What's wrong with thinking you're right?

[Jo-Jo]

I've ranted about this topic plenty of times, but never made a thread about it. So... here it is! This is something that's puzzled me ever since I joined my first fandom; IMO it's a subject worth discussing.

In all the time I've been reading shipping forums and taking part in debates, a prevailant attitude keeps cropping up, over and over. It seems that in fandoms, there is a kind of tacit, wide-spread agreement that all ships are absolutely equal in all respects, all ships have an equal shot at becoming canon, and to say otherwise, or worse, act as though one particular ship is inevitable, is a tremendous breach of good manners. People who do this are smug, arrogant, self-righteous, tactless, unkind and generally insufferable. This is accepted as truth pretty much everywhere. My question is - why?

You see, in order to subscribe to this view, it seems to me that you'd first have to accept as fact some things that I consider flat-out crazy. Firstly, and most notably, that figuring out the pairings in Pokemon is in some way difficult. That no intelligent person could possibly know whether the writers meant for Misty to be Ash's love interest, or Gary, or nobody. All the shippers can gather their hints, of course, but none of them really mean anything, because the writers can always surprise us. Assume nothing! Expect the unexpected! And so on.

I'm probably about to offend a lot of people, but I find that view COMPLETELY BONKERS. I think it is LUDICROUS to suggest that there could be any ambiguity on this subject. Pokemon is not a complex anime. It is aimed at children of a young age-group. None of its themes, plotlines or characterisation points are hard to follow or predict; just look at how many people knew immediately that

Spoiler

Ash would lose to Tetsuya in the Hoenn League. They guessed this as soon as Tetsuya was introduced. Most of them never had any doubts about their theory (although I gather a great number would have preferred to be proven wrong).

It was a total no-brainer to work out that

Spoiler

May would defeat Harley in the Grand Festival - and once that was known, it became easy to see her loss to Drew coming, too.

And yet, so many people genuinely think it's meant to be a mystery who Ash and May are going to end up with? I don't get it.

I cannot remember an occasion when I didn't spot well ahead of time who was going to fall in love with who in a book, TV show or movie. I didn't sit through Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back wondering whether Leia was going to pick Han or Luke. Nobody exclaims while reading 'Emma', "Woah, she loves Mr. Knightley?? I never saw that one coming!". The Willow/Tara revelation in Buffy The Vampire Slayer prompted no surprise from me whatsoever.

Does anyone think Pokemon is more complicated than Star Wars or Buffy? Or, God forbid, Jane Austen? Are its romances more subtle, its twists more ingenious? No? Me neither. So why is figuring out who May fancies an intense intellectual exercise beyond the wit of man?

The second common belief that gets a "WTF?" from me is the idea that being too confident in your shipping predictions is mean. "Can't you see you're depressing all the people who see different ships?" the naysayers cry. I say the people who see different ships ought to develop thicker skins, but more importantly, I wonder who these people are to say that I can't have an opinion, and argue it, too. When people say that they believe

Spoiler

May will catch an Arcanine, nobody lashes out and tells them to STFU and leave all of the May-won't-catch-an-Arcanine and May-will-catch-a-Growlithe-instead supporters alone. If you ask, "what Pokemon do you think Ash'll use to beat the last Frontier Brain and win the Battle Frontier?" people will answer you calmly and politely and never once say things like, "oh, so you think you're psychic, huh? No-one's ever said that Ash will beat the last Brain. Why don't you go away and get back to reading your smutty 'Ash wins the Battle Frontier' fics like normal people?"

But when it comes to shipping, the message is clear: butt out and let everyone else have hope/faith/whatever that their beloved OTPs have a shot at being canon.

Personally, I find that a little bit disturbing. What it boils down to is telling people that it's OK to misinterpret the series. That their duty is not to search for evidence and form a hypothesis that makes sense, but rather to latch onto an emotional preference that could have been formed by nothing more substantial than an impression that two characters "look so cuuuuuute together! <3<3<3", and then stubbornly bend the evidence into supporting this preferred theory, ignoring anything that contradicts it. All in the name of ship loyalty, of course. In my experience, shockingly few shippers are actually interested in identifying which romance threads the writers have set up between the characters. The consensus seems to be, "if you don't like what you see and it is at all possible to rationalise it away, do it and claim the other side's delusional".

I'm not trying to say for a minute that everyone should abandon their fanon ships, btw. I needs my Tension/Queer/Gymshipping, I do. But I really have a problem with people who refuse to see that their ship is fanon, and blind themselves to the writers' true - crystal clear - intentions.

So, that's my rant. Anyone want to explain this fandom mindset to me/prove that I'm 100% wrong/flame me? I'd be happy to have a good discussion.


- Jo-Jo, who isn't at all sure she won't get fandom_wanked for this...

 

[Misty]

The problem isn't people who see their ship as true - everyone does. The problem is people who force their beliefs down the throats of other people. Like "Ash will get with Misty and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong", and then they go and flame people who support, say, AdvanceShipping. I don't know what - or who - you've been reading, but all I can say is that I think you may be misinterpreting things.

 

[Barb]

It seems that in fandoms, there is a kind of tacit, wide-spread agreement that all ships are absolutely equal in all respects, all ships have an equal shot at becoming canon, and to say otherwise, or worse, act as though one particular ship is inevitable, is a tremendous breach of good manners. People who do this are smug, arrogant, self-righteous, tactless, unkind and generally insufferable.

I think you just described every Harry/Hermione shipper in the HP fandom.

I agree on the second point: all ships have a chance of becoming canon. That's what fuels many of the shipping debates. However, I don't believe all ships are equal. Some ships are decidedly one-sided (Brock and any Nurse Joy, for example) and that, to me, carries less weight than a canon requited ship (like Florinda and Potter).

 

[Jo-Jo]

The problem I see is that shipping is such a needlessly touchy subject that everyone feels the need to walk on eggshells around it. So in an attempt to stop the flaming, we end up in a situation where nobody's allowed to state anything about where the romances are going, even self-evident stuff. I mean, if somebody says that the writers are setting up an Ash/Misty romance, and you disagree with them and argue against them, that's OK. But if they say that and the automatic response from everyone else is to come down on them for presuming to know too much, that's a different thing. I think that we ought to have a very good idea by now who Ash is going to end up with, if anyone.

(edited to reply to Barb

I think you just described every Harry/Hermione shipper in the HP fandom.

Hehe. This essay was partly influenced by HP fandom. Luckily my side got proven right and now we can say this kind of stuff freely.

I agree on the second point: all ships have a chance of becoming canon. That's what fuels many of the shipping debates. However, I don't believe all ships are equal. Some ships are decidedly one-sided (Brock and any Nurse Joy, for example) and that, to me, carries less weight than a canon requited ship (like Florinda and Potter).

Yeah, that's the thing. All ships are technically possible, even if the probability is only 0.0001% or whatever. But they're not all likely. And I think it's generally clear as glass which ones the writers are angling for. Figuring out authorial intent in this show sure ain't hard.

 

[Barb]

Some shippers are hugely possessive of their chosen ship. Just like some people in real life are hypersensitive about many things, while others just go with the flow and don't get easily offended.

Also, the writers can throw curves when it comes to who ends up with who. We might think it's Misty now but it could be someone else in a couple of seasons, depending on what story arc they have planned out. Didn't Digimon have a couple that everyone assumed was going to end up together, but in the end, they didn't?

 

[Misty]

Digimon has a better plot.

Pokemon tends to put everything out in the open. I think the only worthwhile plot twist Pokemon has ever given us was Misty leaving and being replaced by May/Max.

 

[Jo-Jo]

Oh, I know the writers can change their minds and pull pairings out of nowhere. Digimon is a good example. But that doesn't suddenly make predicting final couples impossible. With a few exceptions, the ships that come true are the ships that have been built up. And if a show builds up a ship, then switches randomly to another, that doesn't suddenly invalidate the first ship - it just makes it 'past canon' as opposed to 'current canon'. Like Buffy/Riley or Tai/Sora.

For the record, I think that Ash/Misty is past canon, and Misty/Tracey current canon.

 

[Cybersai]

While the basic plot of Pokemon may be predictable, the shippings in Pokemon certainly aren't.

As said above, who would have ever thought that Misty would be taken off the show and end up spending time with Tracey in the Hosos? Back in the Orange Islands and Johto, I don't think anyone ever saw this coming. Everyone expected Ash and Misty to stay and travel together for the entire series, and look what happened.

I still say, any ship regarding Ash in particular is up in the air. It can really go any way, and "hints" really mean nothing in the long run. If the writers have a sudden change of heart, they can have Ash get paired up with a new girl in the snap of a finger, and ignore all the Pokeshipping hints in the past.

The characters only go as far as the writers take them. And if the writers want to give up the idea for an old Ash pairing and bring in a new one, they can do it instantly. Any hints can be rendered null and void instantly if the writers choose to do so.

Just because one ship had a lot of hints at a time, doesn't mean that that particular ship will automatically become canon in the long run.

When it comes to shipping, everything is up in the air.

 

[Jo-Jo]

I know, and my argument was not that the ships I see happening now are inevitable and destined to happen in the end. Obviously Pokemon, being a TV show, is quite capable of developing one ship for a while, only to drop it later. I believe that they have so far done this with two ships: Rocketshipping and Pokeshipping. However, that's a whole different story to saying that it is impossible to know which ships are being written at the present. For example, I think it is clear that there is a Contestshipping subplot in canon right now. This does not guarantee that it will still exist in five years time, but for now, I consider it canon.

 

[Barb]

What's clear to you may not be clear to anyone else. Scott85 has a good point about how one interprets the two characters interacting with each other. What is a solid hint to one person may be dismissed by another.

 

[Jo-Jo]

Which I guess leads right back into my original argument. lol. Why don't people agree? Leaving aside for a moment the issue of who's really right, why would there need to be a divide on a matter like this? Surely it ought to be self-evident whether or not May and Drew's relationship has a romantic element? Like I said, shipping is not hard. We shouldn't need to have arguments over it.

 

[Cybersai]

Which I guess leads right back into my original argument. lol. Why don't people agree?

Eh, because some people like some pairings more than others regardless of hints?

With hints set aside, and just the characters in general, why would everyone want the same two characters together? People have different tastes.

Unless a ship is made canon where it absolutely CAN'T be argued (such as two characters sharing a romantic kiss), then everything else can be disagreeable.

 

[Sabonea]

I have to agree with Jo-Jo on this one, in most cases the writers make it blatently obvious when two characters like each other. This is pokemon, not some angsty teen drama.

I have no problem whatsoever with people liking certain pairings. But there are a *LOT* of shippers out there who read so much into things when trying to justify that their ship is canon;it's pathetic. I highly doubt the writers put as much thought into the show as some shippers do

 

[Jo-Jo]

Eh, because some people like some pairings more than others regardless of hints?

But what has that got to do with figuring out which ships the writers are writing? It makes no difference to the series if Random Shipper A decides that s/he doesn't like May/Drew. That's his or her prerogative. But it shouldn't interfere with their ability to see where the show is going. If May and Drew have romantic tension, then everybody ought to be able to acknowledge that, even if they loathe the ship. Similarly, if there's nothing between them, then the Contestshippers ought to realise that they're sailing on a fanon ship. The fact that there is a divide over the issue is one in a long list of Things I Don't Understand About Fandom.

Unless a ship is made canon where it absolutely CAN'T be argued (such as two characters sharing a romantic kiss), then everything else can be disagreeable.

Sorry, but I disagree completely. It is usually obvious who is going to get together with who ages in advance of them actually doing so. In fact, a typical love plotline depends on being guessable prior to the conclusion. That's because the point of watching such stories is to see how the pair gets together. Logically, if you're only 'allowed' to see the ship after it's already been written, you've already missed out on all the fun.

 

[Barb]

That's his or her prerogative. But it shouldn't interfere with their ability to see where the show is going.

Sometimes it does, though. People support ships that have little to no evidence at all simply because they like the pairing itself. It doesn't matter what direction the writers are taking the character. A person could support Character X and Character Y because they like the idea of them together but the writers actually have Character X moving closer to being in a relationship with Character Z.

And Sabonea is right about Pokémon not being an angsty teen drama. It's a show aimed at a much younger audience, which may mean that *no* shipping happens at all. The target audience for the show probably has more than a few fans who are still in the "boys/girls are gross" stage of emotional development.

 

[Cybersai]

. If May and Drew have romantic tension, then everybody ought to be able to acknowledge that, even if they loathe the ship. Similarly, if there's nothing between them, than the Contestshippers ought to realise that they're sailing on a fanon ship.

And that's exactly why you have oppossing sides. Some people see May/Drew having romantic tension and others just see it as rivalry for her contests.

It's based on your real life personality how you interpet things. If people see more into May/Drew then there really is, that is their issue.

 

[Jo-Jo]

That's his or her prerogative. But it shouldn't interfere with their ability to see where the show is going.

Sometimes it does, though.

Yeah, but it shouldn't. Anyone can figure out where this show is going if they just look at it objectively. And shipping is one of the simplest, most clear-cut areas of the show. There really is no excuse for letting one's wishes get in the way of interpreting something so banal and obvious as which characters are into each other.

People support ships that have little to no evidence at all simply because they like the pairing itself. It doesn't matter what direction the writers are taking the character. A person could support Character X and Character Y because they like the idea of them together but the writers actually have Character X moving closer to being in a relationship with Character Z.

I know, and I HATE that. lol. It's such a bad way to interpret the series. There's nothing wrong with liking off the wall pairings, but becoming convinced that they're going to happen... Besides all else, I think it's a very self-absorbed way to look at things. It's kind of like saying, "this series exists to pander to me, and if I like a relationship then it's going to happen, dammit, and if a relationship I don't like happens instead, I'm going to throw a tantrum and say that the writers are hacks". Exaggeration, for the most part, but still...

And Sabonea is right about Pokémon not being an angsty teen drama. It's a show aimed at a much younger audience, which may mean that *no* shipping happens at all.

It may mean that. But my point is, we should all know. "Shipping is not hard." Haha, that's going to be my personal motto from now on.

And that's exactly why you have oppossing sides. Some people see May/Drew having romantic tension and others just see it as rivalry for her contests.

And one side is wrong. Rather drastically so. And the sole reason they are wrong is that they deluded themselves into believing something contrary to the evidence, because they were determined to see what they wanted to see. Yeah, that kind of thing is one of my BIG pet peeves. Heh.

It's based on your real life personality how you interpet things. If people see more into May/Drew then there really is, that is their issue.

Yup, it is their issue. And if the antis are wrong, then it's their issue. But the fact that the issue exists proves that one side, whichever it is, is being rather stupid.

 

[Cybersai]

And one side is wrong. Rather drastically so. And the sole reason they are wrong is that they deluded themselves into believing something contrary to the evidence, because they were determined to see what they wanted to see.

So you're saying anyone who doesn't see anything going for Contestshipping (in this case) is wrong and deluded?

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. There's nothing THAT blatant between May/Drew that shows us that the writers plan to bring them together. There may be something between them yes, but I don't think it's right to call someone "deluded" just because they don't see anything shipping wise between these two characters.

Sounds to me like you just made this thread in order to try and explain to people that anyone who doesn't see anything in contestshipping is wrong and ignorant, and that's not very comforting to say the least. :/

 

[Barb]

The key word in Jo-Jo's last post is objectively. Many people allow their personal biases and prejudices to cloud their thinking, and this applies to areas other than shipping. It's seen quite a bit in shipping, too. They might be wrong, and even know they're wrong but they--excuse the pun--won't give up the ship.

 

[Jo-Jo]

So you're saying anyone who doesn't see anything going for Contestshipping (in this case) is wrong and deluded?

IF the writers are writing Contestshipping, then I think that anybody who fails to pick up on that is at best rather poor at interpreting romantic foreshadowing, and at worst has deluded themselves into thinking that May and Drew don't like each other just because they don't like the ship.

Similarly, IF the writers are not writing Contestshipping, then anyone who reads shippiness into May and Drew's relationship is at best rather poor at telling the difference between romantic and non-romantic interactions, and at worst has deluded themselves into thinking that May and Drew like each other because they like the ship.

Obviously I have my opinion on which one is true, but it's not really important at the moment. The point stands that it ought to be clear whether May and Drew are being paired up by the writers or not, and the fact that so many people disagree which it is is strange to me.

I do not believe that everybody in the fandom who gets a ship wrong is stupid. I think that fandoms encourage people to buy into the perception that it's rude and unkind to crush the poor ickle shippers' hopes by telling them that their pairing will never happen. People tend not to want to go against social expectations, and since the social code in the fandom at large says that it is unacceptable to have confidence in a ship, most people end up following that.

Sounds to me like you just made this thread in order to try and explain to people that anyone who doesn't see anything in contestshipping is wrong and ignorant, and that's not very comforting to say the least. :/

Do you see a single mention of Contestshipping in my original post? The essay was intended as a general thought exercise. I save my Contestshipping-is-canon-raaaar moods for the debate thread on Serebii. We can discuss a different pairing if you like, although like I said, I didn't intend for the argument to go into specific ships indepth.