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Who do you guys think is the better trainer?
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Logically it should be XY Ash. You wouldn't normally regress as you experience more (he was literally fooling around in Unova), and he actually progressed to the finals first time ever.Who do you guys think is the better trainer?
XY Ash by far. His strength is shown a lot better in this arc than in any other arc, mainly thanks to 1. a really solid Kalos team and 2. Ash-Greninja. Ash did have great battles in the form of Paul and (ignoring his legendaries) Tobias, but Ash had a much better battle against Sawyer and Alain.
Ash finally beating Paul was a great 3-episode battle, however it didn't change Paul's opinion on Ash, as in the Japanese dub, he already let go of the hate that he had on Ash back in a previous battle and already respected him more. Ash vs Sawyer, however, may seem like it didn't have too much effect, unless you remember that it's kinda like a battle between student and master, a less experienced trainer vs a really experienced trainer. Sawyer losing made him realize he still had room for improvement, unlike Paul, who just walks away with even more respect towards Ash (nothing much really).
Ash had no cheap losses (like Tobias) in Kalos, since he and Alain both had strong Pokemon and an incredibly strong "ace" (Alain has Mega Charizard X and Ash has Ash-Greninja), not to mention this is the first time Ash made it to the finals and, in the process, defeating Sawyer's Mega Sceptile which had a type advantage over Greninja. For Tobias, he brought in a team of pretty OP legendaries, which obviously Ash couldn't handle that well (ignoring his Battle Frontier Battles), making his loss seem really cheap, especially since Tobias's character has not been explained or look into in depth. Alain has a goal in winning the league, which is to prove that he is a strong trainer to Lysandre (and, in the process, also unknowingly complying with Lysandre's ultimate plan). Even though Ash lost it's still justified as we know Alain has trained to be a really strong trainer, and actually deserves to win, unlike Tobias.
And that's not to say how Ash was the entire arc. In DP, he still traveled with Brock, who in a way was still his mentor. In XY, however, he was looked up to by everyone, which helped him become stronger and have more prestige. His relationship with Greninja is scrutinized, too, and how Battle Bond finally activated correctly shows that Ash and Greninja were truly strong together. Don't forget the boss battles, too. I felt like placing the villains arc after the league was a bright choice, as now Ash can show that, yes he may not have won, but he still is an insanely strong trainer. XYZ showed that he almost reached his goal to be a Pokemon Master (sadly, it seems like SM dropped that ideaology)
I feel like other factors that made him better than DP was the artstyle and that it was such a huge jumpback, but imo XY Ash is better than DP Ash
Alain's Charizard was only on that level from collecting so much mega evolution energy.
So because of Ash-Greninja your not going to look at all the "thinking outside the box" things that XY Ash did before that?XY Ash was an outright stronger battler, yes, but DP Ash was the consistently smarter battler, and I would always pick brain over brawn in a fight. It felt like Ash's usual "thinking outside the box" shtick that I love most about him just vanished when he started spamming Greninja's Bond Phenomenon. It's a large factor as to why XY ultimately lost my favour against DP when it finally came time to pick between the two series. Let's do a comparison:
DP: When Fantina stomped him, he agonised over it for several episodes and then came up with Counter Shield as a direct answer to her Drifblim's Hypnosis. This was pure Ash and perhaps one of my favourite Sinnoh Gym battles.
XY: When Wulfric stomped him, we got yet another Ash-Greninja bumrush which didn't directly answer his earlier problems with Avalugg's Ice Body regeneration. Compared to the above, I personally considered this a big letdown.
So because of Ash-Greninja your not going to look at all the "thinking outside the box" things that XY Ash did before that?
There was the Rock Tomb Climb from Froakie which spontaneously evolved into Draco Meteor Climb with Pikachu's Iron Tail, both against Grant's Pokémon, then that led to using Iron Tail to stop Aura Sphere and launch Pikachu high when he fought Korrina's Mega Lucario (a trick I'd like to think would have saved him against Cameron).I'd appreciate if more examples of Ash's outside the box thinking are provided from this series. Nothing imo in XY(Z) exceeds Counter Shield..
My point is that Ash's style seemed to mysteriously devolve into something resembling button mashing in a beat 'em up game whenever he started using the fully evolved Greninja. It's not like he couldn't play clever or unorthodox with this Pokémon in its earlier forms either, look at Froakie's Rock Tomb Climb technique against Grant and how Frogadier used those Frubbles as a mask to no-sell Poison Powder against Ramos.So because of Ash-Greninja your not going to look at all the "thinking outside the box" things that XY Ash did before that?
This. DP put a lot of effort into Ash training his Pokemon and watching them grow. We saw him use their strengths creatively, and he even came up with unique moves and strategies to help him. Counter-Shield was such a big deal that Dawn and Paul decided to copy it.DP Ash, by a country mile. It could be argued that yes, while XY Ash might have had the better output in terms of team strength and league ranking, I definitely feel DP Ash had the better input as a trainer and I feel the input should define what constitutes as a good trainer more, since some of the testaments to XY Ash as a trainer in the series just feel forced to me.
Like how Infernape overshadowed the DP team?This. DP put a lot of effort into Ash training his Pokemon and watching them grow. We saw him use their strengths creatively, and he even came up with unique moves and strategies to help him. Counter-Shield was such a big deal that Dawn and Paul decided to copy it.
And my problem with the XY team, as you said is that Greninja overshadowed them. Because of it, I feel like his other Pokemon (outside of Pikachu and Hawlucha) rarely got to shine or show off their skills. And when they do show off their skills, it doesn't feel as earned as it did in XY, because we don't see much of their struggles.
It definitely overshadowed the rest of the team, but it didn't take that much development away from the others. Gligar got an arc where Ash helped to bring out its potential. Ash traded away Ambipom to let it follow its own path, and trained Buizel. He defended Gible, trained it, and helped it learn Draco Meteor. Even though Torterra became a jobber, it still had a ton of focus with Ash.Like how Infernape overshadowed the DP team?
Taking into account how much of an involved, critical, and important character Infernape was to Ash's intense rivalry with Paul, I'd say it's entirely justified in this case. This was much bigger than anything Greninja got with Sawyer's Sceptile, Infernape wanted to prove Paul, the actual trainer, wrong, not just his Electivire. You can't compare them because Infernape actually had an excuse; this was as much its feud with Paul as it was Ash's. Infernape's unique role in DP meant it needed to get more attention.Like how Infernape overshadowed the DP team?