Controversial opinions

[Hidden Mew]

This is kind of tripping me up, though, because people not complaining back then has nothing to do with people complaining now. I began actually following the show when XYZ started, so my perspective might be different from yours, but I still don't think it should be that strange to see people complain about the formula. You have to consider the fact that the gym badge quest has been used since the very first generation until it was dropped in the seventh. Seven generations of gym badge collecting is a pretty long time, and even if they managed to keep it new some way or another each time, people like myself could just want to see something different from just the gym badge and league driving the narrative forward. Sure, most people aren't tired of it, but some are, which shouldn't be that strange.

I think it is strange because I've been following the anime since the original series and became more involved with the online community around late AG or early DP, so I think that's a big reason why it seems strange from my perspective. To be clear, I'm not saying that people are wrong for wanting something different than the Gym badge formula or anything like that. I'm saying that it's just strange when I don't recall that being an issue in the past in spite of how long I've been around the forums. People definitely complained about how Ash wasn't really allowed to win a League, but I don't recall people complaining about him doing Gym battles up until SM. I distinctly remember people speculating that Ash winning the Alola League would lead to him being sponsored from Leon for the Galar Gym Challenge too.

The number of times they've done the Gym badge quest doesn't really bother me either. Not all of the battles were great of course, but they generally gave Ash's journey some structure and gave his Pokemon some time to shine. I'm not against them doing something different, but I don't think that they've found a good replacement for them in the anime yet. Like I mentioned before, the Island Challenge was handled poorly and the PWC is lacking in execution, so that probably is another reason why the idea of returning to Gyms doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

I don't think this is a good idea, either, and I'm not sure why doing something new from the badge quest has to require the new generation being neglected in some way or another. Technically speaking, the whole "world tour" aspect for Journeys could've easily taken place in Galar-and had no real reason not to-which could've helped better showcase the pokemon and region itself. It's kind of the reason why I found the idea of Leon travelling around with Ash, Goh, and Chloe on a roadtrip to be so appealing to me. There's no real gym badges driving that kind of narrative, so it would just be an adventure that could help grow each character evenly. And nothing says that Ash couldn't face off against any gym leaders while doing this-he just doesn't have to collect badges. This is Journeys' fault, admittedly, but there is still potential there that Gen 9 could take into account. Nobody expected XY to come after BW, nor did they expect BW to come after DP, so it's reasonable to expect the new series to change in some way or another, for better or worse.

While I think having a home base clashes with the world tour concept, having their home base in Galar instead of Kanto really easily could have fixed the lack of Galar representation. At the very least, they would have run into more Galar Pokemon and characters at this point. I wanted so badly for Ash to battle more Galar Gym Leaders in the PWC. That would have been such a great way to appeal to everyone, but at this point, I don't think that's going to happen. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a new series to change and maybe they'll be better able to promote the next generation more effectively even if they continue with the world tour setup. Admittedly, I just don't have a lot of confidence about that right now, so I'd much rather them properly focus on a new generation for the next series instead of just putting it on the sidelines like they've done with Galar.

 

[Unireon]

I'd rather have Satoshi going back to the Badge Quest format, even if it means playing safe.
Journeys has already proven that the writers are utterly unable to come up with anything new and handling it in an appealing way.

I agree that Satoshi made so many mistakes in the Kalos League Finals.
To sum, he was just practically asking for defeat by using Onvern.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

The return to a badge quest wouldn't bother me at all. Honestly, I was genuinely hoping to see it return after SM's lackluster execution of the Island Challenge. The badge quest gave the series a great sense of structure. We didn't exactly know what would happen along the way, but we knew our path and our endgame. We knew we were heading for say the 4th gym, and we might see along the way Ash training with his Pokemon and preparing to take on the Gym Leader before the battle. The gym battles have always been something to look forward to, and they peaked in XY. I was hoping to see a return to it, especially knowing how competitive Galar's league is. And there was a lot of speculation that Ash would receive an endorsement after becoming the Alolan Champion. I thought it was gonna happen and it would have been a great way to kick off a Sword and Shield series. Seeing how the PWC was handled made me wish we had a Galar badge quest made me wish we had the badge quest even more than SM did.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

The return to a badge quest wouldn't bother me at all. Honestly, I was genuinely hoping to see it return after SM's lackluster execution of the Island Challenge. The badge quest gave the series a great sense of structure. We didn't exactly know what would happen along the way, but we knew our path and our endgame. We knew we were heading for say the 4th gym, and we might see along the way Ash training with his Pokemon and preparing to take on the Gym Leader before the battle. The gym battles have always been something to look forward to, and they peaked in XY. I was hoping to see a return to it, especially knowing how competitive Galar's league is. Seeing how the PWC was handled made me wish we had a Galar badge quest made me wish we had the badge quest even more than SM did.

It honestly doesn't feel like Ash has really been challenged much either outside of Bea what with him having sweeped just about everyone else in the PWC and even that got shoved under the rug as fast as humanly possible.

 

[RafaSceptile]

We didn't exactly know what would happen along the way, but we knew our path and our endgame. We knew we were heading for say the 4th gym, and we might see along the way Ash training with his Pokemon and preparing to take on the Gym Leader before the battle.

And that's why they became so repetitive after Johto. I'm glad that after almost 20 years of doing the same thing, the writers are trying to do different things, because even if they are perfect, they have some sense of fresh air and some positive things than the already overused Gym Quest formula.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I'd rather have Satoshi going back to the Badge Quest format, even if it means playing safe.
Journeys has already proven that the writers are utterly unable to come up with anything new and handling it in an appealing way.

I agree that Satoshi made so many mistakes in the Kalos League Finals.
To sum, he was just practically asking for defeat by using Onvern.

He just didn’t use his Pokemon for in the right way and his Pokemon failed him (except for Pikachu).
Greninja falling to one Blast Burn is pathetic. Come on, it didn’t even show any fight when it fell. It just falls. Doesn’t even try to keep fighting. That bothered me so much.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

And that's why they became so repetitive after Johto. I'm glad that after almost 20 years of doing the same thing, the writers are trying to do different things, because even if they are perfect, they have some sense of fresh air and some positive things than the already overused Gym Quest formula.

The problem is they haven't been able to execute these new ideas properly. Look at the Island Challenge and PWC.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

It just falls

Actually, something interesting that I noticed about that is the fact that Greninja's transformation faded a few seconds before he hit the ground. I headcanon that was deliberate on Greninja's part, since if he had collapsed while transformed, Ash probably would've as well(see how Ash loses his legs right after Greninja breaks off the transformation).

 

[Sai]

The Gym quest was boring for years but I do think all the Galar Gym leaders themselves should be featured eventually.

Anyway I wonder what a Gym quest could provide after both BW and XY proved there’s no place to go with it. BW tried a back to basics approach and made Ash more like he was in the OS and it turned off long time fans. XY was more action focused but it still resulted in the same 8 Gym formula with Ash losing the league.

And then on top of that we have all of AG/DP with the exact same Gym quest with the same ending of Ash losing a league only difference is DP had Paul to spice things up a little. So what could a gym quest even provide? Ash battling Gym leaders isn’t suspenseful since we know he’ll get all 8 badges even if he loses to 1-2 of them along the way. So that’s why the gym quest was redundant for years and both BW and XY prove that. There’s nowhere to go with it.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The Gym quest was boring for years but I do think all the Galar Gym leaders themselves should be featured eventually.

Anyway I wonder what a Gym quest could provide after both BW and XY proved there’s no place to go with it. BW tried a back to basics approach and made Ash more like he was in the OS and it turned off long time fans. XY was more action focused but it still resulted in the same 8 Gym formula with Ash losing the league.

And then on top of that we have all of AG/DP with the exact same Gym quest with the same ending of Ash losing a league only difference is DP had Paul to spice things up a little. So what could a gym quest even provide? Ash battling Gym leaders isn’t suspenseful since we know he’ll get all 8 badges even if he loses to 1-2 of them along the way. So that’s why the gym quest was redundant for years and both BW and XY prove that. There’s nowhere to go with it.

The lack of suspense never seemed like a problem to me. Sure, we all knew that Ash would eventually get all eight badges to get to a League, even if he had a couple of defeats along the way, but the anime always stressed that it was all about the journey, not the destination. The battles aren't designed to make the audience wonder if Ash is going to win, but rather how he'll win in the end. Plus, I think a lot of fans, or at least kids, would be more excited about just seeing Pokemon battling in the anime. That's how it was for me when I was little at least.

I understand your point and admittedly, the focus on the journey might not appeal to fans when it often ended in defeat for Ash. However, I think being focused on the suspense kind of misses the point of the Pokemon anime being more of a fun light hearted adventure series. It isn't really designed with suspense in mind like that, especially when they generally aren't high stakes for the most part, let alone in Gym battles where they're designed for people to keep trying until they earn a Gym badge anyway. I think that it's also underplaying that the writers don't care about long time fans. This is an anime aimed for children and every series has been pretty standalone because they know that they get a new audience every few years. I highly doubt that they care that BW turned off a lot of long time fans. I don't think that the changes in SM or Journeys were a result to appeal more towards long time fans tired of the Gym badge quest either.

 

[Kurolegacy]

So what could a gym quest even provide? Ash battling Gym leaders isn’t suspenseful since we know he’ll get all 8 badges even if he loses to 1-2 of them along the way. So that’s why the gym quest was redundant for years and both BW and XY prove that. There’s nowhere to go with it.

A structured blueprint for starters. If anything, with Journeys the writers have shown when you give them full freedom to create something entirely original, it really doesn’t pan out especially with their handling of Ash’s goal. You’ve gotta remember, as an anime, Pokémon isn’t made for the people who have been around series after series so to a fresh audience who had played the games, seeing the region and Ash taking on the gym leaders there is an exciting premise especially since they’re getting to see a region in a way that the games never could show. And even as one who has been with this series since the OS, I still love the gym challenge. I mean, I take them on in each game I play so why should I be bored watching Ash do the same? And really, if the prospect of the protagonist of a series taking on challenges in which they may be beaten a few times but come out on top was a bother to me, I wouldn’t be watching a lot of anime or following a lot of fiction.

 

[RafaSceptile]

A structured blueprint for starters. If anything, with Journeys the writers have shown when you give them full freedom to create something entirely original, it really doesn’t pan out especially with their handling of Ash’s goal. You’ve gotta remember, as an anime, Pokémon isn’t made for the people who have been around series after series so to a fresh audience who had played the games, seeing the region and Ash taking on the gym leaders there is an exciting premise especially since they’re getting to see a region in a way that the games never could show. And even as one who has been with this series since the OS, I still love the gym challenge. I mean, I take them on in each game I play so why should I be bored watching Ash do the same? And really, if the prospect of the protagonist of a series taking on challenges in which they may be beaten a few times but come out on top was a bother to me, I wouldn’t be watching a lot of anime or following a lot of fiction.

The Gym Formula in the anime was made for 1997 kids, not for 2021 kids which can have a different interest.
And the main difference between the games and the anime is that it is possible to make spin-off games with other type of focus (like Mystery Dungeon), which is not as easy for the anime, Ash's popularity is a big factor for making proper spin-off longrun animes.

 

[Unireon]

Satoshi is not popular like that as he is rather iconic; people tend to instantly relate the anime with him, and Pikachu, but many of them still don't like or despise him.

If the current target audience likes what the staff is doing now, then they don't have any sense of quality standards.
Which is ironic since children are among the groups that tend to complain the most when something displeases them.

All audiences, target and not intended, deserve something better than the mess they are delivering.
If the plot is not developed in an appealing way or engaging, then people will simply stop caring about it.

 

[Kurolegacy]

The Gym Formula in the anime was made for 1997 kids, not for 2021 kids which can have a different interest.
And the main difference between the games and the anime is that it is possible to make spin-off games with other type of focus (like Mystery Dungeon), which is not as easy for the anime, Ash's popularity is a big factor for making proper spin-off longrun animes.

Can you honestly say that that is what the writers’ intention is when it comes to not having the gym challenge in this series? While people claim that the gym challenge had gotten old by XY, it didn’t stop the writers from adapting the Alola equivalent of gyms with the Island Trials, with the main bit of it that was kept being the Kahuna battles which functioned in the exact same way as the gyms. In fact, even within the games, the gyms have even remained a staple of the franchise. Rather looking at the the timing in which Journeys falls being the 25th anniversary of the franchise, that they created a competition that crossed over all of the regions rather than a single region in a one-off format change for such a momentous occasion. Now, if this was a frequent thing beyond this, I feel maybe it could be viewed as a matter of changing interests but given the timing, this feels more like the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The Gym Formula in the anime was made for 1997 kids, not for 2021 kids which can have a different interest.
And the main difference between the games and the anime is that it is possible to make spin-off games with other type of focus (like Mystery Dungeon), which is not as easy for the anime, Ash's popularity is a big factor for making proper spin-off longrun animes.

I highly doubt that kids nowadays have a different interest in regard to Gym battles. The Gym badge quest has been a staple of nearly every main series game and I really doubt that kids were bored or annoyed at Gym battles returning in Sword/Shield too. It's also kind of weird to say that the formula was made for 1997 kids when they had no problem sticking with that formula for nearly two decades afterwards.

 

[RafaSceptile]

If the current target audience likes what the staff is doing now, then they don't have any sense of quality standards.

I'm sorry to say that but kids doesn't care about "quality standards", they watch what they consider entertainment, regardless of it has "good writing" or not.

I highly doubt that kids nowadays have a different interest in regard to Gym battles. The Gym badge quest has been a staple of nearly every main series game and I really doubt that kids were bored or annoyed at Gym battles returning in Sword/Shield too. It's also kind of weird to say that the formula was made for 1997 kids when they had no problem sticking with that formula for nearly two decades afterwards.

The difference is that the writers in the past had much less liberty about what they can do, so they were stucked with the old formula. Things only started to change a bit until BW, but it wasn't until SM when they had a lot more of liberty, and IMO, it was for the best.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

I'm sorry to say that but kids doesn't care about "quality standards", they watch what they consider entertainment, regardless of it has "good writing" or not.

That doesn't mean the writers can't strive to do better than what they're giving. For instance, my little brother likes BW as his favorite season of the anime and he's actually within the target audience-as long as pokemon are doing funny and cute things, my little bro is satisfied. Still, though, there are numerous other factors to a show appealing to people other than its writing quality. And that's because writing is an art. On the outside, things may seem subjective, but there are layers upon layers of what truly gives makes something "well written". Nobody looks to the pokemon anime for quality writing, now do they?

 

[Die-Hard Dragon Devotee]

I'm sorry to say that but kids doesn't care about "quality standards", they watch what they consider entertainment, regardless of it has "good writing" or not.


The difference is that the writers in the past had much less liberty about what they can do, so they were stucked with the old formula. Things only started to change a bit until BW, but it wasn't until SM when they had a lot more of liberty, and IMO, it was for the best.

Ehhhhh....was it though? Because they really haven't done so good so far in my opinion. I personally think BW/BW2 were the last truly satisfying Pokemon games to date. XY I liked too, more the region than the game itself, but the rivals were lame and the game was waaay too easy overall.

 

[RafaSceptile]

That doesn't mean the writers can't strive to do better than what they're giving. For instance, my little brother likes BW as his favorite season of the anime and he's actually within the target audience-as long as pokemon are doing funny and cute things, my little bro is satisfied. Still, though, there are numerous other factors to a show appealing to people other than its writing quality. And that's because writing is an art. On the outside, things may seem subjective, but there are layers upon layers of what truly gives makes something "well written". Nobody looks to the pokemon anime for quality writing, now do they?

Well, apparently people needs to have standards to like something like Journeys, which is why I mention that mainly kids watch what they consider entertainment. For example, I never cared about the problems with OS or AG when I watched them as a kid, I watched them because it was very fun to see the episodes. Sure, older audiences will find the problems with Pokémon Journeys writing, but that doesn't mean that the main target (kids) can't enjoy the anime and need to have "quality standards" as if they were not allowed to enjoy the series.

Ehhhhh....was it though? Because they really haven't done so good so far in my opinion. I personally think BW/BW2 were the last truly satisfying Pokemon games to date. XY I liked too, more the region than the game itself, but the rivals were lame and the game was waaay too easy overall.

Well so far I enjoyed SM more than BW and XY, and JN more than BW, so at least for me, it was a good change for the anime.
In terms of the games I also liked BW2 more than XY ORAS and SM, I still wasn't able to play the post SM games.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The difference is that the writers in the past had much less liberty about what they can do, so they were stucked with the old formula. Things only started to change a bit until BW, but it wasn't until SM when they had a lot more of liberty, and IMO, it was for the best.

I don't think it's particularly accurate to say that the writers had less liberty before exactly, at least in regards to the Gym quest itself. I think it was more like the games didn't offer a different goal for them to adapt for Ash beyond the Gym badge quest. Many people have speculated that Journeys having a world tour setup and featuring many returning characters is to tie into the anime's 25th anniversary next year. I can't say if that's true of course, but it has something I've heard on and off throughout Journeys' run.