The Fairy Type and Alterations to Type Chart

[Scarftail]

And another thing we didn't see, correct me if i'm mistaken, is Gardevoir level. Some of the battles actually present different level pokémon, a Lvl80 Noivern using Boomburst against Lvl50 Chespin for instance, it might be the case as for Gardevoir vs Hydreigon too, with the former being at lower level.

Well, all the same, just posted it here out of curiosity of seeing more opinions. People don't need to react sardonically towards every opinion they won't agree on. Just saying.

Cheers.

I guess I didn't take level into account and automatically assumed both were 50. And I'm not really mocking anybody. I wasn't disagreeing with any opinion, but rather laughing at what I thought was somebody stating a false claim. I guess they could be right. I can't really comprehend where those number values (16, 17, 32, 33, 34) come from.

 

[Vilendil]

Fairy Wind has a power of 34? What was the power of Fairy Wind in the calculations?

32, 33, and 34 comes from (initial damage x R/100), so I assumed that 34 is initial damage. Is the initial damage different from the power of the move?

And another thing we didn't see, correct me if i'm mistaken, is Gardevoir level. Some of the battles actually present different level pokémon, a Lvl80 Noivern using Boomburst against Lvl50 Chespin for instance, it might be the case as for Gardevoir vs Hydreigon too, with the former being at lower level.

Well, all the same, just posted it here out of curiosity of seeing more opinions. People don't need to react sardonically towards every opinion they won't agree on. Just saying.

Cheers.

I guess I didn't take level into account and automatically assumed both were 50. And I'm not really mocking anybody. I wasn't disagreeing with any opinion, but rather laughing at what I thought was somebody stating a false claim. I guess they could be right. I can't really comprehend where those number values (16, 17, 32, 33, 34) come from.

Well, this is my doubt too. I tried to reproduce the calcs using Base Power as if "Initial Damage" but it would't go right; only BP 40 would result in such values as 34 and I have no idea of how he got to 16 and 17.

It can be wrong after all. By the way, I'm not for or against Fairy being SE, neutral or NVE against Dark - I'm just dying of curiosity to know how fairy effectiveness will work. At the end of the day, we'll only know that when their good will decides to bring it up. --'

 

[LimitCrown]

Here is the damage formula from Bulbapedia.

EDIT: fixed

 

[Vilendil]

Here is the damage formula from Bulbapedia.

EDIT: fixed

I tried again to re-do the calculation - the Initial Damage is implicit in the formula he showed there. It's possible to obtain those values he presented (32, 33, 34) of initial damage with Gardevoir and Hydreigon at the same level 50 and neutral nature. 34 is possible with Gardevoir max Sp.At 177, and Hydreigon max Sp.Df 144 (due to EVs?). The Base power of Fairy Wind being 60.

I got 17, 18 for a Base Power 40 and Gardevoir at her lowers Neutral Sp.Atk and Hydreigon at her highest neutral Sp.Dfs. Couldn't get a "16" as he could, either for miscalculation or for he has used different levels. All rounded down a whole number.

Seems a possibility then.

I have a question for you guys used to playing metagame: Will 4x SE always OHKO?

 

[LimitCrown]

Although, if Dark-types are weak to fairy-types, then why?

I think that after you do all of the calculations, then that's when you round down the number. You don't round down the number after calculating initial damage + the random modifier. It might cause a small rounding error.

 

[Silktree]

I think that after you do all of the calculations, then that's when you round down the number. You don't round down the number after calculating initial damage + the random modifier. It might cause a small rounding error.

According to Smogon, the game rounds down the damage before each multiplication operation. That's why 100 damage is impossible assuming STAB and 2x effectiveness; 33 and 34 are just experimental numbers (for the initial damage before STAB and type effectiveness are taken into account) that show that the final damage is either lower than 100 or higher than it.

But I have my doubts that Smogon's notes are accurate. For one thing, the page says that the game makes sure that the damage is at least 1, and yet it is possible to inflict zero damage (as noted by Bulbapedia). Now, the way Bulbapedia writes down the damage formula suggests that the random multiplier is applied in the end, whereas Smogon claims that it is applied even before STAB. If Bulbapedia is correct, that means that 100 damage should be attainable even if Fairy is not super effective against Dark (regardless of any rounding down).

Just bear in mind that if Fairy is effective against Dark, then Fairy Wind's power can't be higher than 30 unless Gardevoir was deliberately put at a disadvantage (by giving it a lower level or increasing Hydreigon's Special Defense, which I highly doubt was the case).

 

[LimitCrown]

Does it matter whether the order of the multipliers changes? It gives the same result, so I wonder why Smogon says that (initial damage x random modifier) is rounded down before applying all other modifiers. The result may need to be rounded down again.

 

[Silktree]

Does it matter whether the order of the multipliers changes? It gives the same result, so I wonder why Smogon says that (initial damage x random modifier) is rounded down before applying all other modifiers. The result may need to be rounded down again.

The order does matter if the game rounds down the number after each operation.

 

[Meophist]

It's entirely possible XY has a different damage formula, even if it only changes where it rounds the numbers.

 

[LimitCrown]

It doesn't if the result is rounded down at the end. There are basically three situations for the rounding process.

 

[Silktree]

It doesn't if the result is rounded down at the end. There are basically three situations for the rounding process.

The point is that the order does matter under Smogon's assumption about the rounding. So either they're right on both counts (the rounding and the order), or they're wrong about at least one, rendering the calculation void.

I find it hard to believe that the damage calculation jumps from 98 to 102. That is hardly a flexible system.

 

[FaerieStar]

The latter implies the former.

"Being feared" does not imply "being considered evil". People that fear bees rarely consider them evil, for instance.

No, the implication comes from support from other data.

No. The implication only makes sense if you assume that the dark type is about literal darkness. You can assume that the dark type is about literal darkness based on support from other data, but you have to assume it.

The reason why specific ratios associated with the dark type in the game of pokémon is not relevant is because pokémon is not somehow completely removed from outside reference and background knowledge. If you just count something outside of qualitative context you will make category mistakes and other errors.

Generalisations are made when there's a substantial quantity of some quality. I never say the qualitative aspect were irrelevant. You need something to quantify. You DID say that quantity is irrelevant, though.

That doesn't seem to be the way it is interpreted in Umbreon's case.

Uh? They evolve from exposure to moonlight. What is wrong with my interpretation? I already know it's not the way you interpret it.

Espeon's design as a counterpart to Umbreon is certainly the reason why it is associated with sunlight.

No, both evolutions evolve how they do to showcase the new features included in gold and silver (happiness and the time of the day). They associated Espeon to the Sun and Umbreon with the Moon.

You can't find any connections between psychic and the sun in generation I, before the dark type was introduced.

Not with the sun, maybe, but certainly I can find connections between psychic and light.

Nor is psychism in other media generally associated with the sun or light.

I don't see how this matters.

Yeah, so?

So angels are not always good. o.o


@Grass Type Warrior Angels having rebelled against the Holy One does prove that angels can be bad. They were angels when they rebelled, even if they're not considered angels anymore (which they are or not depending on the version). All of the angels were supossed to be good-aligned at the beginning.

You could still make angels represent goodness in Pokémon, I agree. But you could also make the faeries represent goodness. That's why I think that the morality of faes and angels in real life myths doesn't really matters that much.

Angels are told to be ill-equipped, yeah xD They are also told to lack free will. But then you have Lucifer and the Nephilim. Judaism is a very old religion and its myths have been spread all over the world through Christianity and Islam... so yeah, expect to find contradictions and different versions of the same myths.

Just bear in mind that if Fairy is effective against Dark, then Fairy Wind's power can't be higher than 30 unless Gardevoir was deliberately put at a disadvantage (by giving it a lower level or increasing Hydreigon's Special Defense, which I highly doubt was the case).

I think it might actually be possible that they made something like that just to keep people from knowing that faerie is SE agaist dark (if it were). This would deny the rumors and keep people discussing about pokémon. I've found them very serious with the Hype this generation.
Of course, maybe faerie just isn't SE against dark.

 

[LimitCrown]

It doesn't if the result is rounded down at the end. There are basically three situations for the rounding process.

The point is that the order does matter under Smogon's assumption about the rounding. So either they're right on both counts (the rounding and the order), or they're wrong about at least one, rendering the calculation void.

That is what I meant. Either one of the websites is correct and there is a discrepancy, or there is a different calculation algorithm.

 

[Betnaiser]

Any of you guys think that dragon is weak againts fairy type is just stupid?

 

[LimitCrown]

Not really. It is reasonable to me.

 

[Betnaiser]

It feels like they selling fairy type too much, and dragon type is good because they have only 2 weakness

 

[Lufenium]

We've only seen the Fairy-type in one trailer so far; we know little about it. They're hardly 'selling' it at all, really.

We also currently only know 5 Fairy-type Pokemon, 3 of which are older Pokemon gaining Fairy as a secondary type.

 

[Team Gaara]

Any of you guys think that dragon is weak againts fairy type is just stupid?

You do know that the whole reason for the Fairy-type was to make Dragon-types less overpowered, right?

 

[Sadrina]

Hmm, not sure if this has been mentioned already somewhere because, you know, 167 Pages is a lot to check through just to make sure no one's said something before, but I think that the general thoughts on Fairy-types are mislead. My assumption is Nintendo is going to go the direction of all mythical creatures aside from dragons, especially because the region is based on Europe, which is known for its fairy tails. For example, I predict something being based on a troll or goblin which would be Fairy-Poison or Fairy-Dark. So, my apologies if someone already mentioned that thought process.

 

[GiraFragMich]

I thought about something else: Kanto has no native Dark-types, do you think Sinnoh won't have any native Fairy-types?