the art or media measure up to them is entirely up to the individual. I’m sorry, but you are not going to convince me that there is only one valid opinion.

And how do you think it makes people feel when they're berated and a mod says they lack civility and restraint because they've made exxagarated statements? Can't I reverse this accusation and say that I feel you are being needlesly negative about what people say?

Woah there. I haven’t “berated” anyone. Making exaggerated statements is a lack of civility/restraint. Just state your opinion without insulting anyone else’s.

I’m also not sure why you feel the need to keep bringing up that I’m a mod, but it’s irrelevant. I’m allowed to express my opinions just like anyone else.

And to answer your question: You could, but I haven’t. Calling out a negative behavior is not the same thing as perpetuating it. I’ve stated numerous times that I respect the core criticisms of what people have to say, just not always the ways they are presented. I have not always been afforded the same courtesy.

 

[skiittylalis]

i feel like something about the latest episode compelled me to pop in this thread and give a few thoughts..... esp now that i kinda realize my biggest gripe about this series. i think the biggest thing that makes this series, IN MY OPINION, worse than best wishes (never thought id type that!!) isnt the way they handle ash or goh, writing goh essay #7893, or whatever we've heard plenty of times. it's the way this series handles ash and gohs GOALS

first, im gonna get gohs goal out of the way because we've heard this one hundreds of times before. he wants to catch every pokemon and eventually mew. in concept..... okay i guess?? but in execution, i think watching a kid throw pokeballs at things and usually getting them first try isnt exciting. goh hardly struggles with his goal to the point that he can casually catch legendaries or make a questionable move of catching a pokemon owned by the plot device that makes me sad to be a rocket fan gacha machine (im not willing to argue on either side because i dont care enough: but it rubs me a certain wrong way still). regardless, the point is that he 99% gets to progress his goal at least every 1-2 episodes but that progress isnt fun to watch!! a goal a character never struggles with is boring to watch. i also feel like theyre RUSHING gohs goal like crazy to almost "force" him to be ash's "equal" which doesnt sit well with me considering that it took may 192 episodes to do this very same thing

and then there was ash. so refresher: whats ashs goal?? to beat leon in the world coronation series!! the mere concept of the wcs is awesome. like WOW ash can battle anyone which includes familiar faces for that sweet sweet fanservice but on top of that he can not only be the champion of another region, but champion of..... the world?! ash can be the most powerful trainer in the world!! woah!! i can admit that the early days of ashs established goal were decent to watch because despite the hilariously short battles, we saw ash actually progress towards his goal. and then we got the ash vs bea "arc" and ashs goal not only completely disappeared off the face of the earth for 12 episodes (may not seem like a lot, but this was a gap between september and JANUARY with no wcs battles) and when the anime staff happened to remember what ashs goal was, they decided to progress a huge chunk of it OFF SCREEN. ash is almost out of the great class and we barely saw any battles in this class! which utterly confuses me: was watching ash and co pick vegetables and enter an eating contest more important than progressing ash's goal? apparently!!

and THIS is what i mean by best wishes being better. yes, best wishes was a little or a lot messy in all kinds of places...... but despite the rushed and forced rewriting of perhaps the entire saga, ash had a GOAL that we could look forward to (while ignoring the culmination of said goal, unova league doesnt exist). we would endure the filler episodes because we knew that at the end of this episode a gym battle, and ash's next step to progressing his goal, could be in sight!! but with absolutely no "path" laid out for him, it feels like ash is only allowed to progress his goal whenever its convenient leading to gaps of 9-12 episodes between wcs battles. because we dont need to see ash battle and actually do the thing we are told he wants to do at the beginning of every single episode, we need to see some turtles and plusle and minun

the fact that this series just doesnt know how to handle ash and gohs goals makes it so hard to actually get invested into them. why should we care about these goals that are either being rushed and sometimes a little mcguffin-y and boring to watch, or a goal that doesnt even exist for half the time because it lives in the deepst darkest circle of offscreen-land?? at this point ash will actually defeat leon off screen. but the writers wont do that...... right?? RIGHT????

 

[Sobble Bubble-O-Seven]

Can we all just agree that Sobble deserved better treatment than this? I like seeing it be cute, but I want to see it do more than just that. In my honest opinion, Journeys has failed in this regard. Goh's Sobble just hasn't done a whole lot other than be cute and, dare I say, be a shoulder warmer for Goh. It doesn't do a lot of battling and that's what I want to see from it before it evolves.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Listen. If people don't see this Sobble as being a shoulder warmer or a glorified plushie for Goh, that's fine. However, I don't think it's right to label people like myself as being uncivil for thinking that. It's an opinion and we base that opinion off what we've seen. Goh's Sobble has done a whole lot of nothing ever since it debuted. It's done some useful things like assist in the Flygon capture and help out in the Inteleon episode, but besides that, it really hasn't done much. It usually just sits or stands around doing nothing but look cute. I love seeing Sobble do cute things, but I want it to do more.

How is thinking that being uncivil or toxic? I just don't see how one can think that. You can respectfully disagree with my take if you want, that's fine. However, I think it's wrong that people (and it's especially worse when a mod is guilty of this) jump on those who have different takes on certain things. I learned that mistake not that long ago after the disagreement I had with another user concerning Goh's Sobble possibly evolving into a Pokemon I don't like. People want Drizzile and that's fine. I don't want it, but other people do. More power to them.

I think people are misunderstanding this issue. Saying that Sobble has been a shoulder warmer or a glorified plushie for Goh isn't necessarily being uncivil or toxic. Being upset with how Sobble has been handle isn't really the problem either. From what I've seen, the problem boils down to how people often present their often negative opinions as facts, such as the notion that evolving Sobble proves that the anime doesn't know what to do with the Galar starters or don't care about them, belittle those who disagree with them and generally make people more uncomfortable to post different opinions as a result. I've seen people jump all over me for not really agreeing with the screentime issue or because I like Go too.

To be clear, I'm not saying that no one can dislike Journeys or voice their complaints about it. There are plenty of valid issues on the series and plenty that I agree with too. I just think it becomes excessive when it's harder or more nerve racking for people to post their opinions that are different from what might be seen as the majority opinion here. That's a big sign of having a toxic atmosphere. To be fair, that isn't really exclusive to this site either when I've seen similar reactions to Journeys on other sites, but it does make me think that this kind problem is really more about people not being able to calmly explain their problems with the series more than anything else.

 

[Alola]

Hello, folks!

I feel that there is something I need to address as a moderator who comments in the section.

Moderators are also users just like the users who frequent and interact with this forum. Ergo, moderators are allowed to express their opinions regarding the topics, threads, and any other material that is up for discussion. Just because users are moderators should not be levied against them for doing so. I can see how a moderator's comment may carry additional weight for certain cases, but our opinions outside of moderating are no different than a non-moderator; if you think as such, I would like to tell you otherwise.

That being said, moderators do have a job and expectation to moderate the forum they are moderators of. It is both our responsibility and prerogative; it would be remiss of us to not comment on the patterns of our community, both positive and negative. Thus, please do not be surprised or offended if we directly address the atmosphere of a thread, several threads, or negative insinuations one's posts may be making or contributing to. Users can of course respond to these moderations within threads, but with the expectation of being polite and respectful when doing so - not by attacking a mod or attempting to paint their moderation as a form of victimization. We are performing the basic expectation of our jobs, for the goal of a welcoming community for everyone to engage in.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I just hope people realise that toxic negativity AND toxic positivity are both issues on here, and I hope both are acknowledged.

I’m too exhausted to write any comments about this but personally I feel that some users are being unfairly accused of deliberately promoting a negative atmosphere. I’ve counted many times where my opinions have been dismissed by a barrage of what is call toxic positivity. So if the moderation team calls one out, not calling the other feels wrong as well.

It isn’t really welcoming when you enter a thread, form an opinion and are accused of creating a negative echo chamber simply for having that opinion.

 

[Enzo]

I wasn't even gonna comment on this, and I don't wanna throw any more fuel to the fire, I swear I'm not.

But this is honestly one of my biggest gripes here. It seems like no one is really ''allowed'' (for the lack of a better word) to say anything even remotely bad, or even just innocent criticism agaisnt JN, that some people (in a broad sense, not targeting anyone here) immediatly jump to their throats and saying stuff like ''Oh look how insane and uncivil this person is being!!!''

It's almost as you end up being painted as this crazy, rowdy, obnoxiously loud person that is just screaming baseless nonsense cuz you wanna create chaos. Even if you are literally just pointing a fact out. I just feel like sometimes a lot of people in here try to create this sorta of ''moral highground'' of sorts when it comes to this.

Just as @PkmnTrainerV said, a lot of people try to dismiss and downplay other's complains with this narrative. Just waves their hands and say: ''Look how utterly negative this individual is being! They are creating a echo chamber in here!", when in reality, people from entirely different places, be another forum, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, literally anywhere else have the similar complaints. These people don't even know each other yet they find themselves with the same/similar opinions about the show. So I don't believe it's a ''herd effect'' playing it's part here in this forum.

And yes, there's people here how do get rowdy. I've seen it here. The mods are 100% correct in putting these people in their places. But using this people as scapegoats to dismiss any sorta criticism is not it.

 

[Hidden Mew]

And yes, there's people here how do get rowdy. I've seen it here. The mods are 100% correct in putting these people in their places. But using this people as scapegoats to dismiss any sorta criticism is not it.

To be clear, I don't think any staff members or regular members have been using any specific users as scapegoats to dismiss crticisms towards Journeys. This kind of problem isn't tied down to a specific group of users exactly, especially when I have seen similar kind of reactions in other sites too. Like I mentioned before, the problem really boils down to to just how people discuss their issues with the anime and especially how they handle disagreements. Plus, I mentioned before that we aren't trying to say that people aren't allowed to criticize Journeys. There is a difference between having a calm and respectful discussion, even if you do disagree with each other on the topic, and treating opinions as facts and belittling those who disagree with those opinions.

Generally speaking, I have seen more people being jumped on for liking Journeys than disliking it, as well as experiencing that myself personally. That being said, we don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable posting their thoughts about the anime here. Whether it's positive, negative or whatever, we ideally want everyone to just enjoy being able to talk about the anime. That's what I assume most users in this section want to do and encouraging a friendly/healthy atmosphere for discussions is one of the things the staff wants to do too. People are allowed to express whatever opinion they have on the anime. The negativity usually becomes more of a problem if it does result in character bashing, insulting other people or their opinions. If you're able to express your negative opinion on Journeys without doing anything like that, then I don't think you need to worry about being dismissed as a crazy toxic person for disliking or having major problems with the anime.

 

[Enzo]

To be clear, I don't think any staff members or regular members have been using any specific users as scapegoats to dismiss crticisms towards Journeys. This kind of problem isn't tied down to a specific group of users exactly, especially when I have seen similar kind of reactions in other sites too. Like I mentioned before, the problem really boils down to to just how people discuss their issues with the anime and especially how they handle disagreements. Plus, I mentioned before that we aren't trying to say that people aren't allowed to criticize Journeys. There is a difference between having a calm and respectful discussion, even if you do disagree with each other on the topic, and treating opinions as facts and belittling those who disagree with those opinions.

Generally speaking, I have seen more people being jumped on for liking Journeys than disliking it, as well as experiencing that myself personally. That being said, we don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable posting their thoughts about the anime here. Whether it's positive, negative or whatever, we ideally want everyone to just enjoy being able to talk about the anime. That's what I assume most users in this section want to do and encouraging a friendly/healthy atmosphere for discussions is one of the things the staff wants to do too. People are allowed to express whatever opinion they have on the anime. The negativity usually becomes more of a problem if it does result in character bashing, insulting other people or their opinions. If you're able to express your negative opinion on Journeys without doing anything like that, then I don't think you need to worry about being dismissed as a crazy toxic person for disliking or having major problems with the anime.

I just wanna clarify that I didn't said the mods themselves are doing it. I just said that you are correct in your stance in keeping things civil in here. It's you guy's jobs to do so, and I do believe you are doing it very well.

And no, I haven't been bashed and called ''toxic, crazy or loud'' for my opinions and takes in here. I wouldn't be here if it happened, honestly. I confess my temper is a bit too nasty and my fuse is a bit too short to have the patience to work things calmly if it did ended up like this. But I have seen it happening with others that are dissastified with this series before with my own eyes. I just don't think people should be treated as vandals for not liking something. And grouping these people together in the same package with the people who do get like that to support a point is, honestly, a low blow in my eyes.

Also, I'm not saying or acussing any members of the staff or anyone of the site of accepting and encouraging it. But I needed to get this one out of my chest, since it's been boiling here for a while. Sorry if I was too angry or anything here.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

then I don't think you need to worry about being dismissed as a crazy toxic person for disliking or having major problems with the anime

To be honest, the term “Go hater” and some very, very pointedly targeted posts at that particular segment of people, are more common around here for some reason. Someone having a not so glowing review about something related to Gou is not exactly encouraged to post in that kind of climate.

Anything else I’d want to write would probably be a repeat of @Enzo ’s posts xD

 

[Unireon]

There are some people who tend to jump to conclusions.
You say something bad, or even neutral, about Gou. Then they label you as a hater.
Or as a Satoshi-Lover.

Saying that the series has issues dealing with the focus, mentioning that Gou receives more, is not a reason to attack people.

 

[Enzo]

@Enzo

To be fair, the mod who said people create a negative echo chamber already apologized for that specific comment (not for the other comments though)...

I just wanna clarify that I didn't said the mods themselves are doing it. I just said that you are correct in your stance in keeping things civil in here. It's you guy's jobs to do so, and I do believe you are doing it very well.

 

[GrookeyFan77]

On Twitter people hate Goh haters but in reality Goh lovers are more toxic there,

 

[Hidden Mew]

I just wanna clarify that I didn't said the mods themselves are doing it. I just said that you are correct in your stance in keeping things civil in here. It's you guy's jobs to do so, and I do believe you are doing it very well.

And no, I haven't been bashed and called ''toxic, crazy or loud'' for my opinions and takes in here. I wouldn't be here if it happened, honestly. I confess my temper is a bit too nasty and my fuse is a bit too short to have the patience to work things calmly if it did ended up like this. But I have seen it happening with others that are dissastified with this series before with my own eyes. I just don't think people should be treated as vandals for not liking something. And grouping these people together in the same package with the people who do get like that to support a point is, honestly, a low blow in my eyes.

Also, I'm not saying or acussing any members of the staff or anyone of the site of accepting and encouraging it. But I needed to get this one out of my chest, since it's been boiling here for a while. Sorry if I was too angry or anything here.

I do appreciate the clarification and I don't think that you were too angry either. I can understand your frustration if you feel like you can't say what you dislike about the series. Personally speaking, I don't think people here have been treated as vandals just for not liking Journeys or Goh. It's more of an issue of how those opinions are presented, such as all of the exaggerated takes on Goh being a villain in the making, and/or how people handle disagreements that often results in a heated debate or toxic atmosphere here.

To be honest, the term “Go hater” and some very, very pointedly targeted posts at that particular segment of people, are more common around here for some reason. Someone having a not so glowing review about something related to Gou is not exactly encouraged to post in that kind of climate.

Considering how much discussion on Goh and how the bulk of it isn't a glowing review either, I don't know if people are as discouraged to post negative opinions on him as they are on posting positive opinions on him. It seems like the more negative takes on his character and his story are generally better received here than more positive opinions, at least from what I've seen. That being said, dismissing people as Goh haters can be problematic in itself. There has been an us vs. them mentality pretty much since Journeys started over Goh, which has been part of the problem too. The situation isn't really that black or white or down to just specific members. It is more of an overall attitude problem with how people in general handle discussions and differences over options.

 

[swiftgallade46]

To be honest, the term “Go hater” and some very, very pointedly targeted posts at that particular segment of people, are more common around here for some reason. Someone having a not so glowing review about something related to Gou is not exactly encouraged to post in that kind of climate.

Anything else I’d want to write would probably be a repeat of @Enzo ’s posts xD

There are some people who tend to jump to conclusions.
You say something bad, or even neutral, about Gou. Then they label you as a hater.
Or as a Satoshi-Lover.

Saying that the series has issues dealing with the focus, mentioning that Gou receives more, is not a reason to attack people.

I’m sorry the two of you have had to experience these things. I can confidently say that the moderation team is here for people who experience labeling and dismissal no matter what their opinion is. That’s why I made an apology for my echo-chamber comment. I would encourage anyone who is met with this kind of thing to report it immediately. It not only helps us to address that particular situation, but it also helps us gauge the problems in our section as a whole.

So far, we have experienced significantly more reports regarding people who take their negative views of JN and Goh too far. That does not mean:
a) People who like JN are never guilty of taking things too far themselves nor
b) People are incapable of criticizing JN or Goh without using charged or inflammatory language

As someone who reads/skims nearly every post in the section daily, I can also confidently say that I see far more negative views of JN than positive. There’s nothing really wrong with that in and of itself (it’s got its fair share of flaws), but it does tend to get repetitive hence my misplaced “echo chamber” comment. It should be emphasized that a majority of these comments are perfectly valid and within our rules.
Some comments skate by on being within the rules, but are still rather pointed or snarky. These are ones that I won’t hesitate to call out in the interest of promoting a more positive atmosphere here. And, yes, both JN critics and proponents are guilty of this at times.

 

[Alola]

Admittedly I find it interesting that there is a sentiment here that users feel they cannot express their dissenting opinion of Go...when disagreements, dislike, and condemnation are the most often appearing posts regarding Go and have been in this section since his inception. There are explicitly more users here that disapprove something about him than there are people who like something about him. Thus, I disagree if there is a sentiment where one feels they cannot share anything negative about him as a character.

The issue lies in how that disdain is expressed. I just hope users do not conflate a moderators action on someone who dislikes Go with someone who dislikes Go rudely; as Gallade said, that is what a majority of our reports have boiled down to - the people who visibly attack others over Go, say blatantly unnecessary comments regarding Go (that children can be privy too), or anything within that spectrum. We have to draw a line there and several users have crossed it.

 

[KenzeyEevee]

Well we are 60 episodes far and it isnt great. The writing is all over the place, rushed and could be better.

 

[LazySpy]

are still rather pointed or snarky.

So...
I feel targeted because I know I have a very snarky personality, and if it's not aimed directly at me then it doesn't really matter, I feel it's a good moment to issue an apology for that.

I've spend a long time being in communities where people communicate with snark and sarcasm and it's seen as completelly harmless and I admittebly carried a lot of that attitude over to this place. I feel like it's become a huge staple of my internet character (my Twitter is proof of that), but it's rather clear by now that this sort of attitude has contributed to toxic atmosphere in this website, which wasn't my intention at all, but here we are.

So yes. I am sorry that I was being snarky and agressively defensive, and moving forward, I'll try my best to act in a more considerate manner. I really didn't mean to upset or discomfort anyone, and I feel terrible thinking I may have inadvertedly did that.

Not to say I'll approve of everything that the mods do. I'll place you under the same degree of scrutiny I would everyone. I'll just try my best to do that in a more respectfull manner, as you all thoroughly insisted.