Controversial opinions

[flowerfun]

OK, but "most overrated?" He's not even in the Top 20s.

Well true, I was exaggerating when I said that. Still Manga Red is pretty overrated by the fanbase and I don't see how he's this amazing well-developed character that people praise him for.

 

[Nikita Dracovish]

Most of the people who spout that nonsense probably never read past the first few volumes and are best ignored.
How. Literally how. Who on this planet even talks about him that much nowadays.

I think a lot of them dropped off with the SwSh controversy.

Maybe not nowadays, but there used to be so, so, SO many 'Red is just a superior Ash and isn't a dumbo' weirdos crawling all over Pokemon fandom.

 

[RK9]

The manga is severely overrated and overhyped. No, kids, half the characters being psuedo-Hitler or child abusers and ~aRvOk dEcApItAtIoN~ does not make a manga that's still for children any better or mature than the anime.

While I do see what you mean with the dark and mature point (cause I feel people confuse it with "It has more/cooler worldbuilding parts that make it look more thought out or fit more with my view of how I feel the world should be"), there's no denying the early parts of Adventures were really good, until the game release schedules began properly catching up with all consequences that followed for it. (I'll never forget or forgive them for making both Blake and X two extremely unlikeable and bland characters, with the latter's team just being "starter and 5 Mega Evos".)

However, I think people talking down one or the other just because they like one over the other is even worse. Saying you find one overrated because you like the other does not make you "cool", "hipster" or "quirky" or whatever. You're just doing the same as they do. Both can live alongside each other in harmony and you can like one over the other.

I think a lot of them dropped off with the SwSh controversy.

Maybe not nowadays, but there used to be so, so, SO many 'Red is just a superior Ash and isn't a dumbo' weirdos crawling all over Pokemon fandom.

But this is true though. Ash, at his smartest with his streetsmarts, doesn't even reach 50 percent of Red's smarts in the manga (though, Red did get hit with a more shounen-y stick to fit the mold of the more dense and "can't be helped" archetype that used to be popular for a long time later on). There's no shame in it and while it can be annoying to see, putting them away as 'weirdos' just cause you prefer one over the other ain't it.

He's also barely talked about and when they talk him, it's just that he's a cool dude. Which is true. Adventures!Red is just an incredibely cool and likeable dude.

 

[Daren]

Adventure is in a weird place where in early fandom days "it has Pokémon getting cut in half!" was roughly 90% of why people kept pushing it as good, which has probably coloured how people who were around during that era think of it.

 

[RK9]

Adventure is in a weird place where in early fandom days "it has Pokémon getting cut in half!" was roughly 90% of why people kept pushing it as good, which has probably coloured how people who were around during that era think of it.

Funnier is that that's being pushed as if Arbok isn't able to regenerate. Which is a convenient detail they always leave out. (Those Magmar Giovanni froze did die, if I recall correctly, though.)

 

[flowerfun]

But this is true though. Ash, at his smartest with his streetsmarts, doesn't even reach 50 percent of Red's smarts in the manga.

Ash is literally in the top 8 most powerful trainers right now. I don't see how Red is a better trainer than Ash when Ash is in the M8.

He's also barely talked about and when they talk him, it's just that he's a cool dude. Which is true. Adventures!Red is just an incredibely cool and likeable dude.

I don't have any problems with his personality, he is a generic shonen protag but it works just fine. My main issue with him and why I don't like him is his development (or lack thereof). Simply put; Red barely goes through much development throughout his arc, yet the manga for some reason insists that he's changed and grown "matured" by the end of the story, but we never saw him change all that much until the ending, so his sudden maturing at the end of the arc comes straight out of nowhere. It comes across like Red just magically changed at the end of the arc to give of the illusion that he's changed and matured. But we never saw him develop into this more mature version of himself, he barely went through much of any actual development. He feels like the same character he was at the beginning of his arc by the end of it despite the manga trying to tell you otherwise. I'm sorry but this isn't how character development works; you are supposed to show your character slowly changing over the course of the story, not just have him barely change at all only to magically change at the end to give off the illusion that they've changed.

 

[RK9]

Ash is literally in the top 8 most powerful trainers right now. I don't see how Red is a better trainer than Ash when Ash is in the M8.

Different mediums with different writings. And the anime writing is far from good (all the discussions even show how unbelievable it is that Ash got so far and that the watchbase is very divided on it), so I'd argue that holds literally no candle when comparing the two. Again, it's two different mediums. As long as they are not in the same medium together, that follows the same rules and the same writing, you can't say "He is stronger than him". This is the same energy as those dumb shounen arguments of "Goku would beat Naruto!" while each show runs on its own rules, writing and whatever else.

Red, by all intents and purposes, is very much treated as one of the best trainers in-universe. Everyone was downright taken back by the fact Emerald managed to beat Red (And the only reason he kind of just won was because Red had been petrified for a long while. It's like asking a recently recovered runner to race you a week after he gets discharged after you've won two championships while he had to recover from breaking his leg.) And he's shown plenty of times that he is an extremely good and skilled trainer. That you don't acknowledge that is either because you don't want to, you didn't read the manga or you just outright prefer Ash (Which you can. There's no crime, but to say he's better than Red is just trying to put Red down to justify the other and there's no point or need in that), cause if you read it, you'll see that Red shows on various occasions he's an extremely skilled trainer, especially for his age. (The Elite Four, a group of Elite Trainers so strong that they stood above the law, even deemed him so much of a threat they ganged up on him and had to physically put him out of the running.)

 

[flowerfun]

Different mediums with different writings. And the anime writing is far from good (all the discussions even show how unbelievable it is that Ash got so far and that the watchbase is very divided on it), so I'd argue that holds literally no candle when comparing the two. Again, it's two different mediums. As long as they are not in the same medium together, that follows the same rules and the same writing, you can't say "He is stronger than him". This is the same energy as those dumb shounen arguments of "Goku would beat Naruto!" while each show runs on its own rules, writing and whatever else.

Red, by all intents and purposes, is very much treated as one of the best trainers in-universe. Everyone was downright taken back by the fact Emerald managed to beat Red (And the only reason he kind of just won was because Red had been petrified for a long while. It's like asking a recently recovered runner to race you a week after he gets discharged after you've won two championships while he had to recover from breaking his leg.) And he's shown plenty of times that he is an extremely good and skilled trainer. That you don't acknowledge that is either because you don't want to, you didn't read the manga or you just outright prefer Ash (Which you can. There's no crime, but to say he's better than Red is just trying to put Red down to justify the other and there's no point or need in that), cause if you read it, you'll see that Red shows on various occasions he's an extremely skilled trainer, especially for his age. (The Elite Four, a group of Elite Trainers so strong that they stood above the law, even deemed him so much of a threat they ganged up on him and had to physically put him out of the running.)

Good point, I did forget that lol, I haven't read past the GSC arc yet. I shouldn't have made that dumb comment.

 

[FluffleFi]

Whether its Game!Red, Manga!Red or Origins!Red, Red is just a completely overrated character that some people in this fandom treat as if he's a god among men. Even the Pokemon Company themselves treat him as if we, the audience, are supposed react in awe whenever he appears. As if beating Team Rocket makes him the most bad ass trainer within the whole series.(Let's just ignore how the Sun and Moon protags had to deal with all the evil team leaders and their respective legendaries.)

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

Different mediums with different writings. And the anime writing is far from good (all the discussions even show how unbelievable it is that Ash got so far and that the watchbase is very divided on it), so I'd argue that holds literally no candle when comparing the two. Again, it's two different mediums. As long as they are not in the same medium together, that follows the same rules and the same writing, you can't say "He is stronger than him". This is the same energy as those dumb shounen arguments of "Goku would beat Naruto!" while each show runs on its own rules, writing and whatever else.

It’s conversations like these within the fandom that makes me averse to all discussions on “who would win.” The person who wins is the one the writer wants to win. It’s amusing in a vacuum until people start promoting feats as some weird science.

 

[Nikita Dracovish]

While I do see what you mean with the dark and mature point (cause I feel people confuse it with "It has more/cooler worldbuilding parts that make it look more thought out or fit more with my view of how I feel the world should be"), there's no denying the early parts of Adventures were really good, until the game release schedules began properly catching up with all consequences that followed for it. (I'll never forget or forgive them for making both Blake and X two extremely unlikeable and bland characters, with the latter's team just being "starter and 5 Mega Evos".)

However, I think people talking down one or the other just because they like one over the other is even worse. Saying you find one overrated because you like the other does not make you "cool", "hipster" or "quirky" or whatever. You're just doing the same as they do. Both can live alongside each other in harmony and you can like one over the other.



But this is true though. Ash, at his smartest with his streetsmarts, doesn't even reach 50 percent of Red's smarts in the manga (though, Red did get hit with a more shounen-y stick to fit the mold of the more dense and "can't be helped" archetype that used to be popular for a long time later on). There's no shame in it and while it can be annoying to see, putting them away as 'weirdos' just cause you prefer one over the other ain't it.

He's also barely talked about and when they talk him, it's just that he's a cool dude. Which is true. Adventures!Red is just an incredibely cool and likeable dude.

Just to be clear, the anime is just as kiddy and dumb. Even Shudo, who I will stan to my grave, had to put in blatantly silly stuff. People who go on about how "the original audio for the movie is better" make me laugh.

It's Pokemon. I'm not saying there can't be mature themes of it, which is why I very much love all the Shudo stuff, but people really act like it's Hemmingway.

also that stuff about red you can say the same thing about ash. it's subjective.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Different mediums with different writings. And the anime writing is far from good (all the discussions even show how unbelievable it is that Ash got so far and that the watchbase is very divided on it), so I'd argue that holds literally no candle when comparing the two. Again, it's two different mediums. As long as they are not in the same medium together, that follows the same rules and the same writing, you can't say "He is stronger than him". This is the same energy as those dumb shounen arguments of "Goku would beat Naruto!" while each show runs on its own rules, writing and whatever else.

Red, by all intents and purposes, is very much treated as one of the best trainers in-universe. Everyone was downright taken back by the fact Emerald managed to beat Red (And the only reason he kind of just won was because Red had been petrified for a long while. It's like asking a recently recovered runner to race you a week after he gets discharged after you've won two championships while he had to recover from breaking his leg.) And he's shown plenty of times that he is an extremely good and skilled trainer. That you don't acknowledge that is either because you don't want to, you didn't read the manga or you just outright prefer Ash (Which you can. There's no crime, but to say he's better than Red is just trying to put Red down to justify the other and there's no point or need in that), cause if you read it, you'll see that Red shows on various occasions he's an extremely skilled trainer, especially for his age. (The Elite Four, a group of Elite Trainers so strong that they stood above the law, even deemed him so much of a threat they ganged up on him and had to physically put him out of the running.)

It’s conversations like these within the fandom that makes me averse to all discussions on “who would win.” The person who wins is the one the writer wants to win. It’s amusing in a vacuum until people start promoting feats as some weird science.

Okay but can he beat Goku tho?

(sorry, I had to, lol)

 

[Emmy]

I was thinking about that Sabrina clip the official YT channel put up the other day and it struck me. Beyond Brock and Misty, we really didn’t see much of the other Kanto Gym leaders* post season 1. I know people are sick of the Kanto pandering but I feel like it would have been worth revisiting them some more to see how they’ve grown and changed since meeting Ash and it’s part of why in Journeys that I was frustrated when they subbed Surge for Visquez and why I’m looking forward to seeing Erika in the dub soon. For obvious reasons I would have loved to see Ash face off against Sabrina again so he can prove himself without Haunter’s help, but alas we got the lacklustre PWC instead of some kind of “Grand Tour” through the previous Regions that I feel would have better celebrated the series’ history.

*I’m not counting Giovanni’s later appearances as the TR boss.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Ash vs Cynthia is complete ass. It makes Ash vs Tyson look like Ash vs Paul (and Ash vs Tyson is mid)
Ash vs Leon making Ash vs Cynthia look like Ash vs Hau

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Man, I've once again been away from this thread for too long.

Ash vs Cynthia is complete ass. It makes Ash vs Tyson look like Ash vs Paul (and Ash vs Tyson is mid)
Ash vs Leon making Ash vs Cynthia look like Ash vs Hau

Why, if I may ask? I personally thought it was a great match.

 

[Nicolas721]

I think the Adventures manga is both overrated and underrated at the same time. Overrated because is definitely not that different from the anime or the games, yeah it has more plot and slightly more drama but not to the point I'd classify it as a teenage series, it's similar to Avatar The Last Airbender or Steven Universe, and I'd say Teen Titans is darker. However, it's also underrated because with it being the Pokemon manga you'd expect more conversation around it, like the pros and cons of every saga or the production problems which have increased in recent years, but nope, it's always the Arbok panel...

Another controversial opinion about the anime. I've been rewatching BW and Ash's personality...isn't that bad. I know he has some lowest of the lows moments but on average he doesn't feel much different from AG Ash, with even a splint of XY Ash in that he runs into the danger without thinking. He does things like swimming with his Pokemon to help them, battling Pikachu directly as a way to train or becoming poisoned so he can save a Pokemon. Those moments are definitely more Ash-like than most of the (non-battle) things he does in SM and JN.

 

[Jaye]

Everyone remembers the early BW Ash goofs and the infamous Elesa gym battle. Unfortunately, those handful of moments overshadow the otherwise normal behaviour. Then the whole thing is capped off by him losing a 6v5 against someone dumber than him, so... yeah, little wonder the series and its depiction of Ash aren't given the benefit of the doubt.

As for Adventures: I've read up until the end of Platinum. I liked it, but I didn't quite see what made it so superior to the anime for some people. I certainly see the appeal of the game plot actually being expanded versus the anime's original story with game elements tacked on, but I like the anime's depiction of the world. The manga makes it seem quite small, sticking close to how the games depict it, while the anime adds a whole bunch of new locations and comes up with different ways people interact with Pokemon.

Maturity is such a weird subject because it's so nebulous. It's difficult to pin down a real meaning of the word. The manga is more mature in the sense it's prepared to introduce and resolve real conflict between characters. Characters have internal conflicts which are personal and not limited to their handling of Pokemon, while the anime if a character is feeling introspective, it's because of their mishandling of their Pokemon and not an actual flaw. Its antagonists carry a menace the anime's antagonists do not, which creates a heightened sense of peril. In the anime, the situation never gets so dire you genuinely fear for the safety of the characters.

These aren't necessarily criticisms of the anime, though, because the anime isn't designed to be a "mature" show. It's primarily a whimsical adventure, hence the world is a safe place for children to travel, the majority of people they meet are friendly and helpful, and if things get too dangerous there's always someone around to help. Conflicts are simplistic, often binary, and used to teach clear lessons to the audience. It's an entirely different experience from the manga and that's a good thing. It means both stories can do their own things and appeal to as many people as possible without feeling the need to change.

 

[Emmy]

I'm not actually sure if this is controversial or not, but since the rare opportunity to discuss Adventures has come up, I wanted to say that I greatly preferred Mato as the artist for the series and never gelled well with Satoshi Yamamoto's artstyle once they took over.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think the Adventures manga is both overrated and underrated at the same time. Overrated because is definitely not that different from the anime or the games, yeah it has more plot and slightly more drama but not to the point I'd classify it as a teenage series, it's similar to Avatar The Last Airbender or Steven Universe, and I'd say Teen Titans is darker. However, it's also underrated because with it being the Pokemon manga you'd expect more conversation around it, like the pros and cons of every saga or the production problems which have increased in recent years, but nope, it's always the Arbok panel...

I wonder is part of the reason why fans tend to focus more on the first few volumes was because of how the Red/Blue and Yellow arcs were the only ones legally available in the U.S. for years. Outside of Japan and I think Australia, the other arcs weren't translated until about a decade or so after the initial Pokemon Adventures run. By the time the manga became more widely available and caught up with the more recent games, maybe it was too late for the later arcs to grab more people's attention. The first generation material in general getting more attention could also be a factor. With the monthly release and the struggle to keep up with the yearly video game releases, it would probably be harder for the more recent arcs to stand out too.

I've only read up to the B2/W2 arc. I didn't keep up with the smaller volumes releases since I figured they'd eventually release the full volumes once B2/W2 wrapped up, so I can't comment much on where the series currently is. I like Adventures, but I do think that fans have over hyped it a bit. It is a good series, but it's not really that dark or mature. It's more serious than the anime tends to be with higher stakes, but it's still put in the kids' manga section for a reason. My personal favorite arc is still Ruby/Sapphire, although I think the Black/White arc is a good close second. The Red/Blue arc was fun and I especially liked how they actually did adapt the battle at Sliph HQ since that was always a highlight of the first generation games, but I don't think it's the peak of the Adventures series either.

Another controversial opinion about the anime. I've been rewatching BW and Ash's personality...isn't that bad. I know he has some lowest of the lows moments but on average he doesn't feel much different from AG Ash, with even a splint of XY Ash in that he runs into the danger without thinking. He does things like swimming with his Pokemon to help them, battling Pikachu directly as a way to train or becoming poisoned so he can save a Pokemon. Those moments are definitely more Ash-like than most of the (non-battle) things he does in SM and JN.

Honestly, Ash running into danger without thinking is pretty typical for him in any series. I haven't rewatched BW for awhile, but i do remember thinking that Ash worked a lot better in that series than I initially remembered. It's not surprising that fans to think less of his personality or his skills during that series. Starting off with losing to a new trainer with their untrained Snivy and then the infamous Elesa battle were such huge lows that it kind of cemented the notion that Ash had regressed completely in BW. I think that the real issue had less to do with Ash, in spite of those huge lows, and more to do with how poorly handled his BW team was. Coming right after DP where Ash was arguably at his peak probably didn't help matters for BW Ash either.

 

[Jaye]

Availability of the manga is a major issue. I never see it pushed or marketed in any of the usual channels. It's there to be found if you're looking for it but otherwise you could be excused for thinking it never existed to begin with or not knowing there's more beyond the commonly shared panels from the first series. Maybe this made sense 20 years ago when manga was far more niche and exotic, but nowadays its a much more accepted medium and you still don't see anything about Adventures.

Starting off with losing to a new trainer with their untrained Snivy and then the infamous Elesa battle were such huge lows that it kind of cemented the notion that Ash had regressed completely in BW. I think that the real issue had less to do with Ash, in spite of those huge lows, and more to do with how poorly handled his BW team was. Coming right after DP where Ash was arguably at his peak probably didn't help matters for BW Ash either.

With the Snivy thing, there was at least some justification for it, but the Elesa battle was an utter disaster top-to-bottom. Ash was/is a master at forsaking type match-ups, so for him to walk into a 3v3 with just one Pokemon on the basis it was immune to electric types was just inexplicably OOC. I feel they could have the absolute best thing possible with his team after that and still not recover.