The better Ash-Loss question

[EscLucy]

I hope in future we get a tech geek , science nerd rival for Ash, that would use strategy, abilities and moves fully and force Ash for the best.

Ohhh like Conway? That would be cool.

 

[Matleo]

Conway

Conway2.0, more tech based, more strategy, more abilities, moves and dual typed team.
Someone that would always say Ash why something hapens, type immunities and on... but without the Pathetic Paul respound but rather act like a teacher but not a Proffesor... a young persona...
With pokemon like Ditto, Shedinja, Zoroark and similar ones.
maybe could have the oposite starter pokemon to Ash.
maybe a female rival would be accurate in this role?

 

[SinnohEevee]

I'm still not sure if kids would be that focused on whether or not Ash wins a Pokemon League. Maybe I'm just protecting a a bit here since I haven't cared about Ash winning a League in years, but it is not that big of a deal. The anime has always been more about the journey than the destination, so why bother getting so upset over Ash not winning a League? I still doubt that kids are coming into the show primarily to see Ash win a League. I'm sure that they'd like that, but that's probably not a big reason as to why they start watching the show.

Besides all that, I wouldn't say that Ash looks like a joke the more he loses. As others have brought up in his thread, his battles against Harrison and Tyson came down to the wire, so it's not like he was easily defeated. When he lost to Tobias, he was the only trainer who was able to defeat Darkrai and tied against his Latios. Even though losing to Cameron was bad, I wouldn't say he looked like a joke. Much like his battles against Trip, I think that the writing behind the battles look worse than Ash does in that case. While he did lose to Alain, the fact that he got to the final round for the first time is a huge accomplishment. For the most part, he puts up good battles during his final matches that shows the strength of his teams and his skills as a trainer.

This mentality that winning is the only thing that matters has always bothered me. Just because Ash lost doesn't mean that he looks like a joke or that his entire journey was a waste. There was usually a steady sense of progression in each League, until the Unova League, and I don't like how people disregard that just because he didn't win. He was basically the honorary runner-up in the Sinnoh League and a finalist in the Kalos League. Those are pretty big accomplishments and his reaction to losing to Alain was a nice character moment too. But because he didn't get a fancy trophy declaring him the winner, people dismiss these moments/accomplishments as nothing and see Ash as a joke. I can understand being upset over Ash losing to a degree and I can understand wanting to see him win even after all these years, but it's the notion that nothing besides winning the League matters that bothers me a lot.

Outside of the anime fandom, Ash is seen as a joke. You give people (including kids) games where they can become Champion in 1 month while Ash has been and will keep losing Leagues for decades. I can even see the show making him lose 10-20 major Leagues in a row.
I heard GF worked on distancing Red from Ash (like by the design), and I don't blame them because for the games' community, Ash is a joke, especially for competitive players (that could explain why Paul is popular. He only catches strong Pokémon, uses strategy, and regardless of how he treats his Pokémon, his methods work (a lot even make excuses for how he treated Chimchar, some may even blame the latter)). The wider Pokémon fandom keeps dissing Ash and praising Red.

I give this show until Gen VIII, and if they keep making Ash lose, I will just give up. I don't want to see him losing for 20 more years, but given the executives (unless they change their attitude), he may make him lose 20 League Conferences in a row.

Also, maybe you don't care that much because of the OL, but that's not like other League. No Conference, only 4 Gym Badges, half of the Gyms didn't require battles, and there's no E4.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Outside of the anime fandom, Ash is seen as a joke. You give people (including kids) games where they can become Champion in 1 month while Ash has been and will keep losing Leagues for decades. I can even see the show making him lose 10-20 major Leagues in a row.
I heard GF worked on distancing Red from Ash (like by the design), and I don't blame them because for the games' community, Ash is a joke, especially for competitive players (that could explain why Paul is popular. He only catches strong Pokémon, uses strategy, and regardless of how he treats his Pokémon, his methods work (a lot even make excuses for how he treated Chimchar, some may even blame the latter)). The wider Pokémon fandom keeps dissing Ash and praising Red.

That's not really a fair comparison though. One of the main objectives of the games is to become the Champion. While Ash's goal is to become a Pokemon Master, that's not really the main objective when each series has put much more focused on Ash's journey with his friends instead of getting closer to his goal. Not to mention we still don't know what a Pokemon Master is exactly even after all these years. The most we know is that defeating the Elite 4 is part of that goal and that didn't come up until the end of DP.

Besides that, playing through a video game is obviously not the same as a character battling through different regions in an animated series. Of course people, including kids, are able to go through the games and become Champions relatively fast, especially when a major complaint for the past two generations is that the games are too easy. Players can go through a video game pretty easily, but you can't compare that with how Ash goes through a region. They have to stretch things out for a full generation and he loses at least partly because he's an iconic lead character. Even if the writers did want to replace Ash, he's been established as the main character of the anime for far too long for that to be possible, especially when Ash's Pikachu is popular in its own right too.

I know that it's popular for fans to hate on Ash while praising Red, but that's really a fair comparison either. Like all of the playable characters, Red has no personality other than what fans project on him. That's why fans love Red because they can imagine him as the silent tough trainer. Ash has at least some established personality. Nothing ground breaking, but he does have more personality than Red. And because the games are structured differently than an anime series managed by different writers and executives, the comparison really doesn't work.

I give this show until Gen VIII, and if they keep making Ash lose, I will just give up. I don't want to see him losing for 20 more years, but given the executives (unless they change their attitude), he may make him lose 20 League Conferences in a row.

I can understand wanting to see Ash win a League, but if that is such a major reason why you keep watching the anime, then I think you're just setting yourself for disappointment. If it bothers you that much now, then I don't see how winning one League would instantly make up for all of his defeats. I'm also not sure how much enjoyment you can get from watching the anime if at least one of your primary reasons for watching it is to see Ash win a League.

Also, maybe you don't care that much because of the OL, but that's not like other League. No Conference, only 4 Gym Badges, half of the Gyms didn't require battles, and there's no E4.

That's not why I don't care about Ash winning a League. Admittedly, I do think his Orange League victory should count. Even with being different from other Leagues, it was still labeled as a League. The main reason people don't count it is because it was an anime only region instead of being based off of the games. Even though I have mixed feelings on the arc itself, I also think that winning the Battle Frontier should be considered even more impressive than winning a League because only select trainers could participate and becoming a new Frontier Brain is still really impressive. But that isn't why I don't care about Ash winning a League.

I don't care about Ash winning a League because it's not why I watch the show. Even when I thought Ash winning a League was a possibility during the original series, I don't think it was a huge factor as to why I kept watching the show. I liked Ash, his friends and seeing Pokemon on TV was just neat. Ash losing didn't suddenly make all of my enjoyment of the previous episodes disappear or make all of his journeys pointless. Even now, I watch the show because I like the characters, I like seeing how they adapt certain aspects of the games, I like watching most of the battles, I like seeing what new ideas they try out with each series, even if some of the ideas really don't work, and it's just generally fun to watch. Ash winning a League is just not a big deal for me and I don't think it ever was. I can still understand why people would want to see that even after all this time, but it just doesn't make sense to keep watching the anime in the hopes that he'll suddenly win a League, especially when he still has some pretty big accomplishments even without a fancy trophy and Championship title to go with most of them.

 

[EscLucy]

I also think that winning the Battle Frontier should be considered even more impressive than winning a League

I agree, this was one of my favourite series and it was really nice to see Ash win and get the chance to be a Frontier Brain.

I agree with your other comments. I don't watch the anime just for the League even though Ash is central to the main plot. I like the unique, filler episodes and (most) the villainous group plots etc. Whilst, I do get triggered that Ash loses, e.g. to Cameron, I feel as though it is ok if he doesn't win because he can try again. I would like a situation where Ash does challenge all of the E4 though - like the BF but in fewer episodes.

 

[SinnohEevee]

That's not really a fair comparison though. One of the main objectives of the games is to become the Champion. While Ash's goal is to become a Pokemon Master, that's not really the main objective when each series has put much more focused on Ash's journey with his friends instead of getting closer to his goal. Not to mention we still don't know what a Pokemon Master is exactly even after all these years. The most we know is that defeating the Elite 4 is part of that goal and that didn't come up until the end of DP.

Besides that, playing through a video game is obviously not the same as a character battling through different regions in an animated series. Of course people, including kids, are able to go through the games and become Champions relatively fast, especially when a major complaint for the past two generations is that the games are too easy. Players can go through a video game pretty easily, but you can't compare that with how Ash goes through a region. They have to stretch things out for a full generation and he loses at least partly because he's an iconic lead character. Even if the writers did want to replace Ash, he's been established as the main character of the anime for far too long for that to be possible, especially when Ash's Pikachu is popular in its own right too.

I know that it's popular for fans to hate on Ash while praising Red, but that's really a fair comparison either. Like all of the playable characters, Red has no personality other than what fans project on him. That's why fans love Red because they can imagine him as the silent tough trainer. Ash has at least some established personality. Nothing ground breaking, but he does have more personality than Red. And because the games are structured differently than an anime series managed by different writers and executives, the comparison really doesn't work.



I can understand wanting to see Ash win a League, but if that is such a major reason why you keep watching the anime, then I think you're just setting yourself for disappointment. If it bothers you that much now, then I don't see how winning one League would instantly make up for all of his defeats. I'm also not sure how much enjoyment you can get from watching the anime if at least one of your primary reasons for watching it is to see Ash win a League.



That's not why I don't care about Ash winning a League. Admittedly, I do think his Orange League victory should count. Even with being different from other Leagues, it was still labeled as a League. The main reason people don't count it is because it was an anime only region instead of being based off of the games. Even though I have mixed feelings on the arc itself, I also think that winning the Battle Frontier should be considered even more impressive than winning a League because only select trainers could participate and becoming a new Frontier Brain is still really impressive. But that isn't why I don't care about Ash winning a League.

I don't care about Ash winning a League because it's not why I watch the show. Even when I thought Ash winning a League was a possibility during the original series, I don't think it was a huge factor as to why I kept watching the show. I liked Ash, his friends and seeing Pokemon on TV was just neat. Ash losing didn't suddenly make all of my enjoyment of the previous episodes disappear or make all of his journeys pointless. Even now, I watch the show because I like the characters, I like seeing how they adapt certain aspects of the games, I like watching most of the battles, I like seeing what new ideas they try out with each series, even if some of the ideas really don't work, and it's just generally fun to watch. Ash winning a League is just not a big deal for me and I don't think it ever was. I can still understand why people would want to see that even after all this time, but it just doesn't make sense to keep watching the anime in the hopes that he'll suddenly win a League, especially when he still has some pretty big accomplishments even without a fancy trophy and Championship title to go with most of them.

I am not watching it to see Ash winning, I am watching it because it was part of my childhood, but there comes a time when one gets sick with all the sh*t this show pulls. Sometimes, I feel it will be better if I could detach myself from it easier than now because at the end of the day, this show is nothing but a glorified commercial that lasts 22 minutes with a mediocre quality. Take the Pokémon off and this show would be trash. It has no incentive to care about writing quality because it makes tons of money and the target audience keeps renewing itself.

I also don't see if they will have a valid excuse to make him lose in Gen VIII. The "there's always someone better than him" stops making sense after a while, so I guess they will bring up another Trollbias or regress him.

 

[EscLucy]

You make a fair point but it's not going to change unless they find some clever way to make him win and keep viewing numbers high. Plus, when have they ever listened to constructive criticism from viewers?

 

[Hidden Mew]

I am not watching it to see Ash winning, I am watching it because it was part of my childhood, but there comes a time when one gets sick with all the sh*t this show pulls. Sometimes, I feel it will be better if I could detach myself from it easier than now because at the end of the day, this show is nothing but a glorified commercial that lasts 22 minutes with a mediocre quality. Take the Pokémon off and this show would be trash. It has no incentive to care about writing quality because it makes tons of money and the target audience keeps renewing itself.

I don't think that's a much better reason for keeping up with the series either. There are some shows from my childhood that I still like, including Pokemon, but there are also shows from that time that I don't like anymore for various reasons. There are some shows that you like when you're younger and just can't enjoy when you get older. While it never really happened for me, it is pretty typical for people to grow out of the anime, for lack of a better term, or to take a break from it for a series or two. You don't have to force yourself to watch something you don't like or are really upset over just because it is part of your childhood. I just don't see how you can get much enjoyment from the show if you're forcing yourself to watch it because it was part of your childhood.

While I'd say that the quality of the show is more subjective than anything else, Pokemon has always been a glorified commercial for the games and other merchandise. That didn't just suddenly happen. The show exists entirely due to the success of the games. I am confused over the notion of how the show would be trash if they took the Pokemon off. I understand the general point you're trying to make, but the Pokemon are pretty vital to the show. They aren't something that you can easily just replace with animals or something else. Pokemon is the name of the show, or Pocket Monsters for the Japanese version. The argument that the show would be trash if they took the Pokemon off doesn't work when they're a huge component to the show. It's just a weird kind of argument to make. Removing Pokemon from the show would basically be making a brand new show instead. The characters' goals primarily revolve around Pokemon, so it's not like they'd be the same or function the same way as they do in the show.

I also don't see if they will have a valid excuse to make him lose in Gen VIII. The "there's always someone better than him" stops making sense after a while, so I guess they will bring up another Trollbias or regress him.

Not really. There are a lot of trainers in the world of Pokemon, so the idea that there's always someone stronger/better than Ash makes sense. Ash is still a ten year old boy who often does lose to trainers who are older than him with more experience behind their belt. There are still some cheap ways they go about for his defeats, but just because Ash has a lot of past experience himself doesn't make him unbeatable or anything like that. That's one reason why Ash loves to keep traveling. He wants to meet more strong opponents and get stronger himself.

Even if he does win in the next series, would that make up for over twenty years of defeat for you? If it bothers you this much already, I just have a hard time imagining that one League victory would be enough to satisfy you. This is one reason why I find it so strange to not count the Orange Island League. That did happen a long time ago at this point, but if it was somehow based on a main series title, people would count it as a League victory. The different format or lack of more direct battles wouldn't have changed anything, especially when a good amount of Ash's Kanto badges didn't come from actually defeating the Gym Leaders. If you are so set on Ash winning that nothing else matters, then you're really not going to get much if any enjoyment out of any future Leagues.

You make a fair point but it's not going to change unless they find some clever way to make him win and keep viewing numbers high. Plus, when have they ever listened to constructive criticism from viewers?

Honestly, why would they bother listening to fans who are well outside of the target demographic? There are some good ideas fans have that could work, but I also think that fans tend to think too highly of their own ideas. This isn't just for Pokemon either. A lot of fans of different shows, especially shows aimed at kids, think that their ideas are so much better without factoring in the limitations that the writers have to deal with. A show like Pokemon would have a lot more restrictions than a non-toyetic series since Pokemon exists to promote new Pokemon and elements from the games. That's going to limit what they can do more than people usually tend to recognize.

 

[SinnohEevee]

You make a fair point but it's not going to change unless they find some clever way to make him win and keep viewing numbers high. Plus, when have they ever listened to constructive criticism from viewers?

It's a problem with the whole franchise. Since they will always get new children fans and make tons of money just by showing up some magical monsters, the anime and games don't feel the need to listen to the fans.
A lot of fans were begging GF to reintroduce the Battle Frontier, but GF didn't listen (I personally neutral on this as I never played the BF).
Lots of fans like Mega Evolution, but we didn't get any new ones.
GF has no incentive to make good games.
The anime too has no incentive to have a good quality because kids will just watch it for the magical monsters. Ash's loss aren't the only thing, but they are an example. We also get other stuff like the scrapped GS Ball, the countless CotD/PotD fillers, episodes where a plot is resolved by a cop-off (by having everyone team against Team Rocket, like with that Florges), Best Wishes, Cameron, lack of development for many cast characters, etc.

 

[CrystaI]

Both side had valid points. I would agree pokemons is indeed the vital factor that makes it iconic for Pokemon Anime which shouldn't be taken away. Yet at the same time, it means Pokemon Anime only has this vital factor to sell and nothing else, no memorable story plot, no discussable theme, no character depth.

In order to validate the discussion point in here, let's try to imagine a different anime show in here. There is a new anime aimed at preteen children coming up in the next month, let's call it "Newbie's Journey". This is an adventure anime set in a contemporary fantasy world, the protagonist Newbie is a kid wanted to master an art skill specific to this fantasy world, where he required to go to different cities and towns to challenges the art skill veterans at those places. Along his journey, Newbie notice there is a large tournament in the upcoming future where many art skill veterans will gather and challenge each other. He decided to participate and aimed to win to demonstrate his mastery of that art skill. Along his journey to mastery, other than the challenges between the veterans, Newbie also used his art skill to help many nameless passer-by he meet on the road, and also for many other daily sitcom situations. Newbie meet many skill artists that are like him, and challenges many skill artists during the road. Time goes by, Newbie reaches the tournament, enter and challenges the topmost skill artists in the world. And the final result of this tournament is...... I'll leave this to your imagination.

What is the difference between "Newbie's Journey" and Pokemon Anime? Well technically speaking, it should only be the existence of pokemon. But without the pokemon, audience shall turn their focus more on the characters and interaction between characters, also more on the narratives and story plot. That art skill may be the crucial factor that defines the characteristics and personality of Newbie, but this art skill shall not be the icon of this anime. Remember, a drama doesn't formed just by letting the iconic mascot move and exist and doing trivial things on the screen. A drama is formed by character interactions.



Going back to the first point of fact that Pokemon Anime is Pokemon Anime only when the precondition of existence of pokemon is met, there are also many people watching the Pokemon Anime for the pokemons and they don't care much about the battles. So here is the catch. Is Pokemon Anime a show about the pokemon species, or a show about the fantasy culture of Pokemon Battle?

It is debatable is the current sitcom SM series interesting or not. But personally speaking from my opinion, I welcome such change of direction, despite I dislike its poorly done slapstick. Even back in the old days, I prefer episodes and scenes where pokemons acting naturally without the command of any human being. Trainer battles or anyone instructing a pokemon doing specific actions, which includes contest and performance, IMO is really boring.

I won't deny that pokemons indeed have supernatural abilities that can be utilized in battles. However, that doesn't mean battle is the only place they can shine. I remembered reading an interview of Pokemon Movie, where the VA Ohtani Ikue mentioned Pokemon Anime doesn't really have a lot of episodes that focus on ecology of the pokemons species, dig deep into pokemons themselves such as portraying the likes and dislikes, strength and weakness and their way of life. When the anime put so most focus on battles, you can't blame audience on putting most of their focus on battles.

The anime is originated from the game, and the game concentrated so much on competitive battling. Yet, anime is its own thing separated from the game, no one insisted the anime producer(s) to have the anime focused on pokemon battles just like the game. The anime is now a 22-minute commercial used to promote the pokemon species, not merely promotion of the game. Then why not concentrate on the pokemon themselves instead of the pokemon battling? If it is focusing on the pokemon species themselves, Ash Ketchem and journey aspect is narrative-wise not that important at all.

 

[Matleo]

new generations and new kids come, we know it all, thats why it needs to be universal and sometimes revert back as a base
but why not make like with gen 3, then like gen II and maybe like in gen IV that new starts dont need to be boring or repeated...
Would be cool if Ash once got a fully evolved starter early like charizard and have problems with it more.
(for gen 8 the idea- but Incineroar looks like problems and there are no badges in Alola...)

 

[EscLucy]

Well with new generations and the interests of making money, that is why Ash stays the same age, has Pikachu, starts again in a new region etc. They have to think about marketing and money and they won't listen to the viewers at all. They've got their plans for what they want to do.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Well with new generations and the interests of making money, that is why Ash stays the same age, has Pikachu, starts again in a new region etc. They have to think about marketing and money and they won't listen to the viewers at all. They've got their plans for what they want to do.

They can keep marketing while making a good story, but they only care about marketing.

I see a lot of game stuff in Adventures yet it has a good plot.

 

[EscLucy]

Yes, I too have high hopes for Adventures. I need to catch up on the episodes!

 

[Hidden Mew]

Well with new generations and the interests of making money, that is why Ash stays the same age, has Pikachu, starts again in a new region etc. They have to think about marketing and money and they won't listen to the viewers at all. They've got their plans for what they want to do.

We're outside of the target demographic for the anime, so they wouldn't really listen to older fans to begin with. Plus, I do find the notion that the writers should listen to older fans a bit questionable. The writers don't make perfect decisions and there are plenty of things that I think could have been handled better through the different series, but fans don't have perfect ideas either. Stuff that we like or think would be really good may not appeal to the kids watching the show. I've seen this kind of fan entitlement for other shows, especially shows aimed at kids. Because the shows appeal to older fans outside of the target demographic, they think that they should be heard/catered to, which isn't really sound reasoning.

It's the idea that the show, as well as the franchise itself, would be so much better by listening to fans that just scream fan entitlement to me. I'm not saying fans can't complain or hope for some of their ideas to be used in the final product. I just think that there's a pretty big difference between saying "I don't like that A and B happened. I think it would have been better if C and D happened instead" and saying "The writers only care about money because A and B keep happening. They don't listen to fans because C and D never happen."

 

[Huikyeong]

Ohhh like Conway? That would be cool.

i'd love to see that. ill be honest, i loved that trick room battle because it was so brilliant

 

[EscLucy]

but fans don't have perfect ideas either

It wouldn't hurt to have a 'suggestion box' and then they can decide for themselves what ideas they actually like. I think you don't have to be in the target demographic for some things that just have to change e.g. allowing Cameron to have 5 Pokemon when it is against the rules lol.

But I see your point!

 

[Almonds]

We're outside of the target demographic for the anime, so they wouldn't really listen to older fans to begin with. Plus, I do find the notion that the writers should listen to older fans a bit questionable. The writers don't make perfect decisions and there are plenty of things that I think could have been handled better through the different series, but fans don't have perfect ideas either. Stuff that we like or think would be really good may not appeal to the kids watching the show. I've seen this kind of fan entitlement for other shows, especially shows aimed at kids. Because the shows appeal to older fans outside of the target demographic, they think that they should be heard/catered to, which isn't really sound reasoning.

It's the idea that the show, as well as the franchise itself, would be so much better by listening to fans that just scream fan entitlement to me. I'm not saying fans can't complain or hope for some of their ideas to be used in the final product. I just think that there's a pretty big difference between saying "I don't like that A and B happened. I think it would have been better if C and D happened instead" and saying "The writers only care about money because A and B keep happening. They don't listen to fans because C and D never happen."

GF did listen to fan demand and brought back Hoenn remakes through ORAS. And by the looks of it, GF seems to have a say in how the anime production is carried out (it has been speculated heavily that GF influenced the Kalos league outcome). Granted, it is just one example of them ever listening to fans - but that's the thing. They - GF, and the franchise overall - have listened to fans before, even if it was just once.

It's all a matter of how big the fan demand is. Like, 'Hoenn-Confirmed' levels of demand. Like, years-and-years-of-fans-all-over-the-world-pleading-and-causing-massive-memes-sprouting-up-every-now-and-then levels of fan demand.

And people talk about how 'they'll never listen to older fans' - but they continuously try to use nostalgia for extra cash. If they really didn't care about older fans, why would they have brought back Brock and Misty for certain episodes when the new generation of kids wouldn't really know about them. And before anyone says 'well, they can be curious about B&M for reasons' - at this time and age where Gen7 has been the main focus, I don't think there was a necessity to bring back B&M for the new audience. They're making money off the new cast just fine. B&M coming back was for the older fans. I don't know how high the fan demand actually was for B&M's appearance (cuz I don't like Misty), but if the anime thought it as an opportunity to market the episodes and make money out of it, then there must have been fan demand to an extent.

But back to the Ash-loss question; Is it confirmed that there's a league in the Alola anime? Because if they take ideas from the games, then it's possible that they could be hosting some tournament in the future and have Ash win to be the first ever league champ of the region. I kinda gave up on Ash winning a league after losing in Kalos (because everything was leading up to his victory and he lost because reasons), but if he has a chance to win again, then why not in a place where there's no champion at all.

 

[Hidden Mew]

It wouldn't hurt to have a 'suggestion box' and then they can decide for themselves what ideas they actually like. I think you don't have to be in the target demographic for some things that just have to change e.g. allowing Cameron to have 5 Pokemon when it is against the rules lol.

But I see your point!

If the writers did have a suggestion box, then it would be probably filled with ideas that couldn't possibly work for the anime. Most people would demand for Ash to be replaced, for the series to become more like the Adventures manga and/or for older characters to be brought back to the main cast. It wouldn't really benefit them and they don't have to cater to what older fans want in the first place.

GF did listen to fan demand and brought back Hoenn remakes through ORAS. And by the looks of it, GF seems to have a say in how the anime production is carried out (it has been speculated heavily that GF influenced the Kalos league outcome). Granted, it is just one example of them ever listening to fans - but that's the thing. They - GF, and the franchise overall - have listened to fans before, even if it was just once.

It's all a matter of how big the fan demand is. Like, 'Hoenn-Confirmed' levels of demand. Like, years-and-years-of-fans-all-over-the-world-pleading-and-causing-massive-memes-sprouting-up-every-now-and-then levels of fan demand.

That is a valid point about OR/AS. I forgot that they did seem to recognize the fan demand for those remakes, but I think that would have happened even if fans weren't upset that we didn't get Hoenn remakes during the fifth generation. Remakes have been successful in the past, it could introduce new fans to older titles and provide a way to market older Pokemon in a new way, especially with Mega Evolution and the Primal forms of the Legendary Pokemon. There was a lot of fan demand for those remakes, but I don't think that was the only or even the deciding factor in Game Freak making the games.

And people talk about how 'they'll never listen to older fans' - but they continuously try to use nostalgia for extra cash. If they really didn't care about older fans, why would they have brought back Brock and Misty for certain episodes when the new generation of kids wouldn't really know about them. And before anyone says 'well, they can be curious about B&M for reasons' - at this time and age where Gen7 has been the main focus, I don't think there was a necessity to bring back B&M for the new audience. They're making money off the new cast just fine. B&M coming back was for the older fans. I don't know how high the fan demand actually was for B&M's appearance (cuz I don't like Misty), but if the anime thought it as an opportunity to market the episodes and make money out of it, then there must have been fan demand to an extent.

I disagree that Misty and Brock coming back was just for the older fans. That was certainly a way to appeal to older fans, especially when Misty hadn't appeared outside of flashbacks and montages of Ash's friends in over a decade and those two episodes got quite a bit of hype from the promotional material, but it wasn't just to cater to older fans. It was to help celebrate the anime's 20th anniversary more than anything else. While the main focus has been on the seventh generation, the games and the show have emphasized Kanto quite a bit, so the idea that they'd go back there for a couple of episodes wasn't a huge stretch. And the episodes were mainly about having the new cast interact with Ash's old friends. They did throw in nods to the original series, but it wasn't exactly aimed at the people who grew up watching the original series either. People have wanted to see older characters like Misty and Brock for years, although I don't know if the demand was as high compared to the first few years after Misty was replaced, but I don't think that was a case of listening to fan demands. It was a case of making use of the anime's 20th anniversary to bring back older characters. It would appeal to older fans, but they were still primarily focused on the target audience during those episodes.

But back to the Ash-loss question; Is it confirmed that there's a league in the Alola anime? Because if they take ideas from the games, then it's possible that they could be hosting some tournament in the future and have Ash win to be the first ever league champ of the region. I kinda gave up on Ash winning a league after losing in Kalos (because everything was leading up to his victory and he lost because reasons), but if he has a chance to win again, then why not in a place where there's no champion at all.

Professor Kukui did mention how he wanted to bring the Pokemon League to Alola at the end of the Kanto field trip, so I assume that meant that they are eventually going to have an Alola League in SM. While the idea of Ash becoming the first Alola Champion sounds neat and would tie into the games pretty nicely, I'm not sure if I'd find that completely believable at this point. I don't think his skills have regressed, but I don't think his team is strong enough for him to get to that point. His Pokemon aren't weak, but they just don't battle as frequently compared to most of Ash's other teams since SM isn't too battle heavy. Maybe it could work if they have more battles during the rest of the series, but right now, it would kind of be a stretch. Ash doesn't even have a full team and Rowlet constantly falling asleep is played as a joke instead of a serious problem.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Ash will get Top 4 and maybe even that is generous.

Also, I still don't understand why someone thought Ash vs Cameron would be a good idea. Did 5-year olds like it?