BDSP Mega Evolution/Z-Moves Discussion Thread

[Silktree]

Sure.

Reminder that even the Galar mascots were unveiled in their powered up forms.

 

[Jimothy]

I think that new forms/megas for the cover mascots are increasingly unlikely (though not impossible). I still think it's too early to say either way about new forms/megas (or simply old megas) for anything else in the game.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

We can't but okay. They could easily just want to hide something like that for the week of release.

Well, these Boxarts are going to stay for the duration of the game's release. You put in a new element to attract viewers to the boxart, not hide it because of marketing cycle that would unveil it in 2-3 months anyways.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

Well, these Boxarts are going to stay for the duration of the game's release. You put in a new element to attract viewers to the boxart, not hide it because of marketing cycle that would unveil it in 2-3 months anyways.

The boxarts don’t necessarily need to unveil new forms. Maybe they just want to hide it this time? Last time with ORAS everyone caught on to the boxarts being new forms and it wasn’t as hype when we found out about primals. I’m not saying there ARE new forms, I’m just this doesn’t necessarily prove that there AREN’T. They always like to keep a few things under wraps until people with review copies leak them, there’s no way to know for sure based purely off boxarts, which some have interpreted as Dialga and Palkia possibly “powering up” to change into a new form, although it’s more likely they’re just powering up their signature moves, you never know.

 

[Norzan]

The funny thing, at least when it comes to new forms in third versions and remakes for legendaries, they always slap the new forms on the box art, at least for some of the main legendaries in the story. Giratina for Origin Forme. the Kyurem forms on Black and White 2, ORAS with the Primals, Ultra Sun and Moon with the new forms for Solgaleo and Lunala.

Obviously they can finally change that tactic and not show the new forms, but it will definitely break the established norm.

 

[swiftgallade46]

The funny thing, at least when it comes to new forms in third versions and remakes for legendaries, they always slap the new forms on the box art, at least for some of the main legendaries in the story. Giratina for Origin Forme. the Kyurem forms on Black and White 2, ORAS with the Primals, Ultra Sun and Moon with the new forms for Solgaleo and Lunala.

Obviously they can finally change that tactic and not show the new forms, but it will definitely break the established norm.

Well to be fair, we do also have Suicune, Rayquaza, Lugia, and Ho-Oh who have featured on third versions/remakes and confirmed that they had not received new forms (though I guess Suicune was before this was really much of a thing anyway).

Idk to me this 90% confirms that we aren’t getting new forms for Dialga and Palkia (at least not in BDSP), but I am still hopeful for that 10% chance.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

The boxarts don’t necessarily need to unveil new forms. Maybe they just want to hide it this time? Last time with ORAS everyone caught on to the boxarts being new forms and it wasn’t as hype when we found out about primals. I’m not saying there ARE new forms, I’m just this doesn’t necessarily prove that there AREN’T. They always like to keep a few things under wraps until people with review copies leak them, there’s no way to know for sure based purely off boxarts, which some have interpreted as Dialga and Palkia possibly “powering up” to change into a new form, although it’s more likely they’re just powering up their signature moves, you never know.

They need the shiny new boxart more than they need the marketing season hype. The marketing season and the news hype would last for what? 2 months? But the game will remain on shelves for much longer than that. The vast majority of the buyers do not follow the promotion cycle and mostly care for what’s on the box and what they have seen as the gameplay. That’s why the shiny new forms to distinguish the new games are, well... on the Boxart.

If they wanted to keep the forms under wraps they’d have just hidden the boxart. It has been done to prevent the reveal of Zacian and Zamazenta till the marketing called for it.

Quite frankly the boxart basically confirms there are no forms for Dialga and Palkia.

 

[Chidamari Sketch]

I'm all for Mega Evolutions coming back. They're my second-favorite main series gimmick after the regional forms; and I'd be a bit more enthusiastic if these games indeed have a more veritable Pokedex, but also had Megas come back.

As for new Megas... I'm a little unsure of that. For now, its more-or-less clear that Dialga and Palkia will be the way they are, but I could see the starters getting new Megas. I'm not hyper-confident that this will happen if Megas become a real thing here, but I think it is a genuine 'maybe', rather than an absolute 'never', I don't know if anything else is prime material to get one, though.

Z-moves... Eh. I'm not really attached to them as I am Megas; in fact I only ever sparsely use Z-Moves in my playthroughs of Moon/UltraMoon. It would be fun experimenting with Z-Status moves again; but I'm not sure how one would even handwave Z-Crystals'/Z-Rings' presence in Sinnoh.

 

[Puddle]

I think it's safe to assume that Dialga and Palkia won't be getting new forms. It's certainly possible that the new forms are being kept under wraps for some reason (Ultra Necrozma, and Zacian and Zamazenta's unarmored forms, were kept secret during pre-release) but I think it's unlikely.

If Dialga and Palkia aren't getting new forms, in some ways I think that's quite refreshing. I actually think Pokemon is starting to suffer from "form bloat"; it would become same-y if they kept slapping new forms on box legendaries. I like that the Pokemon Company has enough faith in the iconic-ness of Dialga and Palkia's original designs to use them as ambassadors for the new games.

I do think Mega Evolutions are a possibility, although I think it's unlikely that there will be any new ones.

 

[Silktree]

Zacian and Zamazenta's unarmored forms, were kept secret during pre-release)

Because they're far less marketable. Ultra Necrozma is a special case, as the only reason it wasn't a version mascot was greed (wanting two versions). It had to be kept a secret for the mascots not to be pushed aside.

Dialga and Palkia? They got their games in 2006, so the only reason to hide forms is, well, if they were deemed unworthy of existing.

 

[RK9]

Poor Dialga.

His signature move is recharge so no one uses it over Draco Meteor.
His typing got given out to a regular Pokémon and is now no longer unique.
His remake doesn't grant him a new cool shiny form like the other Legendaries that went before him.

No wonder dude went all dark and uncontrollable in the Mystery Dungeon timeline.

 

[Esserise]

I think it's safe to assume that Dialga and Palkia won't be getting new forms. It's certainly possible that the new forms are being kept under wraps for some reason (Ultra Necrozma, and Zacian and Zamazenta's unarmored forms, were kept secret during pre-release) but I think it's unlikely.

Ultra Necrozma was "kept secret" in the sense that they didn't fully unveil it - but it was overtly teased by the cover. Meanwhile, I don't think I'd say the armorless wolves were kept "secret" so much as they were just... not shown, in a more casual sense, because the forms that outclass them were the ones that were clearly designed more for marketability. (In that regard, I'd almost say it's more like how they never "showed off" Xerneas's Neutral Mode. There wasn't a big secret to it, it's just that it's basically a less-noteworthy form that exists for flavor reasons more than anything.)

Also, in both cases, story was a factor. I think Dusk Mane and Dawn Wings probably work better as mascots than Ultra Necrozma would, because they're more ominous - you're blatantly depicting this dark force taking over the mascots of the previous games (which implies a change in the story), while teasing that there's yet more to come with Ultra Necrozma's silhouette. On the other hand, Zacian and Zamazenta's Hero forms exist mainly to substantiate the plot of you and Hop having to recover their old weapons and restore them to their true power - but by virtue of the fact that their Crowned forms are their "true," most powerful forms, there's not much point in showing off the forms that are inferior, except to maybe create some mild intrigue about how they get from Point A to Point B.

Vis-à-vis Dialga and Palkia now, the writing is on the wall. They have already told us what these games essentially are: Diamond & Pearl, as you remember them, with a new coat of paint - and if you want something that's meaningfully new, spring for Legends. @PkmnTrainerV is right that there's a big incentive for putting the new content on the box because of what it signals to consumers. USUM were able to exploit that because they already had new cover mascot forms aside from Ultra Necrozma that could create interest - it wasn't like they put regular Solgaleo and Lunala on the cover again and just expected us to stumble across the fact that Necrozma also had a new form. (Or, hypothetically, if USUM were just a single version, they wouldn't just put base Necrozma on the box. In that sort of scenario, you most likely would have Ultra Necrozma gracing the cover.)

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

And they didn’t need to reveal Ultra Necrozma since... it wasn’t on the box art and not at the same time. It was an element that could be mistaken for style by some, and an entirely new entity by others: giving fuel for fan theories. They had 2 shiny new forms on the boxart to attract the attention so Ultra Necrozma took a secondary role in marketing.

 

[Esserise]

If Dialga and Palkia aren't getting new forms, in some ways I think that's quite refreshing. I actually think Pokemon is starting to suffer from "form bloat"; it would become same-y if they kept slapping new forms on box legendaries. I like that the Pokemon Company has enough faith in the iconic-ness of Dialga and Palkia's original designs to use them as ambassadors for the new games.

Oh and on this note, I partially agree. I don't think every remake needs to introduce a new round of excessively powerful forms for Pokémon that are already exceptionally strong. I think for Groudon and Kyogre it was justified, half because of how it tied into the Mega Evolution plot, and half because Groudon and Kyogre's once-unique, characteristic Abilities had been democratized to several other Pokémon in the intervening years, so buffing them up a bit to make them seem more like the cataclysmic forces they're supposed to be makes sense.

But Dialga and Palkia have both stayed viable since they were introduced, and they were given signature stuff back then that remains exclusive to them (even if Dialga's signature move is rubbish). I feel like they don't "need" a boost as much.

Also, pardon my waxing about thematics and that stuff, but I also think it's interesting in the sense that Dialga and Palkia were presented as linchpins of fundamental, universal concepts. From that perspective, they could be thought of as constants - they never change; they are what they are, and there's a purity to that. In other words, this plain and simply is what the ruler of time in the Pokémon world looks like - no ifs, ands, or buts. I know there's the theory that the forms were see are just avatars representing vast, incomprehensible beings, but I think that was always more of a justification for the curiousness of being able to capture these godlike entities in Poké Balls and start feeding them biscuits and making them dance around in costumes. (But who says a God of Space can't enjoy that?)

Anyway, the part I slightly disagree with is the point about form bloat - not because it's not a thing (there really are a ton of forms), but because surely if Dexit is the way forth, bloat isn't as big of a concern?


Edit: Although I guess they could do an Eternamax-style thing where Dialga and Palkia do get new super-ultra transcendental god forms with a 4,000 BST that can't actually be used by the player, hence them not being on the box art, but I just sincerely don't think that's the idea they're going for with these Pokémon. Maybe for Arceus, but not for games that are this conservative.

 

[swiftgallade46]

Poor Dialga.

His signature move is recharge so no one uses it over Draco Meteor.
His typing got given out to a regular Pokémon and is now no longer unique.
His remake doesn't grant him a new cool shiny form like the other Legendaries that went before him.

No wonder dude went all dark and uncontrollable in the Mystery Dungeon timeline.

To be fair, Palkia’s type was never unique to it and Giratina’s became non-unique at the same time as Dialga’s.

 

[RK9]

To be fair, Palkia’s type was never unique to it and Giratina’s became non-unique at the same time as Dialga’s.

Giratina has a cool form for itself and a cool world that people remember greatly. (Plus a great cutscene appearance.)

 

[Kallyle]

We can't but okay. They could easily just want to hide something like that for the week of release.

I think that as far as new forms go, we might get origin forms should we be able to access their respective dimensions. It's not as flashy but still gives us something different while still retaining faithfulness for the most part.

Also, pardon my waxing about thematics and that stuff, but I also think it's interesting in the sense that Dialga and Palkia were presented as linchpins of fundamental, universal concepts. From that perspective, they could be thought of as constants - they never change; they are what they are, and there's a purity to that. In other words, this plain and simply is what the ruler of time in the Pokémon world looks like - no ifs, ands, or buts.

I never thought about the states of Dialga and Palkia being constants as a point against them gaining new forms before. That's a pretty logical reasoning that I think could have played a part in the decision for TPCi and ILCA to keep them as-is in terms of appearance.

I know there's the theory that the forms were see are just avatars representing vast, incomprehensible beings, but I think that was always more of a justification for the curiousness of being able to capture these godlike entities in Poké Balls and start feeding them biscuits and making them dance around in costumes. (But who says a God of Space can't enjoy that?)

Even if they did, do you really think we'd get to use them? I highly doubt such entities would willingly lend such power to the player character, let alone any other human.

I don't think every remake needs to introduce a new round of excessively powerful forms for Pokémon that are already exceptionally strong. I think for Groudon and Kyogre it was justified, half because of how it tied into the Mega Evolution plot, and half because Groudon and Kyogre's once-unique, characteristic Abilities had been democratized to several other Pokémon in the intervening years, so buffing them up a bit to make them seem more like the cataclysmic forces they're supposed to be makes sense.

But Dialga and Palkia have both stayed viable since they were introduced, and they were given signature stuff back then that remains exclusive to them (even if Dialga's signature move is rubbish). I feel like they don't "need" a boost as much.

You just gave me an idea: what if when Dialga holds the Adamant Orb and Palkia holds the Lustrous Orb in BDSP, they just end up with different abilities that fit their powers as opposed to being stuck with Pressure? And the best part is that it doesn't need to even be unique or OP. After all, Giratina gets the common Levitate ability when holding the Griseious Orb, and situations like Zygarde and Rockruff even show that a Pokémon doesn't need a brand new form design and stat changes to have an alternate ability (although in their case those abilities give the access to fancy forms).

Just have the mascot's respective orbs give them these abilities and we'll be good:

• Dialga should get Insomnia since time waits for no man.
• Palkia should get Tough Claws because it tears holes in reality.

 

[Puddle]

Ultra Necrozma was "kept secret" in the sense that they didn't fully unveil it - but it was overtly teased by the cover. Meanwhile, I don't think I'd say the armorless wolves were kept "secret" so much as they were just... not shown, in a more casual sense, because the forms that outclass them were the ones that were clearly designed more for marketability. (In that regard, I'd almost say it's more like how they never "showed off" Xerneas's Neutral Mode. There wasn't a big secret to it, it's just that it's basically a less-noteworthy form that exists for flavor reasons more than anything.)

I got the impression that an element of surprise was intended with the wolves' Hero forms. When Zacian's Hero form first leaked, my initial reaction was, "Wow! What's this? Some kind of ancient/primitive form from the distant past?" It didn't really occur to me that it was simply an armourless version.

Seeing the legendary Pokemon appear out of the mist, in a previously-unseen form, right at the beginning of the game would have been a big surprise for anyone who didn't see the leaks. I regret spoiling it for myself.

Also, pardon my waxing about thematics and that stuff, but I also think it's interesting in the sense that Dialga and Palkia were presented as linchpins of fundamental, universal concepts. From that perspective, they could be thought of as constants - they never change; they are what they are, and there's a purity to that. In other words, this plain and simply is what the ruler of time in the Pokémon world looks like - no ifs, ands, or buts. I know there's the theory that the forms were see are just avatars representing vast, incomprehensible beings, but I think that was always more of a justification for the curiousness of being able to capture these godlike entities in Poké Balls and start feeding them biscuits and making them dance around in costumes. (But who says a God of Space can't enjoy that?)

I like this idea a lot. It makes sense for Giratina to be the only one that can change form, because it's the rebel of the group that went against what Arceus intended.

I wonder whether Arceus, being the ever-constant creator of reality, might never receive a new form for the same reason? Part of me thinks it could do with a new form with a boosted base stat total, to stop the likes of Zacian, Zamazenta and Mega Mewtwo from stealing its thunder. But it's still the only Pokemon to have a "natural" base stat total of 720 without the aid of a held item or battle mechanic, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Anyway, the part I slightly disagree with is the point about form bloat - not because it's not a thing (there really are a ton of forms), but because surely if Dexit is the way forth, bloat isn't as big of a concern?

Dexit does solves the problem in the games themselves (at least to an extent - I think Meowth having four different forms in one game is a bit excessive), but it could end up becoming a bit of a headache for any media that uses the National Dex.

The Japanese online Pokedex is starting to look a bit chaotic with all the Megas, Gigantamaxes and regional forms slotted in between the classic Pokemon (perhaps the English-language version has the right idea by including only the original form of each species in its main listing). The most recent National Dex edition of the Pokemon Handbook includes Megas and Alolan forms on the same page as their original counterparts, but I wonder how they will manage to find space for Galarian and Gigantamax forms in the next edition.

 

[Norzan]

Also, pardon my waxing about thematics and that stuff, but I also think it's interesting in the sense that Dialga and Palkia were presented as linchpins of fundamental, universal concepts. From that perspective, they could be thought of as constants - they never change; they are what they are, and there's a purity to that. In other words, this plain and simply is what the ruler of time in the Pokémon world looks like - no ifs, ands, or buts.

Primal Dialga from the Explorers games though.

 

[Silktree]

I never thought about the states of Dialga and Palkia being constants as a point against them gaining new forms before. That's a pretty logical reasoning that I think could have played a part in the decision for TPCi and ILCA to keep them as-is in terms of appearance.

Let's be honest, it wasn't. The reasoning is probably a combination of not having good design ideas (have you seen any good fanart in the 7 years these remakes have been discussed?) and the games not being Mega-driven like ORAS.