Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

[Cybersai]

I'd like to see Ash go because as an Ash fan (or I used to be) I don't like what he has been degraded to. Ash's character ended in DP. What we're watching now is an alternate universe take on his Kanto era personality.

If this was a reboot it'd be acceptable but the original story didn't end yet.

 

[Akuraito]

I'd like to see Ash go because as an Ash fan (or I used to be) I don't like what he has been degraded to.

I have to agree. I liked Ash most in the first 3 seasons, but now he's really... yeah. At least, from what I've seen of BW. *shrug*

 

[Cybersai]

Which is why it's better for characters to go when they're still enjoyable than to watch them get worse as the years go by. I wouldn't have mind at all if DP was Ash's last saga.

 

[Akuraito]

Which is why it's better for characters to go when they're still enjoyable than to watch them get worse as the years go by. I wouldn't have mind at all if DP was Ash's last saga.

But isn't it possible for the writers to, well, undegrade him? Most humor today for children is the main character acting stupid (hello, spongebob), which was in the Elesa episode, right? If children preferred actual humor, than the writers wouldn't have to stoop so low for kids to like it.
Meh.
The writers, if willing, could still make Ash's character good and non-boring, right?

 

[Spindae2]

I don't know what i dislike more about ash his design and character or what a useless trainer he is!
Changing the Main boy from gen to gen I don't believe in! But after 15 years it's time!
Time for a new boy travels through the regions and collects badges and fails to achieve anything!
In my opinion Ash should travel one more time through Kanto and win the league and finish with his quest!

 

[Caseydia]

I didn't mind the kiddish outfit, the extra Pokemon, the age factor or the fact that Pikachu is still a magnet sucker. But I didn't like how they made him into a novice again. I mean we went from someone who was about to win a league against a bunch of legendaries to someone who seems like he's just starting out. They didn't have to do that to make Ash funny or enjoyable. I don't think he should be replaced but I don't think they should have replaced his brain.

 

[Cybersai]

I'd like to see Ash gone after BW. I am so disinterested in Ash this gen, I can't imagine what the next one would be like.

- Also his rivals are getting worse. I knew the writers could never top Paul but what they gave us as a replacement is just sad. Between Gary and Paul Ash struggled in two different ways, and if Trip is the future then count me out.

- His travel companions are constantly replaced, so keeping Ash around with an all new cast seems pointless. Just think, Iris and Cilan could have not been tied to Ash at all, but a new hero, and we wouldn't think of them as Ash's friends. What difference would it make if Iris/Cilan were interacting with someone new?

- His older pokemon are rarely seen or used anymore.

- Ash now has 40 Gym badges, I have no desire to see him get 200.

- Ash has 750 episodes under his belt, I don't need to see 1000.

- Most of the fanbase will never get to see his whole journey. Since the show has gone on so long, most people have come in and out of the show never seeing every saga in full.

- Kids growing up with the show today do not know the history of the series, so to them it won't matter.

 

[Aestivate]

...Is it just me, or does my last post seem non-point adressing? o_o
...Too lazy to fix it at the moment...

Typically if moderators feel the need, they will inform members whether or not they think a post is addressing the topic or not. Your first post does, this one does not. Please make sure that your posts have something to add to the thread by means of discussion or how the conversation is flowing. Thanks!

 

[Caseydia]

I'd like to see Ash gone after BW. I am so disinterested in Ash this gen, I can't imagine what the next one would be like.

- Also his rivals are getting worse. I knew the writers could never top Paul but what they gave us as a replacement is just sad. Between Gary and Paul Ash struggled in two different ways, and if Trip is the future then count me out.

- His travel companions are constantly replaced, so keeping Ash around with an all new cast seems pointless. Just think, Iris and Cilan could have not been tied to Ash at all, but a new hero, and we wouldn't think of them as Ash's friends. What difference would it make if Iris/Cilan were interacting with someone new?

- His older pokemon are rarely seen or used anymore.

- Ash now has 40 Gym badges, I have no desire to see him get 200.

- Ash has 750 episodes under his belt, I don't need to see 1000.

- Most of the fanbase will never get to see his whole journey. Since the show has gone on so long, most people have come in and out of the show never seeing every saga in full.

- Kids growing up with the show today do not know the history of the series, so to them it won't matter.

Um, you do know that with the whole fan based thing, kids are now going back to watch all the episodes online right? I know it's hard on the head but the writers probably thought to kepp Ash since they've always had him. I know people might argue about him being dumb and being replaced by older characters, but they wanted to make BW more appealing to the younger cast again. I guess they couldn't care less about us older ones. But replacing him now seems pointless because we're almost at the last two gyms. Anything after that means that they might keep him just to show that he's growing up again. It's an endless cyle of the same crap. But there are some people who loves Ash just for Ash like me.

 

[nattfly]

Why would they go through the hassle of creating a new lead for the anime when they already have one? As been said before the series is directed at a younger audience, which makes it logical for the main lead to be the same age. Easier for the kids watching to relate. Getting rid of Pikachu in the anime would be a really stupid marketing move too, which is what would happen if they got rid of Ash. Using a 1st gen pokemon for 2-6th gen lead wouldn't makes sense even to kids.
The series IS build up with Ash and Pikachu at it's center and any other character is replaceble because they are not at it's center. Even Misty and Brock counted as side characters from the very beginning.
So scrapping a perfectly funtional main lead of the series and go through all the the work of making a new one (and when a whole series centers around that one character there is A LOT of work) is not the time and money saving way to go.
Ash and his gym-quest has worked for the last 15 years and they will keep him until it doesn't work anymore. That's the way it is.
Even if Ash and his gymbadges are old news to us, they're fresh news to the target audience.


EDIT: Man do I sound cynical --;

 

[Cybersai]

How is it a lot of work for a new lead when they swap the characters every gen?

 

[Akuraito]

How is it a lot of work for a new lead when they swap the characters every gen?

New voice actors, new backstory, new Pokemon for said new lead, new characters, have to make closure for the last main char., etc...

 

[nattfly]

New voice actors, new backstory, new Pokemon for said new lead, new characters, have to make closure for the last main char., etc...

Plus adding a few new side characters are easier since all the groundwork is already done. Just slap them on to the board beside Ash and call it a day.

 

[Cybersai]

How is it a lot of work for a new lead when they swap the characters every gen?

New voice actors, new backstory, new Pokemon for said new lead, new characters, have to make closure for the last main char., etc...

Which they already do for every new main character.

 

[Piplup]

I'd like to see Ash go because as an Ash fan (or I used to be) I don't like what he has been degraded to. Ash's character ended in DP. What we're watching now is an alternate universe take on his Kanto era personality.

Eh... no... while I'm not so happy with how BW did things, Ash is not nearly as "stupid" as he was in the original series... I can see why people say he doesn't seem as good as his DP self, but let's not exaggerate and compare him to his Kanto self... he's still kind of mature compared to his Kanto self and he's also better battles wise compared to his Kanto self...

If this was a reboot it'd be acceptable but the original story didn't end yet.

This is the problem though, you (and lots of others) expect an ending to a never ending story
People should enjoy the Pokémon anime for what it is - a never ending story that you're not supposed to overanalyze but just to relax, watch and enjoy
If one can't do that and only forces himself to watch just for the sake of watching it until it "ends", then this person should just give up, stop watching it and stop caring what's happening with it, because so far there's no reason to believe that this show (or Ash's character) will ever reach a real ending

I also always found it kind of ridiculous to dream of an "ending"... like, what will happen? there won't be anything special in the supposed ending, seriously...
We'll probably just see Ash win a League or a Champion or something (which really, while may be cool, is not really something THAAAAT exciting or special...) and then we'll see Ash and Pikachu run off while the narrator say they're going on a new adventure in a new region that we'll... never get to see... the end...
Ew, I'd never want that...
It's a show that you should enjoy for what it is or just not watch it, really... an ending would be so bad... =\

I have to agree. I liked Ash most in the first 3 seasons, but now he's really... yeah. At least, from what I've seen of BW. *shrug*

Did you watch AG-DP? Ash was at his best in these series, both personality wise and battles wise... and for DP rival wise too...

Which is why it's better for characters to go when they're still enjoyable than to watch them get worse as the years go by. I wouldn't have mind at all if DP was Ash's last saga.

I think Ash is still enjoyable, even in BW...
Also, I rather stick to characters rather than have their story randomly cut in the middle of it like with Dawn and May (well, they got some kind of conclusion, so it wasn't THAT bad, but it's still annoying to know their journey continues and we can't see it)

But after 15 years it's time!

No, if anything, 15 years is why he'll stay, not why he'll get replaced...
If he were to be replaced it'd happen by now, long before we reached 15 years

I'd like to see Ash gone after BW. I am so disinterested in Ash this gen, I can't imagine what the next one would be like.

Things could change to the better, like Ash slowly getting more like his AG-DP self... which will probably start to happen once his team will get better and after we'll reach the second saga of BW series...
BW is really like the "Kanto-Johto" remake... BW games were totally "fresh" and tried to repeat gen 1, now we get sequel games which is what GSC were supposed to be... maybe the BW series is a repeat of the original series, and then with gen 6 we'll get games more like RSE/DPt and an anime series that will be more like AG/DP
(not that I'm trying to make a pattern here, but I can see things going this way)

- Also his rivals are getting worse. I knew the writers could never top Paul but what they gave us as a replacement is just sad. Between Gary and Paul Ash struggled in two different ways, and if Trip is the future then count me out.

Well, they can always do better next gen... original series had Gary and AG series had no rival at all for him... DP then surprised with the awesomeness of Paul and Barry... maybe gen 6 will surprise us again

- His travel companions are constantly replaced, so keeping Ash around with an all new cast seems pointless. Just think, Iris and Cilan could have not been tied to Ash at all, but a new hero, and we wouldn't think of them as Ash's friends. What difference would it make if Iris/Cilan were interacting with someone new?

You can ask that about any of the previous friends he had, even including Misty and Brock... yes, they could be with someone else instead of Ash, so?... it doesn't mean anything

- His older pokemon are rarely seen or used anymore.

Using a brand new hero wouldn't change anything then, since he'd just use his newly caught team similary to what Ash is doing right now... at least when Ash is still around we can see some of his older ones once in a Jirachi... a new hero wouldn't solve this problem, it'd just make it worse...

- Ash now has 40 Gym badges, I have no desire to see him get 200.

It's totally in character for Ash to want even more than 200, which he'll probably achieve in the future XD

- Ash has 750 episodes under his belt, I don't need to see 1000.

This is partly why he'll never leave, you don't replace the main star of a TV show after 750 eps
Try to name ONE show that did it...

- Most of the fanbase will never get to see his whole journey. Since the show has gone on so long, most people have come in and out of the show never seeing every saga in full.

- Kids growing up with the show today do not know the history of the series, so to them it won't matter.

So?... it isn't a must to know the past of the show and as you said yourself most of kids don'y really care and it wouldn't matter for them either way - so why bother? things worked good enough by now to last 15 years, they really have no reason to make drastic changes NOW after all this time...

New voice actors, new backstory, new Pokemon for said new lead, new characters, have to make closure for the last main char., etc...

They get new VAs anyway
Main characters in this show barely have much a of "backstory" and it isn't THAT hard to come up with one anyway
New Pokémon? a supposed new main star will probably get exactly the same Pokémon Ash would get
New characters? we're getting them anyway
Closure for last star? They did it with May and Dawn already... this is partly why I don't understand people who want Ash to leave - he'll just go on to a new adventure which we'll never get to see =\
But really, all these things about how "hard" it is to make a new star is pretty ridiculous...
They can easily start a brand new series without Ash if they only wanted to - but I doubt they'll ever want that

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Im not even sure from where people get impression that Ash is going to be treated like he was in Unova, in future generations from now on? One region doesn't make pattern and if your going to use Unova as indication how will writers treat Ash from now , than we should use DP and AG as indicators as well with writers clearly proving how they are more than enough capable of handling his character correctly providing good growth.

Furthermore, if that's true that's even more of a reason why Ash shouldn't be replaced. If his replacement is going to be regressed and stuck in never ending limbo not growing, whats the point of replacing Ash character than? To watch clone never growing?

Besides whole reason why Ash was regressed to certain extent in BW in first place was only to better portray new start for which writers intended to go with BW reflecting games revamp through anime. For same reason there were no older pokemon, Brock left, TR got retooled along with girls becoming sidekicks again.

Fact that continuation of games, BW 2 is filled with pokemon from previous generations should tell us how lack of continuity and reference to past regions was only temporary ,being done for purposes of portrayal of Unova as isolated and foreign region.

By end of 5th gen i could easily see Ash regaining all of past experience, with writers taking him forward.

Argument how writers did everything they could with Ash, being time for him to go is completely fallacious, because there doesn't exist limit in how much writer can develop character. They are the ones which gives life to characters, depending solely on them when its time to stop.

Just because someone journey goes fir long time, doesn't mean how pokemon is anime without ending. Finale wont escape anywhere and if we watched Ash fir 15 years, it doesn't matter if writers close him down nor or after couple of more years.

They can, definitely having knowledge and capability of renewing characters making them enjoyable again doing things right. But some people tend to ignore this.

Personally i would rather have Ash stayed with writers getting him back on right road, doing new things with already experienced and established character pursuing bigger and better things. Instead of getting cheap version which starts out as dumb rookie basically watching rehash of story through which Ash went in early days not bringing anything new on table. I want to follow characters taken forward with writers doing sequel with them, instead of watching rerun of what we already saw.

...or have the series end when he leaves.

Actually, take that back. :/ I would be okay if it focused on a different already-made character, such as Misty or May or whoever. If it's someone completely new, my original post applies.

Agreed. This would be great idea with return of older characters like Misty or May being refreshing and unexpected twist in pokemon , and it would be interesting to see them taken in new directions, getting more focus and development. They proved to be successful and popular and i would welcome this for a change, instead of constantly getting new inferior versions.

Thats why im in favor for Ash staying not seeing point to get rid of character with who it can be done a lot more, just to get new one which wont bring anything which Ash already as character can't. Its more fun to me following ačlready established chracter growing forward gaining more substance with sequel being made, instead of following rehash of what we already saw before with new one.

But Brock was here almost as long and only missed Orange Islands.

The problem is Ash has no further growth to go through and if they want to do a new series they might as well go for a clean slate.

Difference between this is same like difference between sky and earth. Brock was supporting character, which while lasting long was never nearly as much important like Ash is. Brock isn't driving force of pokemon, anime isn't centralized around him, he isn't main face of tv show nor he has such marketing value bringing money and attracting new generations of kids toward pokemon. He also doesn't have Pikachu(main mascot of entire franchise) as his pokemon not being iconic, popular and integral to pokemon like Ash is.

Also, Ash definitely has potential to grow more. He never won league, never challenged E4 and won match against them, never came close toward his goal of becoming pokemon master still being far away etc. Easy defeats against champions, high leveled trainers or elite members in DP served as proof how he still doesn't have what it takes to stand up to high level trainers which are in whole another league. Even if he won Sinnoh tournament, he would still be creamed with trainers from higher caliber. Not to mention as character he still tends to naively enter in battles without thinking and developing proper strategy, having problems in pulling out of his pokemon full strength, lacking knowledge and experience to overcome basic flaws certain type may have and turn it into his advantage etc.

Becoming pokemon master involves becoming strongest trainer in world, so even after winning one league his journey wont stop there. Meaning how we could watch him entering bigger and more challenging side quest than BF was, entering other leagues, battling stronger trainers, growing with his pokemon going on bigger and better things as trainer.

Which is why it's better for characters to go when they're still enjoyable than to watch them get worse as the years go by. I wouldn't have mind at all if DP was Ash's last saga.

Even if character get worse, with good writing that can be fixed becoming enjoyable again.
Writers definitely have knowledge and capability of renewing characters making them enjoyable again doing things right. But some people tend to ignore this.

For instance people thought TR started to be stale in Johto, finding them fun again in AG. Same goes for Brock in Johto or Ash in DP, being renewed capturing audience interest for them again.
Argument how someone should leave before he gets "boring"is irrelevant because character can be fun again, and besides whop is to say new character wont be boring as well?

- Kids growing up with the show today do not know the history of the series, so to them it won't matter.

You already know how that isn't true. Good portion of today kids is probably familiar with some of Ash past regions and series before BW thanks to reruns on several TV stations, internet ad all kind of new media which is today available.

Which they already do for every new main character.

Except that with Ash replacement they would also have to change complete set up and formula which current anime follows, constructing pokemon series from scratch creating new route through which character development will be taken doing complete revamp. There is also need to create new mascot, hire new VA,invent new background and design instead of just using footage they already have at their disposal modifying it a bit. Ash unlike other traveling companions is pokemon driving force and his replacing would require heavy retooling and lot of unneeded work.

Seems to me like lot of pointless work just to bring new character which involves risk of not being accepted well among people lading to drop of ratings.

Also judging by past companions with most not getting proper closure or conclusion at all(Misty, Max, May comes to mind) due to not being developed enough to allow for better. Same faith expects Ash too if he gets replaced after BW with character currently not being fleshed out enough to do believable ending and achieve some significant accomplishment to be imbued with sense of ending from what we currently saw.

Leaving right now is too early to give his character satisfying closure. Writers already did same mistake with past companions leaving several things hanging in air. We wouldn't want same thing happening to Ash as well, right?

He deserves better.

 

[nattfly]

Which they already do for every new main character.

Except that with Ash replacement they would also have to change complete set up and formula which current anime follows, constructing pokemon series from scratch creating new route through which character development will be taken doing complete revamp. There is also need to create new mascot, hire new VA,invent new background and design instead of just using footage they already have at their disposal modifying it a bit. Ash unlike other traveling companions is pokemon driving force and his replacing would require heavy retooling and lot of unneeded work.

Seems to me like lot of pointless work just to bring new character which involves risk of not being accepted well among people lading to drop of ratings.

And all this costs money and time. I can't think of single reason for a company to go around changing a brand as strong as pokemon. And yes I know the anime isn't the whole brand or even the biggest part. But it is the part where the target group gets to see their beloved pokemon as something more than sprites. They get to see them move, battle and interact with trainers and the environment around them. And that's a whole lot of appeal right there. And we have to remember that the anime series is about Ash's journey. Not Brocks or Mistys or Dawns or anyone else we've seen. It's Ash's journey so doing a big overhaul in all aspects of the anime,including the messy, expensive business parts, would be necessary to replace him.

Ash has been around for 15 years and he still WORKS. He still brings in the viewers and as long as the pokemon series don't do badly enough to be considered a liability instead of an asset I don't think they would consider doing such a big overhaul in the series. Besides if that were to happen they would probably just put an end to the anime instead. *shrugs*

 

[Cybersai]

Which they already do for every new main character.

Except that with Ash replacement they would also have to change complete set up and formula which current anime follows, constructing pokemon series from scratch creating new route through which character development will be taken doing complete revamp. There is also need to create new mascot, hire new VA,invent new background and design instead of just using footage they already have at their disposal modifying it a bit. Ash unlike other traveling companions is pokemon driving force and his replacing would require heavy retooling and lot of unneeded work.

Seems to me like lot of pointless work just to bring new character which involves risk of not being accepted well among people lading to drop of ratings.

And all this costs money and time. I can't think of single reason for a company to go around changing a brand as strong as pokemon. And yes I know the anime isn't the whole brand or even the biggest part. But it is the part where the target group gets to see their beloved pokemon as something more than sprites. They get to see them move, battle and interact with trainers and the environment around them. And that's a whole lot of appeal right there. And we have to remember that the anime series is about Ash's journey. Not Brocks or Mistys or Dawns or anyone else we've seen. It's Ash's journey so doing a big overhaul in all aspects of the anime,including the messy, expensive business parts, would be necessary to replace him.

Ash has been around for 15 years and he still WORKS. He still brings in the viewers and as long as the pokemon series don't do badly enough to be considered a liability instead of an asset I don't think they would consider doing such a big overhaul in the series. Besides if that were to happen they would probably just put an end to the anime instead. *shrugs*

This is not true at all. The only reason its Ash's journey now is he's the main character. The anime could go on for as long as the games do without Ash and it'd be the journey of whatever the next protagonist is.

And what big overhaul do you keep refering to? You mean the same thing we see with each saga transition, where the main characters and Pokemon of the group are all changed? I love how you keep acting like this is some "huge expensive" thing, I don't think you know what you're claiming.

Its going to cost money to write a new character, when they write new characters every gen? The only difference is they'll be paying the new VA a lot less than Satoshi's.

 

[Piplup]

And all this costs money and time.

I'm not supporting ending Ash's story, but this is ridiculous
They can easily start a brand new series without Ash if they'll only want to... no, it won't take "more time and money"

And we have to remember that the anime series is about Ash's journey. Not Brocks or Mistys or Dawns or anyone else we've seen.

Officially, the DP series was "Ash and Dawn's story" - as written in the intro text on every opening theme in the Japanese version - while the others were just "Ash's story"
So yes, it IS Dawn's story too, for the DP series... and while they didn't label it so officially, a good part of AG was also dedicated to May
Anyway, Pokémon is mainly, before anything else, about... well, Pokémon
If they'd ever want to replace Ash they can easily do it
I'm not even against the idea, though I'm not really supporting it either
I'm happy with Ash staying and I don't understand people who want him to be replaced, but I also don't like to see people who act as if replacing him is SO "impossible"... it's unlikely to happen, but not impossible to do if they wished to do it

 

[Cybersai]

I was fine with Ash staying through DP because of his continuing growth and stuff in the show supporting that. Ash defeating legendaries, a fierce rivalry with Paul, Champions promising to battle him, having an almost fully evolved Pokemon team, etc.

But BW killed my interest. I can imagine any new male in Ash's place for BW and nothing would be different other than Pikachu. If anything I think if TR go then Ash isn't too far off.